"TheLordOpened HerHeart." Was this Irresistable Grace?

Wes.

Never savingly but the Church is full of the unsaved.
Look at the ten virgins. Five had enough oil the other five did not. All of them were asleep so it had nothing to do with them how much oil they had. People get sanctified by the presence of Christians. Where Christians are there is holy. There is no objection that some have some belief. The same was true of Israel.

All men believe in God more or less. There is a probability that some have such a weak belief that as far as can be discerned there is none. They are exceptions. Most believe in God in one way or another. I don't know why you go on about it as if Calvinists say this is not so because we don't.

The Pharisees believed in God did they not? Those that fell in the wilderness did too. You are onto a loser.

If you are willing I will discuss this with you if you are willing to look for the correct answer instead of just condemning everything out of hand.

johnp.

 

Can you explain the difference?

 

I think Calvanism is religious stumbling block, and not a stepping stone. I was saved by the blood of the Lamb, and none of these Calvanistic banterings is going to take that away. Why would you put a devisive religion between yourself and God?

 

Great point Hillclimber, stick around for a while and keep inserting your gemstones of wisdom.

 

Were unbelievers also saved by the blood of the Lamb?

 

ABSOLUTELY! It is ONLY UNBELIEVERS that are save! Believers already have the promise of Everlasting life. So, everyone who is saved is saved by the blood of the lamb, and that includes former unbelievers....JUST like you and me! Without the blood there could be NO LIFE...because the wage for sin is death! The blood of the Lamb paid the penalty ONCE for ALL!

Now whatever, that does not mean that all unbelievers will be come believers, but for those who do, it is the blood of the Lamb that made everlasting life (salvation through FAITH) for them possible.

 

Let me reword the question. Were those who will never believe also saved by the blood of the Lamb?

 

NO! Do you not know that we are saved through faith? Unbelievers, those who will never believe have no faith in God and that is why they are not saved.

The blood of the lamb is not what saves, it is the living lamb of God that saves! It is the blood of the Lamb that made it possible to be saved through faith.

No one is saved BY blood, no one is saved BY grace. Blood had to be spilled in order to atone for sin. Atonement is god's gift out of his Grace to mankind. The Atoner is God's Gracious gift to mankind. For God so loved the world that he Gave his only begotten Son....The Lamb's blood was shed so that man could have life through faith!

Ya I know that sounds like a contradiction, but it is not, it is a clarification!

 

hillclimber said he was saved by the blood of the lamb. If he was but some others weren't then he is well on his way to becoming a Calvinist.

You, of course, don't believe that anyone is saved by the blood of the lamb, in spite of what the Bible says. Yet you praised hillclimber's wisdom. Interesting.

 

You may be taking the text of the bible entirely to literally.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Jesus' blood was shed ONCE for ALL in payment of the penalty for sin, ONCE for ALL. However, it is not the shedding of blood that does the saving, Atonement never saved a single person, because if atonement had the power to save, the Priesthood would still be in the saving business through the sacrifice of animals. And, the one supreme atonement of Jesus Christ would have Saved All mankind since and including Adam. If that were the case, there is no need for FAITH, yet, the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation all tell us it is man's FAITH in God that is the leading attribute of man that makes man redeemable.

Grace has never saved a single person in spite of what the scriptures say. However, without grace there would be no salvation. Jesus, the Sacrificial Lamb of God, is a gift to man out of God's grace which from God's perspective is Mercy. Yes, God was merciful to the world that He loved so much as to cause HIM to provide the final Once for ALL Blood Sacrifice of His only Begotten son to be PAYMENT IN FULL for ALL sin. The penalty for sin has been more than adequately dealt with, it has been divinely dealt with.

Hillclimber was saved by the blood as we ALL are, because that Blood of the Lamb of God took away the penalty for sin which was death, and now we do not have to die because of sin, we are saved from death. Evenso, it is only those among us who have FAITH in God that get saved! God did all the work of our salvation including the actual saving, but he only saves those among us who have faith In God...God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy spirit.

Don't make this more difficult than it is!

Being a Calvinist is no great distinction! Being a Christian is! Calvinism is nothing more than a colored filter that allows a certain wavelength of light to enter the spirit, while blocking other light! Calvinism is like a flourescent lighted room where Christianity is a Sonlight lighted room. Flourescent lighting is adequate to see some stuff, but Sonlight is very healthy for you. Come out into the Sonlight!

 

Wes.

Really? Are you saying that the bible does not say what it means or do you mean it does not mean what it says?
I have spent a long time trying to think of how to answer your question, "Can you explain the difference?
I think this can be a start to it.
Do you accept the bible as final authority regardless of the writer or would you say certain parts have priority over others in weight of authority?
If you accept to believe Paul or Moses without doubt, as if they wrote the very words of God, you should now say. If you only want to use the words of Jesus as recorded in the four gospels as final authority then we can stay away from those others you don't trust.

What? For it is by grace you have been saved... Eph 2:8. In spite of that? Really?

Being a Calvinist is being a Christian. We do not question the word of God but accept it as final authority in and over our lives. We have the same word in the OT as Jesus had and He never questioned it but used it as it is.
We have to deal with the truth. You keep saying we are creed bound but we say that of you too. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. It does not matter which is which if the truth is being sought because if it is the truth that is being sought then I believe God to be at work. The truth sets us free and only the truth. Where are we to get that from if it is not the scriptures?
What's it to be? Do you believe, "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20.", or not?

johnp.

 

Excuse me?

Johnp, You accept only what you agree with and you know it! Your posts demonstrate that fact! Take 1 Sam 3:5 that you are so fond of using against "unlimited atonement".

You have the right book, the right chapter, but the wrong verse. Here's the text you want to use,

You see, it does not say that sacrifice or offering does not atone for sin, but rather that no sacrifice or offering shall expiate the guilt of Eli's family. Why? Because they refuse to repent of their Cursing God! What obligation does God have toward them?

Do you think for one minute that edict against Eli's house deals with sin? No, it deals with the sinner! The sinners (people) have no atonement, even though the sins of Eli's house are included in the Lord's atonement Once, for ALL for sin. This clearly shows that Atonement is not for people but rather for sin!

Eli's family is not forgiven their sins because they don't want to be. They are UNREPENTANT! The same thing applies to all who are unrepentant! Their sins are atoned, but they continue to rebel against God, therefore they do not seek forgiveness of sins in the manner that all who have their sins forgiven must! The Tradition of Sin offerings was accompanied with repentance! The Repentant heart has it's sins forgiven.

YES, Jesus' atonement for sin covers ALL sin, in ALL times.

Now if I took that passage literally, I would have to believe that God came to Samuel and Physically "stood by". Though we have no proof that he did or didn't, why did Samuel not "see him" in the previous verses? We must therefore not take that scripture literally else we receive a FALSE impression of what actually happened. The writer, presumed to be Samuel, was taking a little literary license by adding the words "stood by". He could have easily said "was near", 'came to me (Samuel) in the spirit', or 'in a vision'. But the Author elected to use the words 'stood by'. By the way, we know from God the Son, Jesus' own words that God is Spirit. We also know from scripture that "no man has seen God and lived". Yet, there are scriptures where the author cites events where Man has looked upon the face of God and lived. So do we take it all "Literally"? Not me! I look for the intended meaning, not the meaning that the words on paper present!

Yes, I do take the words of Jesus as the greater authority regarding our relationship with God, and our condition. The Gospels are the Good News, the letters of Paul, Peter, James, and others, are instructions to us on how to live the Gospel! So for eternal salvation, I stick with Jesus, for temporal Christian living I'm aligned with Paul, Peter, James, and the rest! For historical meaning and Lifestyle I include the Old Testament.

I do not disregard any of the scriptures, I even include the apocrypha for content. If those books were worthy of consideration for inclusion into Holy Scripture, they are worthy of further review.

 

Wes.

So if Paul or whoever says something that opposes what Jesus says then you will take the statement of Jesus as overiding all others even if it is the same writer writing both, such as John?

They may have been included by your mother church but the Apocrypha never was by the true Church.

johnp.

 

Can you point out to me any place where the Apostles rightly take precedence over God the Son?

I did not say that the Apocrypha supercede or override Scripture now did I?

And, YOU assume too much about me and "my church"!

 

Wes.

No you said it was scripture. I do not disregard any of the scriptures, I even include the apocrypha for content. If those books were worthy of consideration for inclusion into Holy Scripture, they are worthy of further review.

Where did I say you said that? Why deny something I never suggested? I want to know why? This is a true mark of the desperate.
Do you now say the Apocrypha is not scripture? Yes or no will do.

Explain what you mean?

Do I? That your faith has more to do with Rome than Jesus Christ?

You say it as an accusation! Animosity is its name. I see you embrace that which you do not accept! And that is simple hypocrisy.

I made a mistake and you love it? 1 Sam 3:5 I said instead of 1 Sam 14 and you go into some Pullitzer prize mode!

So this is to be ignored because Jesus said He died for the sins of the whole world therefore whoever wrote Samuel was wrong because the atonement you say is unlimited yet the writer of Samuel says it is very definitely limited. Did Jesus ever say He died for the sins of the whole world or was that just John?
1 Sam 3:14. Therefore, I swear it to the family of Eli, no sacrifice or offering shall ever expiate the guilt of Eli's family."
Must in your view be viewed as a false statement. Scripture in error.
You can't win on this. This destroys your doctrine and shows me again the difference between the truth and those outside the gates.

The wages of sin is death and it is not the death you are hoping for because the scripture is quite clear on that as well. It is an everlasting punishment of the person in a conscious state forever and ever with the bonus of torture thrown in for good measure not your idea of an instant cessation of existence.

We have the same word in the OT as Jesus had and He never questioned it but used it as it is.
...no sacrifice or offering shall ever expiate the guilt of Eli's family...
They died in their sins and their sins were not atoned for otherwise they could not die in their sins.

I accept scripture and you do not.

johnp.

 

Yes, The apocrypha is scripture....to someone, just as the Koran is scripture to some, the Talmud is scripture to some, the book of mormon is scripture to some, the Constitution of the United states is scripture to some, etc.

I include the apocrypha because it was truly considered for inclusion into the Canon of Scriptures that we now call the bible, and a large body of believers do in truth include it in the canon of scriptures. If I were you, I would not be to hasty to exclude it nor to look down my pious nose at those who do call it scripture. The book of Wisdom for example is a great source of inspiration and guidance for living which one should ponder long and meditatively!

Explain what you mean?</font>[/QUOTE]The question is quite clear. You asked

I take that to mean that you have scripture written by Paul or whoever, that has greater authority than the words of God the Son. So I am asking your for examples of those scriptures.

Do I? That your faith has more to do with Rome than Jesus Christ?</font>[/QUOTE]I have no affiliation with Rome whatever. So how is it that you presume me to be Roman Catholic? What is it you perceive that I believe that estranges me from Jesus?

Furthermore, you claim to be Christian and I claim to be Christian, so why is it that our beliefs seem so divergent?

 

Wes.

estranges Only in the sense of keeping at a distance.
Semi-Pelagianism. Adding and subtracting from scripture and accepting scripture that is not scripture but conjectures made at a time when God stopped speaking. As King Saul. He sought answers outside of God so do Rome and you.
Sin did not destroy mankind but just made him a bit damaged. Rome and you. That he can reach out and by doing can make God love you.

Be careful of those books. They were written at a time God stopped speaking. To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. Isaiah 8:20.
Thank you for the compliment by the way. I accept the prize of pious.

Who's this large body of believers Wes old boy, it would be your mates in Rome would it?

Yea? But not too long 'a'? It was after all a time of silence from God.

Deftly, if you do not mind me saying so. Deftly you turn the question around. I asked you the question the other way round please answer that question not change it and ask me back.
I believe all the scriptures, now I'm going to have to say, in the bible and the bible without the Apocrypha, because that is the level you are into, the gutter, because you say;

All scripture, in the bible and the bible without the Apocrypha, is God speaking to His Children in a letter of love. All is of equal weight and authority. The reason you believe in anything other than the truth is because you don't know Him.

It is God that teaches ask Him. But in fear of leaving you with the impression that I consider you to be Christian I do not.
Jesus said that His sheep would hear His voice. Anyone who can say, " Grace has never saved a single person in spite of what the scriptures say. Has never seen the Kingdom of God. Denial of scripture is possible for the Children of God but your belief that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and people go to Hell, with their sins forgiven, because of disbelief which is not a sin and then there is nothing because they who go to Hell have ceased to exist is nothing short of blasphemous.

This was certainly never penned by a Christian. What do you believe in Wes? It ain't scripture except where it suits you. It ain't Jesus because He only enabled you. And it ain't you because you know your faith relies on you so you believe you can fall away. What do you trust in?
Nothing. Same as Rome.

johnp.

 

Hello mr. messy.

You are not a Calvinist then.

I think she could well have already been saved. She might have been in a similar position as the men that had been baptised by John but had not heard of the Holy Spirit. AC 19:1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

So they were in the same state as most of the OT people in that the Holy Spirit did not indwell the Children of God in the same way as NT people find.

She was empowered to accept the word of God as Paul was explaining it. Accepting the fact that predestination really meant predestination accepting the fact that she was elect, a Royal Priesthood a chosen nation. Praise the Lord! I know how she felt at the goodnews. She received the Holy Spirit in all His fulness.

johnp.

 

estranges Only in the sense of keeping at a distance. Semi-Pelagianism. Adding and subtracting from scripture and accepting scripture that is not scripture but conjectures made at a time when God stopped speaking. As King Saul. He sought answers outside of God so do Rome and you. Sin did not destroy mankind but just made him a bit damaged. Rome and you. That he can reach out and by doing can make God love you.</font>[/QUOTE]Take pride in your labeling, Johnp? It seems about all you can do!
Holding a different understanding of scripture from yours IS NOT Adding and Subtracting from it, and NO where Have I said that I accept as scripture what the true Church does not accept! Another figment of your imagination. Holy Scripture itself declares it is not the WHOLE Word of God. John wrote as a closing note that if all that Jesus did and said were written down, all the books would not contain it. Scriptures tell us that the word of God permeates His Creation. It's time you took the blinkers off!

Be careful of those books. They were written at a time God stopped speaking. To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. Isaiah 8:20. Thank you for the compliment by the way. I accept the prize of pious. [Cool]</font>[/QUOTE]I'm willing to bet that you have read some number of Psychology books, psychology has done more harm to the church than any other factor. So do we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black?

Who's this large body of believers Wes old boy, it would be your mates in Rome would it?</font>[/QUOTE]Cute jp. cute. And this after I just told you I have no affiliation with Rome. You must be 51 cards short of a full deck?

Yea? But not too long 'a'? It was after all a time of silence from God.[/quote]You should welcome True Wisdom from any source, you seem to have so little of it.

We won't play the game your way

I responded with,

You respond with,

You obviously do not have any examples of what you're trying to get me to respond to, so until you do, you'll get nothing more from me on the topic!

Incidentally, The book of Wisdom was widely accepted and used by the fathers of the church up through the 2nd century AD and despite some hesitation and opposition from St. Jerome, it was recognized as being inspired in just the same way as the books of the Hebrew Canon.

You are a liar Johnp, You make claims that I say what I don't say! You're a slanderer, and you haven't got the foggiest notion of who and what I am! So don't ever make such STUPID utterances again!

 

Wes.

You gave advise that the The book of Wisdom for example is a great source of inspiration and guidance for living which one should ponder long and meditatively! Therefore you accept it as scripture because we should only meditate on the word of God.

I have no time for those people if they are not Christians because only Christian psychologists have a hope of knowing what goes on in peoples heads. I have read no books that come to mind but may have come across a book or two. Why?

How many psychology books you read? You said that a large body of Christians included the apocrypha who are they if not Rome?
You are a liar Johnp, You make claims that I say what I don't say! But you said that.

Which one would that be?

You have similar beliefs I never said you were affiliated.
Where did I err in explaining your belief?
Was it Anyone who can say, " Grace has never saved a single person in spite of what the scriptures say. Has never seen the Kingdom of God.
Was it Denial of scripture is possible for the Children of God but your belief that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and people go to Hell, with their sins forgiven, because of disbelief which is not a sin and then there is nothing because they who go to Hell have ceased to exist is nothing short of blasphemous.
Was it, "Grace has never saved a single person in spite of what the scriptures say.? Has never seen the Kingdom of God.
You deny the scripture that is there while you say we should pay close attention to scripture that is not included. And you have a go at me?
Who's St. Jerome that I should listen to him? Are you saying God was frustrated in what went into His book?

I accept scripture and you do not.
" Grace has never saved a single person in spite of what the scriptures say.
And your attack against scripture is at the point of salvation. That belongs to your father.
" Grace has never saved a single person in spite of what the scriptures say.
What do you believe in Wes? It ain't scripture except where it suits you. It ain't Jesus because He only enabled you. And it ain't you because you know your faith relies on you so you believe you can fall away. What do you trust in?

Which ones Wes?

johnp.