There are two Israels...

[Jarthur001]

Maybe you could just state your point without harassing him.

My point is that we all post opinions. I have one..you have one. So what Allan says for others, can be said toward him....and I just did. Call it harassing if you want. If I harassed him, I used his own words to harass. What does this say about his post? But I know Allan is better then this, and he will raise to the level that makes him a good debater

Opinions....This is what the debates are about. To bring this up each time, is pointless.

I say this not to agree nor disagree with his views on the subject. I say it to point out his folly.

 

[Revmitchell]

My point is that we all post opinions. I have one..you have one. So what Allan says for others, can be said toward him....and I just did. Call it harassing if you want. If I harassed him, I used his own words to harass. What does this say about his post? But I know Allan is better then this, and he will raise to the level that makes him a good debater

Opinions....This is what the debates are about. To bring this up each time, is pointless.

I say this not to agree nor disagree with his views on the subject. I say it to point out his folly.

So now that you have made your point you can move on?

 

[J.D.]

Maybe you could just state your point without harassing him.

This is just your opinion so who cares?


...see what I mean?

 

[J.D.]

Yes, let's get back on topic.

See my question for Pastor Larry.

If there is an "Israel according to the flesh", doesn't that mean that there must be an "Israel NOT according to the flesh"?

 

[ray Marshall]

Sorry, but Gill's opinions are nothing more than his opinions of what the scripture is saying and not necessarily what scripture is actaully saying.

To use Gill's opinions or any other who holds to such a view means that you will acknowledge all others veiws that differ just as truthful and accurate a renderings as Gill

I don't put too much in man's comunataries (?) The're just men's opinions, but the Bible speaks of two separate Israels and we Primitive Baptist have no trouble accepting it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

But what about the other scripture I mentioned? Doesn't the fact that Paul mentions an "Israel according to the flesh" mean that there must be an "Isreal NOT according to the flesh"?

No. Read Romans 9. True Israel is those who are both genetically descendants of Abraham and have the faith of Abraham. In other words, in Romans 9, the second group is a subset of the first.

 

[OldRegular]

No. Read Romans 9. True Israel is those who are both genetically descendants of Abraham and have the faith of Abraham. In other words, in Romans 9, the second group is a subset of the first.

I repeat: The Apostle Paul certainly teaches that Spiritual Israel and the Church are the same. Simply read the parable of the olive tree in Romans 11.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The Apostle Paul certainly teaches that Spiritual Israel and the Church are the same. Simply read the parable of the olive tree in Romans 11.

Repeating it wont' make it true. It simply isn't true. The NT makes consistent distinctions between Israel and the church.

 

[Amy.G]

No. Read Romans 9. True Israel is those who are both genetically descendants of Abraham and have the faith of Abraham. In other words, in Romans 9, the second group is a subset of the first.

No. True Israel consists of those who have been circumcised in the heart, not the flesh.

If what you say is true, then then proselytes could not have been part of true Israel because they were not actual descendants of Abraham.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Romans chapter 11 teaching very clear about the olive tree. Itself is all about Jesus Christ-salvation. Same with John 15:1- Christ is "the true vine". At first, all Jews were in vine. Gentiles were wild branches, ans were separated from the commonwealth of Israel as strangers. When Christ came to earth, he died on the cross, he made both Jews and Gentiles reconciled together became one. Any jews who are disbelief, are removed from the tree. But, the remain believing Jews are still in tree. God added Gentiles upon tree join with believing Jews together, "so ALL Israel shall be saved", Gentiles or Church does replaced Israel. Israel is now expanding because God already graft Gentiles into tree join with believing Jews together. Tree is all about belief and abide. If anyone do not remain belief or not abide in Christ, shall be removed from tree same with John 15:4,6.

Romans chapter 11 is not talk about carnal natural Israel as earthly nation. It talks about spiritual -salvation, if anyone is in Christ is salvation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[OldRegular]

Repeating it wont' make it true. It simply isn't true. The NT makes consistent distinctions between Israel and the church.

Not between Spiritual Israel, the believing remnant, and the Church.

 

[OldRegular]

Good points AmyG and DeafPosttrib!:thumbs:

 

[Pastor Larry]

True Israel consists of those who have been circumcised in the heart, not the flesh.

Correct, but a true Israelite could never be less than an Israelite.

If what you say is true, then then proselytes could not have been part of true Israel because they were not actual descendants of Abraham.

Correct to some degree. But remember they were proselytes to the nation of Israel. They were not their own entity. But they did not have all the prerogatives of Israelites.

 

[Pastor Larry]

When Christ came to earth, he died on the cross, he made both Jews and Gentiles reconciled together became one.

Exactly. This is called the church. It isn't called Israel in the NT.

God added Gentiles upon tree join with believing Jews together, "so ALL Israel shall be saved", Gentiles or Church does replaced Israel.

Incorrect. "So all Israel will be saved" is referring to the Israel. Again, simply read the context. A hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. You would have us believe that God hardens his church (Israel). But clearly, Israel in that context is national Israel. Not the church. They are hardened, folks.

Romans chapter 11 is not talk about carnal natural Israel as earthly nation. It talks about spiritual -salvation, if anyone is in Christ is salvation.

It is actually talking about both ... the spiritual salvation of national Israel. If you simply read the passage and insert "church" everytime you see Israel, you will very quickly see the absurdity that you are proposing.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Not between Spiritual Israel, the believing remnant, and the Church.

This is simply untrue. Again, all we need to do is read the passages and exhcnage "Israel" for "church." It is absurd and will make you laugh if you read it carefully. It makes no sense.,

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Pastor Larry,

Excuse me, I was typed 'replaced' in bold word. I made mistake. I should say: "Church does NOT replaced Israel". Israel is now expanding. Church never replace Israel.

Church in Greek word Ekkias means called out. There were many ekkias in the Old Testament in LXX translation and also in Greek before 1611 A.V. translated it. Clearly, Church was rigght there in the Old Testament long before Christ came to earth.

Church is also simple mean God's people, well also, Israel simple mean God's people, both are no difference.

God don't care what race, color people we are. God interests that we are IN Christ by through the faith. Either Jew or Gentile who have faith in Jesus, are on the same boat - salvation. Well also, we have abide in Christ, as we are on the same tree, which remain believing Jews are already in. We are the Israel of God. This is speaking of spiritual nation - 2 Peter 2:9.

Understand clear?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Larry,

Nowhere in Romans chapter suggests that there will be literal earthly physical nation as rebirth nation again in the future.

Romans chapter 11 deals about salvation which is IN Jesus Christ as tree. Tree pictured of a Cross.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[J.D.]

No. Read Romans 9. True Israel is those who are both genetically descendants of Abraham and have the faith of Abraham. In other words, in Romans 9, the second group is a subset of the first.

Okay, let's agree that "Israel NOT according to the flesh" is believing genetic jews. But can we say that this subset consists ONLY of genetic Jews when we consider these scriptures:

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,...................For he is our peace, who hath made both one...............That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel (from Eph 2 & 3)

 

[OldRegular]

This is simply untrue. Again, all we need to do is read the passages and exhcnage "Israel" for "church." It is absurd and will make you laugh if you read it carefully. It makes no sense.,

The truth never makes me laugh! Obstinacy does!:laugh: Anyhow I never said anything about replacing the word Church with Spiritual Israel. The OT never uses the term Spiritual Israel but it does speak of the believing remnant, though perhaps not in those exact words.

Even Scofield in his original reference Bible states that the Song of Solomon [Old Testament] is an allegory of the love of Jesus Christ for His Bride, the Church.

 

[Navymans]

Ok I am planning on going there this spring, now I am confused which one of the two do I book the trip for? I dont want to end up at the wrong one..lol