There is no strong case for a 7 year tribulation

[Alan Gross]

And what does that mean?
.

"in line with historic New Testament Christianity?" hold varying views, on Major Topics, and as far as "historic New Testament Christianity", if we depend on it, it may be diametrically opposed to The Bible.

 

[1689Dave]

What is not in line with historic New Testament Christianity?

Premillennialism is heresy. Amillennialism is Biblical.

 

[church mouse guy]

Premillennialism is heresy. Amillennialism is Biblical.

Prove it.

 

[1689Dave]

Prove it.

Here's the challenge. Find one passage in the Gospels or Epistles where Jesus or anyone teaches a physical kingdom.

Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

Daniel said; “And in the days of these kings [Old Roman Empire] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” Daniel 2:44 (NCPB)

“And [Jesus] saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Luke 16:16 (KJV 1900)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

“I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Revelation 1:9 (NASB95)

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV 1900)

“That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.” 1 Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV 1900)

“And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 19:8 (KJV 1900)

“And when thy days [David] be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

“For the kingdom is the LORD’s: and he is the governor among the nations.” Psalm 22:28 (NCPB)

 

[church mouse guy]

Here's the challenge. Find one passage in the Gospels or Epistles where Jesus or anyone teaches a physical kingdom.

Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

Daniel said; “And in the days of these kings [Old Roman Empire] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” Daniel 2:44 (NCPB)

“And [Jesus] saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Luke 16:16 (KJV 1900)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

“I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Revelation 1:9 (NASB95)

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV 1900)

“That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.” 1 Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV 1900)

“And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 19:8 (KJV 1900)

“And when thy days [David] be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

“For the kingdom is the LORD’s: and he is the governor among the nations.” Psalm 22:28 (NCPB)

You listed verse after verse that had nothing to do with the 1000 year reign of Jesus. Maybe preterism is wrong about that. Clearly, Jesus has to return to earth to reign for 1000 years and some preterists tell me that Jesus has not returned yet.

The Roman empire never conquered the world. It surrounded the Mediterranean Sea and took Europe except for Germany where it was severely defeated.

Actually, Stalin ruled with an iron fist until his death and Xi Jinping rules 1.3 billion people with an iron fist but he does not have the money and military to conquer the world. Actually, Islam murdered about 240,000,000 over the last 1400 years but it too is slowly being contained by its own depravity. So Rome was peanuts in a sense.

 

[1689Dave]

You listed verse after verse that had nothing to do with the 1000 year reign of Jesus. Maybe preterism is wrong about that. Clearly, Jesus has to return to earth to reign for 1000 years and some preterists tell me that Jesus has not returned yet.

The Roman empire never conquered the world. It surrounded the Mediterranean Sea and took Europe except for Germany where it was severely defeated.

Actually, Stalin ruled with an iron fist until his death and Xi Jinping rules 1.3 billion people with an iron fist but he does not have the money and military to conquer the world. Actually, Islam murdered about 240,000,000 over the last 1400 years but it too is slowly being contained by its own depravity. So Rome was peanuts in a sense.

Why no 1000 year reign of Christ listed? Because there isn't any. It is a Pharisee doctrine you believe while rejecting Christ's gospel of the kingdom after ample scripture is given. Can you reject his kingdom and follow the Pharisee's version of Christ? And be saved? He says only the born-again can see the true kingdom.

 

[church mouse guy]

They were 4 empires that overtook each other. You reject Christ because you cannot see his kingdom that only the born-again can see. Just as the Pharisees did.

Huh? Rome was destroyed because it was a nazi state that enslaved the Jews and executed the diaspora. You applaud Rome for their barbarity but God destroyed them.

 

[church mouse guy]

Why no 1000 year reign of Christ listed? Because there isn't any. It is a Pharisee doctrine you believe while rejecting Christ's gospel of the kingdom after ample scripture is given. Can you reject his kingdom and follow the Pharisee's version of Christ? And be saved? He says only the born-again can see the true kingdom.

What do the Pharisees have to do with Christian eschatology? You really lost me on that one.

 

[1689Dave]

What do the Pharisees have to do with Christian eschatology? You really lost me on that one.

The Millennium is their invention. The historic Church condemned it as heresy a couple of times.

 

[1689Dave]

Huh? Rome was destroyed because it was a nazi state that enslaved the Jews and executed the diaspora. You applaud Rome for their barbarity but God destroyed them.

I'm speaking of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy fulfilling the Roman Empire as the 4th kingdom.

 

[Alan Gross]

Premillennialism is heresy. Amillennialism is Biblical.

"Amillennialism" is such an od use of the name game.

Yes, no 'mill' talk, or schemes, whatsoever, are in The Bible.

Another Gospel of one, or two, or three, or more, of, "don't bother talking to The Jews, because Jesus is Coming Back to Talk to them, Personally, is heresy.

There is your proof, for the one who asked.

The '1,000' years of Revelation 20 is symbolic, just like all the other numbers in The Book of Revelation.

Satan changed the wording for Modern Heretics in their Modern Heretic Bibles to 'communicate', in Revelation i, when the Reveals Revelation from God is that The Book of Revelation was "sent and signified", i.e., 'symbolically'.

A heretic will say, "Take The Book of Revelation Literal, unless you are forced to take it symbolically".

How heretical.

God Said He Sent it 'symbolically'.

The heresy actually does TAKE PLACE IN SPADES.

You know how?

Switching back and forth between a supposed, unwarranted 'Literal' Hermeneutic
to a 'Symbolic' Hemeneutic WILLY-NILLY, without direction or planning; haphazardly.

THAT IS THE FORMULA FOR CREATING DEMONIC HERECY.

THAT IS NOT HOW GOD'S WORD IS PRESENTED.

 

[church mouse guy]

I'm speaking of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy fulfilling the Roman Empire as the 4th kingdom.

Yeah, Rome was iron, a murderous regime that enslaved Jews and executed the diaspora. The empire of the Anti-Christ will be iron mixed with clay, as you know.

 

[church mouse guy]

"Amillennialism" is such an od use of the name game.

Yes, no 'mill' talk, or schemes, whatsoever, are in The Bible.

Another Gospel of one, or two, or three, or more, of, "don't bother talking to The Jews, because Jesus is Coming Back to Talk to them, Personally, is heresy.

There is your proof, for the one who asked.

The '1,000' years of Revelation 20 is symbolic, just like all the other numbers in The Book of Revelation.

Satan changed the wording for Modern Heretics in their Modern Heretic Bibles to 'communicate', in Revelation i, when the Reveals Revelation from God is that The Book of Revelation was "sent and signified", i.e., 'symbolically'.

A heretic will say, "Take The Book of Revelation Literal, unless you are forced to take it symbolically".

How heretical.

God Said He Sent it 'symbolically'.

The heresy actually does TAKE PLACE IN SPADES.

You know how?

Switching back and forth between a supposed, unwarranted 'Literal' Hermeneutic
to a 'Symbolic' Hemeneutic WILLY-NILLY, without direction or planning; haphazardly.

THAT IS THE FORMULA FOR CREATING DEMONIC HERECY.

THAT IS NOT HOW GOD'S WORD IS PRESENTED.

Preterism does not use Protestant hermeneutics, does it?

 

[1689Dave]

Yeah, Rome was iron, a murderous regime that enslaved Jews and executed the diaspora. The empire of the Anti-Christ will be iron mixed with clay, as you know.

You missed it completely. Since you cannot see the kingdom, you think it is still future. And you also think there must be a new Roman Empire which scripture never mentions. The key is in the New Birth. Only the born-again could see it in Jesus' day. And today.

 

[Alan Gross]

Preterism does not use Protestant hermeneutics, does it?

Who's talking about a 'word', "Preterism", and who cares and what does it mean, and who cares.

There is a Bible.

Do you have one?

Baptists have never been 'Protestants'.

Christianity did not begin in The 1600s.

 

[church mouse guy]

Who's talking about a 'word', "Preterism", and who cares and what does it mean, and who cares.

There is a Bible.

Do you have one?

Baptists have never been 'Protestants'.

Christianity did not begin in The 1600s.

Sorry, I should have written standard Protestant hermeneutics, which teaches to use the literal interpretation if it makes sense, which a 1000 years makes sense to everyone.

 

[church mouse guy]

You missed it completely. Since you cannot see the kingdom, you think it is still future. And you also think there must be a new Roman Empire which scripture never mentions. The key is in the New Birth. Only the born-again could see it in Jesus' day. And today.

Missed what--you started the subject of the empires foretold by Daniel but the last one, the feet of iron and clay, belongs to the Anti-Christ, as you know.

 

[1689Dave]

Missed what--you started the subject of the empires foretold by Daniel but the last one, the feet of iron and clay, belongs to the Anti-Christ, as you know.

It happened as foretold. But you and others are blind to the fact that the Papacy IS Antichrist. And the Islam version is yet to come.

 

[church mouse guy]

It happened as foretold. But you and others are blind to the fact that the Papacy IS Antichrist. And the Islam version is yet to come.

It is not complete. We are waiting for the empire of iron and clay.

 

[37818]

Yep, Jesus Came with The Biblical language of Coming as the God of The Universe, Using the Roman Armies, to Bring Judgment.

The God of The Universe Had Judgment on The Jews and that is the meaning of,
“Because as the lightning comes out of the east,
and shines even to the west;
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

The Roman Armies came fast, "as the lightning comes out of the east,
and shines even to the west;", in Judgment, as God Had Vengence on the Jews' Apostacy and Crucifying His Son.

...

Gill:

"so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"

For as the lightning cometh out of the east

The eastern part of the horizon, and shineth even unto the west;
to the western part of it, with great clearness;

in a moment; in the twinkling of an eye, filling the whole intermediate space; so shall also the coming of the son of man be;

which must be understood not of his last coming to judgment,
though that will be sudden, visible, and universal;
he will at once come to, and be seen by all, in the clouds of heaven, and not in deserts and secret chambers:

nor of his spiritual coming in the more sudden, and clear, and powerful preaching of the Gospel all over the Gentile world;

for this was to be done before the destruction of Jerusalem:

but of His Coming in His Wrath and Vengeance to destroy that people, their nation, city, and the temple:

so that after this to look for the Messiah in a desert, or secret chamber,
must argue great stupidity and blindness;

when his coming was as sudden, visible, powerful, and general, to the destruction of that nation, as the lightning that comes from the east, and, in a moment, shines to the west."

...

This is not, 'an opinion'.

This is Interpreting what God Would Have us to understand.

That is nothing more than an unBiblical rant. Now I believe what Jesus said solely in Matthew 24:1-2 was what was fulled in 70AD. The rest is an irrational rant.