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Theodicy

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Aaron

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Your use of the phrase "crept in" is funny to me... I am forced to the image of 'something' but logically know that it is really 'nothing'. An then, the idea that it "crept" as though it had a sinister will of it's own... does this really reflect what you believe? As I understand your beliefe it doesn't (of couse I could be wrong though).
Don't get too sidetracked with the figures of speech. Adam was corrupted.


Would you (or anyone else) address Galations 5 regarding your idea of corruption? In the example Paul employs, the yeast is an additive and it is a 'something', it is not a 'nothing' or the absence of something.
Yeast is just an example of how a little thing in one part affects the whole. Do not be deceived. Evil communications corrupt good manners. Keep an unrepentant individual in your fellowship, and your manners will be corrupted.
 

Aaron

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Not really. Skandelon is a title of Christ, the Petra Skandalon, the Rock of Offence, and I object to his usurpation of it. He won't tell me his real name, else I would use it.
 

humblethinker

Active Member
Not really. Skandelon is a title of Christ, the Petra Skandalon, the Rock of Offence, and I object to his usurpation of it. He won't tell me his real name, else I would use it.

Your information regarding 'Skandelon' provided nothing that I did not already know. His use of it as a moniker is in homage to and not a usurpation of. You have been informed of his intent as such.

While I think it's petty, Skan doesn't seem to take offense, so I'll just consider the source of the slight and move on.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
You on the level of man, we much higher.
Not true. There are many who deny the logical possibility of even God having contra-causual freewill. And we are a unique image bearer of God, so there is no "higher" level of appeal to mystery, only the willingness to accept certain concepts over others.

Where it gets mysterious is when it gets other-worldly, as in the world of spirits. Those things are incomprehensible. So we simply accept the things that God has revealed about them.
Why not accept the same principle when speaking of accountable moral choices of man for which we are held responsible? (response-able)

The natural man, on the other hand, is pretty much naked and exposed to our sight. Even the marrow and bones. It's not too difficult to wrap our minds around him.

So, though you call it mystery, you're really just closing your eyes to the contradictions in your system.
You clearly haven't read all the studies of psychology, philosophy, and all aspects of human behavior out there with endless theories explaining different aspect of man's will. And no, I'm not just talking about the non-Christian material, there is countless theories and speculations regarding these matters. It would appear to me that you are the one closing your eyes to these facts while pretending there are no mysteries left unsolved in this regard.

Again, only in your carnal sense of justice. You think justice demands that a man has the power to do otherwise, but it doesn't.
Even some Calvinists affirm this point. They say things like, "We have the power just not the willingness," which really affords the same arguments against it, but nevertheless it shows that they at least acknowledge this basic principle of culpability.

Will the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? You need to understand that it's the Potter who has the power over the clay.
And you need to understand the context of the quote was Paul addressing disobedient Jews who were being judicially hardened or sealed in their already rebellious condition so as to allow for the ingrafting of the Gentiles. He was not talking about God hardening all people from birth due to the fall into a hopeless condition, while choosing to effectually save a select few.

You see? You equate Adam's way with God's way, and you deny that you think of God as a man?
See what? You completely turn what I've said on it's ear and put words in my mouth again?

When did I equate God's way with Adams? I simply said we are created in His image, as scripture says. Are you saying God isn't powerful enough to create a free moral creature? Are all God's creatures really just like the animals and act according to instinct?

Instinct = An innate, typically fixed pattern of behavior in animals in response to certain stimuli

How is that much different than the Calvinist's view of man's will?
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Your information regarding 'Skandelon' provided nothing that I did not already know. His use of it as a moniker is in homage to and not a usurpation of. You have been informed of his intent as such.

While I think it's petty, Skan doesn't seem to take offense, so I'll just consider the source of the slight and move on.

You should see his reaction when someone introduces him to a guy named Emmanuel, or an Hispanic named Jesus. He goes NUTS! :laugh:
 

Aaron

Member
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You clearly haven't read all the studies of psychology, philosophy, and all aspects of human behavior out there with endless theories explaining different aspect of man's will. And no, I'm not just talking about the non-Christian material, there is countless theories and speculations regarding these matters. It would appear to me that you are the one closing your eyes to these facts while pretending there are no mysteries left unsolved in this regard.
The Psalms and Proverbs pretty much open a man up. You go ahead and read the psychologists.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
I think that about sums it up. :thumbsup:

I'm done trying to have a discussion with Luke. He makes everything personal and turns most every post off the topic and on to non-sensical and unfounded critiques, typically followed by some kind of a puffed up peacock like display of prowess. I try to get through by quoting from some fellow Calvinistic posters and he just ridicules me and them instead of dealing with the content.

I've never put anyone on the ignore list before, but I think he has left me no choice... :(

You're done because you're whipped.

This thread is about theodicy. No where have I strayed from that OP.

Everyone can peruse this and see it for themselves.

So you're baloney about me being "off topic" is plainly false.

Your whole, and I mean ENTIRE, soteriological position rest FULLY upon your ability to back Calvinists up to the beginning of time and force them to explain the origin of evil without them indicting God as the direct cause for it.

I have explained it in CLASSICAL Christian terms- evil as privation.

And you are thoroughly stumped and too proud to admit it.

You want evil to come solely from the creature with no Remote Ultimate cause at all and you think this is necessary if God is to be holy. This is the only way you can justify this all important notion of yours called-libertarian free will. You thought that that position alone exonerates God from being the author of evil. That hope is the only reason this ridiculous notion of libertarian free will even exists.

Augustine's theodicy, which I have been employing, answers this silly notion and destroys your whole soteriological standpoint.

You are frustrated because you are beaten. That is where this threat to ignore me comes from.

And as for this absolute bull about you "trying to quote some [anonymous] Calvinistic posters" from some other mysterious board- this was a desperate attempt to get leverage.

It is PLAINLY desperate because NONE of them are authorities on any of these matters and you act as if they should have anything at all to add to this conversation.

That would be like me going to some Arminian board and pulling up some anonymous Arminians who argue that evil IS privation.

What POSSIBLE good could come of that.

It is silly at best.

You are whipped and you are frustrated and that's where this childish threat to ignore me comes from.

Calvinism represents the teachings of the Word of God.

You can no longer contend otherwise in this thread and against me- so you're done.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
You said the ability for one to choose to reject Christ (i.e. sin) comes from their deficiency. But you never answered the question, a deficiency of what?

So, you see, you define evil the exact same way that Luke is doing.

Exactly.

Skan doesn't see it yet, but you cannot account for the the origin of evil without calling it a deficiency- a privation.

Evil is what God is NOT.

NOT is privation. If I am NOT healthy I have a deficiency of health. NOT is privation or as Skandelon rightly put it a "deficiency".

Evil is the privation of the goodness of God.

Augustine, the greatest theological mind in history, argued this very thing. Evil as privation.

Evil is the absence of good.

Any INTENT that arises in a scenario where good is "deficient", as Skandelon himself recognizes, will be evil.

Endued fully with the goodness of God we cannot sin.

Sin is only possible when there is, as Skan put it, a DEFICIENCY of good.

This word "deficiency" that Skandelon employs proves that he cannot argue against the idea of evil as privation.

Aristotle noticed this fact even before Augustine. This should be no problem, for all truth is God's truth. Facts are facts and what God allows and enables man to discover is perfectly discoverable. Bad philosophy ought to be condemned but good philosophy is useful.

Here is part of an article I found that deals rightly in this quote with the Augustinian theodicy:

Augustine adopted the distinction, made by the Greek philosopher Aristotle, that everything has its opposite, so that darkness is the absence of light, poverty is the absence of wealth and evil is the absence of good. Whereas goodness is completion (Latin habitus) evil is a lack (privatio) and, as such, is “ no substance, but the perversion of the will, turned aside from God.” As a result, “ There can be no evil where there is no good ... Nothing evil exists in itself, but only as an evil aspect of some actual entity.” From this he comes close to the view of Mrs Eddy. He asks, " What, after all, is anything we call evil except the privation of the good ( privatio boni.)? In animal bodies, for instance, sickness and wounds are nothing but the privation of health. When the cure is effected, the evils that were present (sickness and wounds) do not retreat and go elsewhere. Rather they simply do not exist any more."

(Augustine. Enchiridion. 3.11)
In fact he is not denying the reality of evil but saying that it is a defect. [As Skandelon rightly noted; "defect" is the root of Skandelon's word "deficiency"]
Thus blindness is a defect, the absence of sight, but this absence is real enough. What this account of evil does is to clear God of blame for evil. God is actively involved in good acts but not in evil acts, because in the latter he is withholding his goodness, whereas in the former he is performing it.

The Augustinian Theodicy.

The Augustinian model is based on the traditional interpretation of the Bible. God created a ‘very good’ world in which he placed the first human beings, who were made in the ‘image of God’. This is usually understood to mean that they had a spiritual as well as a physical nature. Adam and Eve were in harmony with God, the animal creation and one another. They were given freewill, which they used to disobey God and, as a result, the three harmonious relationships were broken. Although Augustine believed in the literal truth of the story its meaning is not affected if it is regarded as a parable about every man and every woman. It rightly reflects the common experience that human beings are responsible for a great deal of suffering in the world because they choose to do wrong. It also correctly observes that this, in turn, leads to disharmony within the human race and towards the animal world as well as damage to the environment. What it fails to explain is natural calamities and animal suffering, which most people believe existed long before man came into existence. Actually Augustine could explain this on the basis of a prior fall of angels, led by Lucifer (the Devil), who were
given charge of the world and have deliberately distorted nature in an attempt to hit back at God. Their rebellion consisted of causing animals to prey upon one another as well as upsetting the stability of the earth’s crust thus causing earthquakes and volcanoes. The view can be criticised on several counts. There is the problem, first raised by Friedrich Schleiermacher of why the first creatures, angels or humans, whose natures contained no
flaw and who lacked nothing, would have sinned, even if they were formally free to do so, when they were in the presence of God and enjoying his happiness. The Bible does not say that man was originally in the full presence of God. In a sense the first beings did not have everything, for they were limited in power. It only required the desire for something that cannot be obtained, like having total power to become like God, for sin to occur.

This accurately represents Augustine's theodicy (though it is too breif to encapsulate it). Man was created with free will (not libertarian free will mind you) and because there was a deficiency [as Skandelon put it] of good in them they were able with that free will to sin. Sin is the act that evil which is a deficiency of good causes. Ever since man has been in bondage to sin.

Evil exists.

Either God is not all powerful and cannot do anything about it though he would if he could...

OR...

God is all powerful and evil himself because he could stop it but allows it...

OR...

God is all powerful and perfectly good but good is not defined by human suffering or the lack thereof but rather by that which ultimately brings God the most glory.

The last statement is the biblical teaching.
Suffering of sinners brings God glory (vindicates his holiness).
Salvation of sinners brings God glory (magnifies his love).

Arminians believe the first statement. They state it this way "God RESTRICTS his omnipotence and Sovereignty by man's free will." This is philosophical madness. God cannot be all powerful and restrict his power at the same time. Restricted power is LIMITED power. Omnipotence is by definition the dead level OPPOSITE. It is UNLIMITED power.
And God can be completely Sovereign over all things and events- the biggest and smallest of them and all of them in between- and restrict that sovereignty at the same time.

Neither can God do evil or tempt man to do evil.

So who authored evil?

Skandelon says man did and offers NO explanation as to how.

Some determinists argue that God did and if you don't like it- TOO BAD!

But the RIGHT answer is NOBODY.

Only things that are THINGS have authors.

Darkness does not have an author.

Nobody made it in a lab and God did not create it. Why? Because darkness is nothing but privation.

It is just a word we use to describe a void of light.

And so is evil.

EVIL HAS NO DIRECT AUTHOR BECAUSE EVIL IS NOTHING BUT PRIVATION OF GOOD.

We say of things that they are good or not good.

Evil is simply the latter.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
What caused the accident? Nothing.
What caused the death? Nothing.
What caused evil? Nothing.

Or, as Luke's most recent post said it: "Nothing but. . . ."

I can totally see why the analogies muddle things up; and I have to admit, I'm hesitant to attempt this discussion with my 12-yr old son, much less a group of 2nd or 3rd graders.

BUT SKAN, you're missing the "big picture" point of Luke's position: you're asking about where evil and evil intentions came from, and he's told you--they derive from an incapability of good. The incapability comes from good either not being present to begin with, or having been removed.

The crux of Luke's position lies with "opposites": light or dark, hot or cold, good or evil. If you don't have one, then only the other remains. I believe his position allows for no middle ground, which kinda goes against quantum theory, but that's me being facetious and introducing a rabbit trail we may not want to follow. . . . ;o

Winman, this addresses your question, too.

The analogies are not my own but come from some of the greatest theological and philosophical minds that have ever lived and these analogies have been used for nearly two thousand years to express a Christian theodicy.

To say that my analogies which are actually the analogies of men of the caliber of Augustine muddy up anything in a discussion on theodicy is to be terribly mistaken.

Evil is privation.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Scan, just answer the question. In what quality are those who reject Christ deficient?

Faith...humility....


They choose not to believe what has clearly been revealed. In pride, they "trade the truth in for a lie" and "they perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

I can anticipate your response. I expect you to ask where faith and humility come from...and I will tell you AGAIN they are given by God, but not through irresistible means; and you will once again tell me that issue is a "peripheral matter," and then dismiss it. :sleep:
 

Aaron

Member
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Faith...humility....
So a deficiency in the fruits of the Spirit results in one's rejection of the Holy Spirit? How does another receive Him? Are you saying that some have the fruits of the Spirit by nature so they can receive Him when He's offered?
 

humblethinker

Active Member
So a deficiency in the fruits of the Spirit results in one's rejection of the Holy Spirit? How does another receive Him? Are you saying that some have the fruits of the Spirit by nature so they can receive Him when He's offered?

love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control

Are you saying that an unregenerate mother cannot have any of these qualities?
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
So a deficiency in the fruits of the Spirit results in one's rejection of the Holy Spirit?
A deficiency in the fruits of the Spirit? Where did you get that?

Faith comes through hearing. And humility is often the result of trail and error and the circumstances...i.e. eating from a pig trough can do wonders to one's pride.

How does another receive Him? Are you saying that some have the fruits of the Spirit by nature so they can receive Him when He's offered?
No. I am saying God provides what is needed for men to respond in faith, but not by effectual/irresistible means.

What you need to realize is that the drive to explain a truly free choice in the manner you are (i.e. "what determined someone to choose him?") is really just a game of question begging because it assumes that a deterministic explaination is required. Ciocchi, who debated Feinberg, put it this way: "the choice between available options "is what free will is all about . . ., and it is finally mysterious, beyond full explanation, for full explanations presuppose the very determinism the libertarian rejects..."
 
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