There is No Natural Goodness in Me

[Craigbythesea]

Then you do not know yourself, or others, as you need to.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Isaiah 64:6. We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy cloth.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. (NRSV [and many others similarl]y)

We have here an unregenerate Jew writing about unregenerate Jews and what they have become—NOT what they had been before in their natural state.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5:16. Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want.
18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. (NRSV)

We have here, as in Romans 7:14-25, the unregenerate Jew under the Law being unable to do what he really wants to do. But if we are led by the spirit, we are NOT subject to the Law and the inabilities that it causes.

Philippians 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

20ἡμῶν γὰρ τὸ πολίτευμα ἐν οὐρανοῖς ὑπάρχει, ἐξ οὗ καὶ σωτῆρα ἀπεκδεχόμεθα κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, 21ὃς μετασχηματίσει τὸ σῶμα τῆς ταπεινώσεως ἡμῶν σύμμορφον τῷ σώματι τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ κατὰ τὴν ἐνέργειαν τοῦ δύνασθαι αὐτὸν καὶ ὑποτάξαι αὐτῷ τὰ πάντα. (NA28)

Philippians 3:20. But our citizenship is in heaven, and it is from there that we are expecting a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
21. He will transform the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, by the power that also enables him to make all things subject to himself. (NRSV)

The Greek word ταπείνωσις translated in the KJV as “vile” does not express the concepts of sin or sinfulness anywhere in the New Testament or in any other early Christian literature. This abominable error in the KJV was one of the reasons why it was deemed necessary to officially revise the KJV. The New Testament portion was revised first and republished in May, 1881 with a new title page reading,

THE HOLY BIBLE CONTIANING THE OLD AND NEWTSTAMENTS TRANSLATED OUT OF THE ORIGINAL TONGUES: BEING THE VERSION SET FORTH A.D. 1611 COMPARED WITH THE MOST ANCIENT AUTHORITES AND REVISED.

Philippians 3:20-21, in the Revised Version reads,

Philippians 3:20. For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21. who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself.

 

[Van]

Total Spiritual Inability is an obviously false doctrine, for everyone believing into Christ will be saved. And born anew believers were created for good works, so goodness is part of their very nature in Christ.

Here is the biblical doctrine. All humans since Adam, are conceived in iniquity, made sinners, as a consequence of Adam's sin. But where we Baptists are divided is the extent of the corruption. Can the lost understand "spiritual milk" as indicated by 1 Corinthians 3:1, or does "the things" of 1 Corinthians 2:14 actually mean "all things."

Most of the supporters of "all things" ignore the implied capability in 1 Corinthians 3:1, and simply act like "the things" means "all the things."

Thus the claim there is no "goodness" (read inability to seek God and trust in Christ) in natural (lost) people.

The falsity of the premise is proclaimed by the very verses cited.

1) With my mind am serving the Law. Romans 7:5

2) With those in accord with the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:5 Here the lexicon indicates "accord" refers to those who have set their minds not on the flesh, but have separated from that condition and are exhibiting things of the Spirit.

3) Galatians 5:17 is addressing born anew believers, created for "good" works, thus having goodness within them.

4) Proverbs 16:6, by reverence for the Lord one keeps away from evil. The OT believers in God could fear God, not wanting to offend Him, thus having reverence for Him. More goodness on display within the non-regenerate.

 

[kyredneck]

How many times does this need to be explained, the context teaches "the things" are not "all the things" but only the "spiritual solid food things" for Paul uses the "spiritual milk things" to speak to "men of flesh."

The context shows two kinds of men.

One is born of the spirit and is able to know the things of God:

12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.

The other is the natural man, void of the spirit, and is unable to discern the things of the spirit of God (John 3:3), in fact they're foolishness to him (1 Corinthians 1:18):

14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[robycop3]

"The transgressions of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes."—Psalms 36:1.

How striking is this scripture, and how true! Yes, my soul; thou needest not to look abroad into another's heart to see iniquity; for at home, in thine own, a voice may be heard continually proclaiming it. Renewed as thou art by grace, still thou feelest the workings of corrupt nature: and though, as the apostle said, "with thy mind thou thyself servest the law of God, yet with thy flesh the law of sin," Romans 7:25. Pause over the solemn subject, and observe the working of a body of sin and death, which is virtually all sin: "the carnal mind, (the apostle saith) is enmity against God," Romans 8:7; not only an enemy, but in enmity: so that the very nature is so; it is averse, naturally averse to God, and is everlastingly rising in opposition to his holy law. And this not only (as some have supposed, but all men, if they would confess the truth, find to the contrary) before a work of grace hath passed upon the soul, but after. Else wherefore doth the apostle say, "the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other, so that ye cannot do the things that ye would?" Galatians 5:17. He saith this to the regenerate, to the church at large. And consequently this conflict is after grace hath been manifested to the soul, and not before. A sinner unawakened may indeed feel at times compunctions of conscience, and be alarmed at what will be the consequence of his sins: but these are only the alarms of conscience, not the workings of grace: and for the most part, these alarms are but momentary. His affections are all on the side of sin. His soul still remains "dead in trespasses and sins;" and he himself, like a dead fish, swims down the stream of sin uninterrupted, without resistance, and without concern. But when a child of God is renewed, and the soul, that was before dead in trespasses and sins, becomes quickened and regenerated; then it is that the conflict between the renewed part in grace, and the unrenewed part in nature, begins, and never ends but with life. My soul, hath the Lord taught thee this, made thee sensible of it, and caused thee to groan under it? Dost thou find this heart of thine rebelling against God; cold to divine things, but warm to natural enjoyments; framing excuses to keep thee from sweet communion with the Lord; and even in the moment of communion, running with a swarm of vain thoughts, that "like the flies in the ointment of the apothecary causeth it to send forth an ill savour?" Are these in thy daily, hourly, experience? Why then the transgressions of the wicked saith within thine heart, and not another's for thee, this solemn truth, there is no fear of God at such seasons before the eyes of thy sinful body: "for by the fear of the Lord, men depart from evil," Proverbs 16:6. Oh! precious, precious Jesus! how increasingly dear, under this view of a nature so totally corrupt, art thou to my poor soul! What but the eternal and unceasing efficacy of thy blood and righteousness could give my soul the smallest confidence, when I find that I still carry about with me such a body of sin and death? Let those who know not the plague of their own heart, talk of natural goodness; sure I am, there is nothing of the kind in me. "I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing." And were it not, dearest Lord, for the holiness of thy person, blood, and righteousness, the very sins which mingle up with all I say or do, yea, even in prayer, would seal my condemnation. Lamb of God! it is the everlasting merit of thy atonement and intercession, thy blood sprinkled upon my person and offering, by which alone the justice of God is restrained and satisfied, and that it breaks not forth in devouring fire, as upon the sacrifice of old, to consume me upon my very knees! Blessed, blessed for ever be God for Jesus Christ!

- Robert Hawker, The Poor Man's Morning and Evening Portions, May 10, Evening

Here's that verse in OUR English, easily understandable, from the NKJV-
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David the servant of the Lord.

36 An oracle within my heart concerning the transgression of the wicked:
There is no fear of God before his eyes.

 

[Silverhair]

Wrong.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2

Off track KY, you have read into the text what you want t o find.

Just as a person’s own spirit knows what is going on inside that person, so only the Spirit of God knows what is going on within God. This does not mean that man can not know the truths that God has made plain for all to see or hear. God has provided many ways for man to know about Him whether creation, the gospel message or the conviction of the Holy Spirit. So while the natural man can not know the mind of God he can know the truths of God regarding salvation. We see this clearly in Act_13:46-48 The Jews and Gentiles heard the gospel message preached by Paul & Barnabas but while the Jews rejected the message some of the Gentiles were over joyed and trusted in Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

Off track KY, you have read into the text what you want t o find.

Not.

The context shows two kinds of men.

One is born of the spirit and is able to know the things of God:

12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.

The other is the natural man, void of the spirit, and is unable to discern the things of the spirit of God (John 3:3), in fact they're foolishness to him (1 Corinthians 1:18):

14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[kyredneck]

17 And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. Mt 19

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God. Mk 10

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, even God. Lu 18

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep. Jn 10

 

[kyredneck]

How many times does this need to be explained, the context teaches "the things" are not "all the things" but only the "spiritual solid food things" for Paul uses the "spiritual milk things" to speak to "men of flesh."

Where did you get the idea that "the things of the Spirit of God" should really have been written "the spiritual solid food things of the Spirit of God"?

Lol, that's 'essential Vanology', alter the text to get the desired effect.

 

[Silverhair]

Not.

The context shows two kinds of men.

One is born of the spirit and is able to know the things of God:

12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.

The other is the natural man, void of the spirit, and is unable to discern the things of the spirit of God (John 3:3), in fact they're foolishness to him (1 Corinthians 1:18):

14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Where do you see "total inability" in that text? The natural man may not understand the things of God he can still understand enough to trust in God and be saved at which timer he will be able to understand more through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13

 

[kyredneck]

Where do you see "total inability" in that text?

Lol, really? He cannot know them, he cannot discern them, it's foolishness to him. I see it. You refuse to see it.

 

[Silverhair]

Lol, really? He cannot know them, he cannot discern them, it's foolishness to him. I see it. You refuse to see it.

So according to your logic there is no need to preach the gospel as none can understand it and be saved.

Our Message in Ministry
Lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. (2Co_4:4-5)
The enemy of men's souls wants to keep perishing people in spiritual blindness. "But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe." (2Co_4:3-4). This counterfeit god is working on all unbelievers (even as he formerly did with us). "In which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (Eph_2:2). His influence is so extensive. He works through every system (political, economic, educational, etc.) within the unbelieving world. "The whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one" (1Jo_5:19). The primary purpose of Satan's blinding activities is to keep those in darkness from seeing God's light: "Lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them."
Into this dark and blinded world, we come with the message of light: "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ." Only the light of Jesus can overcome spiritual man. Our Lord proclaimed this wondrous remedy. "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life" (Joh_8:12). When the light of Jesus shines into man's darkness, it brings liberating life from God. Paul was sent out with this great gospel: "To open their eyes and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God" (Act_26:18).
We are also sent out as vessels of light. "You are the light of the world" (Mat_5:14). We are light, because Jesus (the true light) lives in, and can shine through, each of us. "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light" (Eph_5:8). We can show forth our Lord in deed and in word. As we follow Jesus, His glorious light shines through us. As we speak of Jesus, we declare His glorious majesty.
Remember, the light of the gospel is about the glory of Jesus: "The light of the gospel of the glory of Christ." Our message is not about us. "For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake." We are but His servants. He is our message. He is the Lord over all. Thus, He is able to save from all that blinds and binds. {Day by Day by Grace Bob Hoekstra}

 

[Van]

The context shows two kinds of men.

One is born of the spirit and is able to know the things of God:

12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.

The other is the natural man, void of the spirit, and is unable to discern the things of the spirit of God (John 3:3), in fact they're foolishness to him (1 Corinthians 1:18):

14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:12 (NASB)
Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God.​

Here that we may know the solid food spiritual things freely given to us by God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB)
But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

Here does not accept the solid food spiritual things of the Spirit of God

Both verses are consistent contextually with 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. where those you have not learned from their indwelt Spirit, either because they are not indwelt or have not been indwelt very long, are unable to understand spiritual solid food. But those not indwelt or have not been indwelt very long can understand spiritual milk.

 

[Van]

Lol, that's 'essential Vanology', alter the text to get the desired effect.

Notice how the "taint so" folks ignore 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 and claim the idea that men of flesh and newly reborn Christians cannot understand spiritual solid food but can understand spiritual milk.
And the beat goes on...

 

[kyredneck]

1 Corinthians 3:1-3

These are 'babes in Christ', not the natural man void of the spirit as in 1 Corinthians 2:12-14.

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ. 1 Cor 3

 

[Van]

These are 'babes in Christ', not the natural man void of the spirit as in 1 Corinthians 2:12-14.

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ. 1 Cor 3

How many times are you going to nullify "but as unto carnal," and not address the truth of scripture. Your doctrine is unbiblical, false, and without merit.

Paul spoke using spiritual milk to new Christians just as he spoke to men of flesh (unregenerates). Deal with it, don't hide from God's truth.

 

[kyredneck]

address the truth of scripture.

The truth of scripture is that Christians can be carnal.

 

[kyredneck]

So according to your logic there is no need to preach the gospel as none can understand it and be saved.

Showing your ignorance, again.

And this is your stupid logic, not mine.

Scripture says He cannot know them, he cannot discern them, it's foolishness to him, not me.

 

[Van]

The truth of scripture is that Christians can be carnal.

More nullification, more nonsense.

[indent'] "Paul had to speak to them as he would to men wholly natural, inasmuch as they are still carnal (1Co 3:3) in many respects, notwithstanding their conversion (1Co 1:4-9)." [/indent]

One of the efforts to nullify 1 Corinthians 3:1 (as to men of flesh) is to claim the meaning in the verse is different from the meaning of 1 Corinthians 2:14. The nullifiers point to the fact two different Greek words are used, and then claim they mean different things.

In 1 Corinthians 2:14 the Greek word translated "natural" is psychikos (G5591) and is translated four times by the NASB as "natural" and footnoted as "unspiritual" two times. However, the same word is also translated as "worldly minded" in Jude 1:19. Here the actual intended meaning is explained by the following phrase, not having the Spirit! The the actual historical meaning in all five verses is therefore "unspiritual" (not having the indwelt Spirit).

Now in 1 Corinthians 3:1 the Greek word translated as "men of flesh" is "sarkinos" (G4560) and is translated as "fleshly" but the contextual contrast with spiritual people requires that the intended meaning refers to unspiritual people, not yet under the influence of the of God's Spirit.

Next in 1 Corinthians 3:3 the Greek word translated also as "fleshly" is "sarkikos" (4559) and refers to those not governed by the Spirit of God.

Thus in both cases (1 Corinthians 2:14 and 1 Corinthians 3:1) the idea is that the people are not governed by the Spirit of God, whether unregenerate (not being indwelt) or newly regenerate (not having learned from their indwelt Spirit)

 

[Silverhair]

Showing your ignorance, again.

And this is your stupid logic, not mine.

Scripture says He cannot know them, he cannot discern them, it's foolishness to him, not me.

You are acting like a child again KY. Your philosophy does not fit into the biblical context so you lash out with dumb comments. Your logic is flawed but you will not see it has been determined for you to misunderstand scripture.

 

[Craigbythesea]

The the actual historical meaning in all five verses is therefore "unspiritual" (not having the indwelt Spirit).

In many of your posts, you use the expression, “the actual historical meaning” but there is no such thing! Furthermore, the meaning that matters in interpreting the words in the Bible is how they are used in the contexts in which they are found. We have today the fruit of 70 years of cataloging and analyzing each and every word in the Greek New Testament and other early Christian literature to determine its meaning in each context in which it is used, and that is the BDAG—and yet your posts totally ignore it! For more detailed analysis, we have the TDNT—and yet your posts totally ignore it also! It is perfectly fine to share ones opinions, but to state them as facts and as though every other opinion is ridiculously wrong is not fine.