There is no strong case for a 7 year tribulation

[church mouse guy]

Quite informative. How long does the Antichrist reign before making the covenant is my question.

The covenant is made and then broken 3 1/2 years later when the Anti-Christ (Pope Francis) goes into the Holy of Holies in the third Temple and says that he himself is god and requires everyone to take the mark of the beast.

The preterists say that this will never happen because it happened already in the second Temple. They lack an historical record to prove their case. The dispensationalists say that they will not be here because when the covenant is made, Jesus will return and take them out of it. They have a special waiting room. I think that it is a safe space. Then there are the post-tribbers who are like drill sergeants who say that when the Anti-Christ makes the covenant, head for the hills. You are going to be a soldier behind enemy lines. Better keep a Bible handy at all times. If you are caught, you are going to be tortured to death unless you take the mark of the beast in which case you are going to hell. If you are not caught, it will be because you are cunning and trusted almost no one and you were healthy enough to stay on the run for at least 3 1/2 years when Jesus will come to rescue you--He is the Blessed Hope.

I think that the preterists will be the most surprised and the dispensationalists will be the least prepared. I think that the Anti-Christ will capture most people but remember his feet will be part clay.

Daniel 2:33 (KJV) His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

 

[Binyamin7]

No covenant was confirmed with many

HAHAHAHA. Uhhh, the "New Covenant" anyone? Literally the whole world as opposed to just the Jews.

"And he [Messiah] shall confirm a covenant with MANY [Gentiles and the whole world now able to receive the Kingdom and not primarily Jews] for one week [7 years], but in the middle of the week [about 3.5 year years, the approx length of Jesus ministry] He [Jesus] shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering [because He is the perfect sacrifice so no more bulls or goats are needed. Hence the torn veil in the temple, Hebrew 9:12].

 

[1689Dave]

Where do we see a 7 year tribulation besides Daniel 9:27? No where. 3.5 years is mentioned 8 times.

Daniel 9:27a has historically been considered a Messianic prophecy and NOT a prophecy about the Antichrist.

Let me show you a anmplified commentary type translation of what Daniel 9:27a could mean:

"And he [Messiah] shall confirm a covenant with MANY [Gentiles and the whole world now able to receive the Kingdom and not primarily Jews] for one week [7 years], but in the middle of the week [about 3.5 year years, the approx length of Jesus ministry] He [Jesus] shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering [because He is the perfect sacrifice so no more bulls or goats are needed. Hence the torn veil in the temple, Hebrew 9:12].

In fact this was the understood meaning for most of Christian history up until more recently. And there is no other passage that tells us we get some magical 3.5 years of peace after the antichrist comes into power before the Mark of the Beast. That just looks to be a false hope and a lie to me.

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

 

[Binyamin7]

None of you, and no one else anywhere, can firmly establish a 7 year tribulation that has a magical 3.5 years of peace before anything bad happens. There is 3.5 years total that will start with the MARK not with some made up peace treaty based on a false interpretation of Daniel 9:27.

Check Matthew Henry or Barnes commentaries on Dan 9:27 at biblehub .com. Daniel 9:27a has historically been understood more as a Messianic prophecy than antichrist. Daniel 9:27b then is antichrist.

So you people actually believe that as we watch the world descend into chaos and they already have the microchip technology perfected and ready to be released (ID2020 etc) that the Antichrist comes to power and DOESN'T actually implement the Mark right away? Lol why not? Just kinda sits around for 3.5 years hanging out huh? LOL. There is no better time than when he first rises to power and the world economy is in shambles- THE MARK IS LITERALLY HOW HE FIXES THE ECONOMY.

 

[1689Dave]

An over simplification to simply blame the Devil. There are a lot teaches that are not true that Christains believe and disagree on. Secondary issues as they are excused for believing in them.

It's not inline with historic Christianity.

 

[Alan Gross]

You just put a label on it. What you are doing is just another form of an ad hominem even if your assessment is true.

There are a number of points of disagreement. And all the differing views cannot be true.

This thread is making the argument that the word of God doees not teach the tribulation to be 7 years. That does not affect my pre-mill post-trib pre-wrath rapture view.

Now what interests me is what specificly caused you to change your view to amill. Something you thought was true was not.

what?

 

[Alan Gross]

Christ's second appearing, Hebrews 9:28 is not when, but how, Matthew 24:27.

Nothing in Matthew 24:27 relates to Jesus Second Coming.

They only relate to The Fall of The Jerusalam and "27 as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be", is exactly how Jesus Came in Providential Judgment, on The Temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D., which is what Jesus is Answering that the deisciples asked.

This article sheds light on Matthew 24.

This is The DIVINE INTERPRETATION>

There is only ONE "Interpretation" of each verse, in The Bible.

9.0.18a:> NT: REVELATION 21:9; SATAN SOLD: “The Pre-Mil/ Rapture” Trap to The Candlestick’s Angles in Jesus’ Right Hand and SOME of HIS BRIDE BOUGHT IT.

Jesus is Coming, however.


So, there should be NO REFERENCE
to Matthew 24:4-35, Regarding,
“THE END of THE WORLD”, made by “Preachers”, or “Authors”,
because, Matthew 24:4-35 ONLY REFERS, EXCLUSIVELY, to:
The Death of Jewish People and Nation at
THE DESTRUCTION of JERUSALEM.
…
ALL of THE “ISSUES” in these VERSES
from Matthew 24:4-14, TOOK PLACE PRIOR to
THE DESTRUCTION of JERUSALEM
AND
DO NOT “REFER TO” or “APPLY” to ANY
“END of THE WORLD” that JESUS TALKS ABOUT:
…
Matthew 24:5b;
“many shall come in My Name, saying, I am Christ;
and shall deceive many”
…
Matthew 24:6a;
“you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars”
…
Matthew 24:7;
“nation shall rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom:
and there shall be famines, and pestilences,
and earthquakes, in divers places”
…
Matthew 24:9;
“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted,
and shall kill you”
…
Matthew 24:11;
“many false prophets shall rise”
…
Matthew 24:12, 13;
“…iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”
…
“But he that shall endure to the end,
the same shall be saved.”
…
IN ADDITION:
ALL of THE “ISSUES” in these VERSES
from Matthew 24:15-35;
TOOK PLACE DURING
THE DESTRUCTION of JERUSALEM
AND
DO NOT “REFER TO” or “APPLY” to ANY
“END of THE WORLD” that
JESUS TALKS ABOUT:
…
Matthew 24:15;
“When you therefore shall see
the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the Prophet”
…
Matthew 24:21;
Because then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning of the world
to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
…
Matthew 24:22;
“except those days should be shortened,
there should no flesh be saved”
…
Matthew 24:24;
“Because there shall arise false Christs,
and false prophets,
and shall show great signs and wonders;
so that, if it were possible,
they shall deceive the very Elect.”
…
Matthew 24:27;
“Because as the lightning comes out of the east,
and shines even to the west;
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
…
Matthew 24: 28;
“Because wherever the carcass is,
there will the eagles be gathered together.”
…
Matthew 24:29;
“Immediately
after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

( Question:
Do we need to look up references in The Bible to:

“the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven”,
in order to arrive
at the Biblical Interpretation ?
…
Answer: We need to do that in order to arrive
at the Biblical Interpretation of every other Scripture,
don’t we ?
…
Hint: “Luminaries such as these “pictured” Joseph’s family
“Bowing Down to him”, in one of the dreams he had, right ?
…
Genesis 10:9;
And he ( Joseph ) dreamed yet another dream,
and told it his brothers, and said,
Behold, I have dreamed a dream more;
and, behold, the sun and the moon
and the eleven stars made obeisance
( deference, homage ) to me.”
…
And in Genesis, at The Creation of “The Sun”
and “The Moon”, they are respectively Said
to DO WHAT, “Over The Day” and “Over The Night” ?
…
“RULE” !, “GOVERN” !
…
Genesis 1:16;
“And God Made Two Great Lights;
the Greater Light to Rule the Day,
and the Lesser Light to Rule the Night:
He Made the Stars also.”
…
Now go to get your Divine Interpretation of
Matthew 24:29;

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened,
and
the moon shall not give her light,
and
the stars shall fall from heaven,
and
the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”
( all speaking of “Rulers”/ “Governors”
of various degrees )
…
Matthew 24:30;
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man
coming in the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory.
…
Matthew 24:31;
And he shall send his angels
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect
from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
…
Matthew 24:34;
Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled.
…
AS FAR AS,
THE END of THE WORLD,
WITH JESUS’ SECOND COMING,
JESUS SAID:
“No Sign Shall Be Given”.
…

 

[George Antonios]

Where do we see a 7 year tribulation besides Daniel 9:27? No where. 3.5 years is mentioned 8 times.

Daniel 9:27a has historically been considered a Messianic prophecy and NOT a prophecy about the Antichrist.

Let me show you a anmplified commentary type translation of what Daniel 9:27a could mean:

"And he [Messiah] shall confirm a covenant with MANY [Gentiles and the whole world now able to receive the Kingdom and not primarily Jews] for one week [7 years], but in the middle of the week [about 3.5 year years, the approx length of Jesus ministry] He [Jesus] shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering [because He is the perfect sacrifice so no more bulls or goats are needed. Hence the torn veil in the temple, Hebrew 9:12].

In fact this was the understood meaning for most of Christian history up until more recently. And there is no other passage that tells us we get some magical 3.5 years of peace after the antichrist comes into power before the Mark of the Beast. That just looks to be a false hope and a lie to me.

That most Christians could not prove a full seven year tribulation which is divided in twain, I agree.
That there is no such thing, I disagree, and here's why:

Compare this:
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

To that:
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 8:13 and Daniel 12:11 cannot be talking about the same period because one speaks of 2,300 days and one speaks of 1290 days. Evidently, 12:11 counts the days from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away until the time that the sanctuary be cleansed connecting back to the end of 8:14. But 8:14 counts back from the cleansing of the sanctuary by 2300 days, not 1290 days. That means it runs back almost seven years from the end as opposed to about 3 ½ years from the end. We therefore conclude that Daniel 8:13-14 counts the days from the beginning of the first half of the tribulation until the sanctuary be cleansed whereas 12:11 counts the days from the beginning of the second half of the tribulation until the sanctuary be cleansed.

Dan 8:13… How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice,
The first 3 ½ years of the tribulation:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week

Dan 8:13 and the transgression of desolation
The second 3 ½ years of the tribulation:
Dan 9:27… he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,

The book of Revelation clearly separates the tribulation into two halves, in line with Revelation 11:2’s gap, and with Job’s prophecy of the antichrist that the number of his months is cut off in the midst (Job 21:21) which is when he receives his deadly wound (Rev.13:2, 12) and resurrects as the cursed son of perdition (2Th.2:3). Since he thereupon rules for forty and two months (Rev.13:5) and that the number of his months will have been cut off in the midst (Job 21:21), we conclude that he was wounded after an initial and equal forty and two months; thus marking two equal halves.

 

[Dave G]

HAHAHAHA. Uhhh, the "New Covenant" anyone? Literally the whole world as opposed to just the Jews.

Read it carefully, Binyamin.
A seven-year-long covenant that a one world leader will confirm with many?
Here's how I see it:

" And after threescore and two weeks ( 434 years ) shall Messiah ( Jesus Christ ) be cut off ( crucified ), but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he ( the prince that shall come ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week ( 7 years ): and in the midst of the week ( 3.5 years ) he ( the prince that shall come ) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he ( the prince that shall come ) shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." ( Daniel 9:25-27 ).


It talks of establishing a 7 year covenant with many, and in the middle of that 7 year covenant, the one who confirms it will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease and for the overspreading of abominations, he shall make it desolate...
The abomination of desolation.

Titus didn't do that in 70 AD.
Then we come to the Lord:

Jesus Christ confirmed a covenant with many...
But it wasn't a 7 year covenant.

It was and is an everlasting covenant.

 

[Alan Gross]

Am I going to have to get into Daniel 7 & 9, with you guys?

I'll need to go back and read my writings, to "see what I believe on it".

Hay, just kidding.

I'm not scared of anybody in Matthew 24, Revelation 20, or Daniel 7 & 9.

What did you want to know that I MIGHT be able to come up with?

 

[church mouse guy]

None of you, and no one else anywhere, can firmly establish a 7 year tribulation that has a magical 3.5 years of peace before anything bad happens. There is 3.5 years total that will start with the MARK not with some made up peace treaty based on a false interpretation of Daniel 9:27.

Check Matthew Henry or Barnes commentaries on Dan 9:27 at biblehub .com. Daniel 9:27a has historically been understood more as a Messianic prophecy than antichrist. Daniel 9:27b then is antichrist.

So you people actually believe that as we watch the world descend into chaos and they already have the microchip technology perfected and ready to be released (ID2020 etc) that the Antichrist comes to power and DOESN'T actually implement the Mark right away? Lol why not? Just kinda sits around for 3.5 years hanging out huh? LOL. There is no better time than when he first rises to power and the world economy is in shambles- THE MARK IS LITERALLY HOW HE FIXES THE ECONOMY.

He has satanic power but it is iron mixed with clay. Daniel is correct.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

What of the King of the North and King of the South in all This, as given in Daniel? I do not see a world united behind the Beast (The King of the North), too many scriptures indicate otherwise.

 

[tyndale1946]

What of the King of the North and King of the South in all This, as given in Daniel? I do not see a world united behind the Beast (The King of the North), too many scriptures indicate otherwise.

Steven you are brother of a military mindset... I go with History not Fantasy... You might enjoy this link... Brother Glen

8. The Kings of the North and South (Daniel 10:1-11:35). Daniel: Faithful Discipleship in a Foreign Land

 

[37818]

It's not inline with historic Christianity.

What is not in line with historic New Testament Christianity?

 

[Alan Gross]

What is not in line with historic New Testament Christianity?

Jump in The Bible and give far less value to some 'writtings', if you would like.

 

[37818]

Nothing in Matthew 24:27 relates to Jesus Second Coming.

They only relate to The Fall of The Jerusalam and "27 as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be", is exactly how Jesus Came in Providential Judgment, on The Temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D., which is what Jesus is Answering that the deisciples asked.

This article sheds light on Matthew 24.

This is The DIVINE INTERPRETATION>

There is only ONE "Interpretation" of each verse, in The Bible.

9.0.18a:> NT: REVELATION 21:9; SATAN SOLD: “The Pre-Mil/ Rapture” Trap to The Candlestick’s Angles in Jesus’ Right Hand and SOME of HIS BRIDE BOUGHT IT.

Jesus is Coming, however.


So, there should be NO REFERENCE
to Matthew 24:4-35, Regarding,
“THE END of THE WORLD”, made by “Preachers”, or “Authors”,
because, Matthew 24:4-35 ONLY REFERS, EXCLUSIVELY, to:
The Death of Jewish People and Nation at
THE DESTRUCTION of JERUSALEM.
…
ALL of THE “ISSUES” in these VERSES
from Matthew 24:4-14, TOOK PLACE PRIOR to
THE DESTRUCTION of JERUSALEM
AND
DO NOT “REFER TO” or “APPLY” to ANY
“END of THE WORLD” that JESUS TALKS ABOUT:
…
Matthew 24:5b;
“many shall come in My Name, saying, I am Christ;
and shall deceive many”
…
Matthew 24:6a;
“you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars”
…
Matthew 24:7;
“nation shall rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom:
and there shall be famines, and pestilences,
and earthquakes, in divers places”
…
Matthew 24:9;
“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted,
and shall kill you”
…
Matthew 24:11;
“many false prophets shall rise”
…
Matthew 24:12, 13;
“…iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”
…
“But he that shall endure to the end,
the same shall be saved.”
…
IN ADDITION:
ALL of THE “ISSUES” in these VERSES
from Matthew 24:15-35;
TOOK PLACE DURING
THE DESTRUCTION of JERUSALEM
AND
DO NOT “REFER TO” or “APPLY” to ANY
“END of THE WORLD” that
JESUS TALKS ABOUT:
…
Matthew 24:15;
“When you therefore shall see
the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the Prophet”
…
Matthew 24:21;
Because then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning of the world
to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
…
Matthew 24:22;
“except those days should be shortened,
there should no flesh be saved”
…
Matthew 24:24;
“Because there shall arise false Christs,
and false prophets,
and shall show great signs and wonders;
so that, if it were possible,
they shall deceive the very Elect.”
…
Matthew 24:27;
“Because as the lightning comes out of the east,
and shines even to the west;
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
…
Matthew 24: 28;
“Because wherever the carcass is,
there will the eagles be gathered together.”
…
Matthew 24:29;
“Immediately
after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

( Question:
Do we need to look up references in The Bible to:

“the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven”,
in order to arrive
at the Biblical Interpretation ?
…
Answer: We need to do that in order to arrive
at the Biblical Interpretation of every other Scripture,
don’t we ?
…
Hint: “Luminaries such as these “pictured” Joseph’s family
“Bowing Down to him”, in one of the dreams he had, right ?
…
Genesis 10:9;
And he ( Joseph ) dreamed yet another dream,
and told it his brothers, and said,
Behold, I have dreamed a dream more;
and, behold, the sun and the moon
and the eleven stars made obeisance
( deference, homage ) to me.”
…
And in Genesis, at The Creation of “The Sun”
and “The Moon”, they are respectively Said
to DO WHAT, “Over The Day” and “Over The Night” ?
…
“RULE” !, “GOVERN” !
…
Genesis 1:16;
“And God Made Two Great Lights;
the Greater Light to Rule the Day,
and the Lesser Light to Rule the Night:
He Made the Stars also.”
…
Now go to get your Divine Interpretation of
Matthew 24:29;

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened,
and
the moon shall not give her light,
and
the stars shall fall from heaven,
and
the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”
( all speaking of “Rulers”/ “Governors”
of various degrees )
…
Matthew 24:30;
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man
coming in the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory.
…
Matthew 24:31;
And he shall send his angels
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect
from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
…
Matthew 24:34;
Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled.
…
AS FAR AS,
THE END of THE WORLD,
WITH JESUS’ SECOND COMING,
JESUS SAID:
“No Sign Shall Be Given”.
…

Your irrational rant.

". . . so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." -- Matthew 24:27. For which Jesus' disciples did also ask, ". . . and what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Steven you are brother of a military mindset... I go with History not Fantasy... You might enjoy this link... Brother Glen

8. The Kings of the North and South (Daniel 10:1-11:35). Daniel: Faithful Discipleship in a Foreign Land

Thank you Brother Glen. Very interesting information. My issue is then, why does Jesus speak of the abomination of desolation as future in Mark 13 and Matthew 24?

 

[37818]

Jump in The Bible and give far less value to some 'writings', if you would like.

And what does that mean?
.

 

[tyndale1946]

Thank you Brother Glen. Very interesting information. My issue is then, why does Jesus speak of the abomination of desolation as future in Mark 13 and Matthew 24?

Can't say off the top of my head but, I'll get back to you... Brother Glen

 

[Alan Gross]

Your irrational rant.

". . . so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." -- Matthew 24:27. For which Jesus' disciples did also ask, ". . . and what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

Yep, Jesus Came with The Biblical language of Coming as the God of The Universe, Using the Roman Armies, to Bring Judgment.

The God of The Universe Had Judgment on The Jews and that is the meaning of,
“Because as the lightning comes out of the east,
and shines even to the west;
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

The Roman Armies came fast, "as the lightning comes out of the east,
and shines even to the west;", in Judgment, as God Had Vengence on the Jews' Apostacy and Crucifying His Son.

...

Gill:

"so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"

For as the lightning cometh out of the east

The eastern part of the horizon, and shineth even unto the west;
to the western part of it, with great clearness;

in a moment; in the twinkling of an eye, filling the whole intermediate space; so shall also the coming of the son of man be;

which must be understood not of his last coming to judgment,
though that will be sudden, visible, and universal;
he will at once come to, and be seen by all, in the clouds of heaven, and not in deserts and secret chambers:

nor of his spiritual coming in the more sudden, and clear, and powerful preaching of the Gospel all over the Gentile world;

for this was to be done before the destruction of Jerusalem:

but of His Coming in His Wrath and Vengeance to destroy that people, their nation, city, and the temple:

so that after this to look for the Messiah in a desert, or secret chamber,
must argue great stupidity and blindness;

when his coming was as sudden, visible, powerful, and general, to the destruction of that nation, as the lightning that comes from the east, and, in a moment, shines to the west."

...

This is not, 'an opinion'.

This is Interpreting what God Would Have us to understand.