There is no strong case for a 7 year tribulation

[1689Dave]

No one denies that there is one overall kingdom. In fact, I have my table of the kingdoms harmonizing and I have presented it to you in the past. Here:

View attachment 4167


But you can't ignore where they differ. Here:

View attachment 4163 View attachment 4164 View attachment 4165 View attachment 4166

Heresy arises the moment we ignore either of the aspects of the kingdom. It's one kingdom but with two aspects: a spiritual and a physical aspect.
What you've done, is follow Catholic Rome which followed Augustine, who followed Origen, who followed Plato who made kingdom-truth exclusively spiritual - in good gnostic Hindu fashion.

If only the born again can see the kingdom, how is it you still preach Phariseeism's physical Kingdom? Perhaps the big problem is that only petty few are born-again?

 

[George Antonios]

If only the born again can see the kingdom, how is it you still preach Phariseeism's physical Kingdom? Perhaps the big problem is that only petty few are born-again?

Explain to me exactly what you understand see the kingdom to mean and how that negates the kingdom having a physical aspect? Keep in mind that no one denies the spiritual aspect of the kingdom.
Maybe I can then better answer you because I don't understand where you see the problem.

And stop doubting the salvation of every one that disagrees with you.

 

[1689Dave]

Explain to me exactly what you understand see the kingdom to mean and how that negates the kingdom having a physical aspect? Keep in mind that no one denies the spiritual aspect of the kingdom.
Maybe I can then better answer you because I don't understand where you see the problem.

And stop doubting the salvation of every one that disagrees with you.

It's when you add the Pharisees millennial kingdom that you reject Christ who taught against it.

 

[church mouse guy]

You need to agree with the Bible. The creeds do and they condemn premillennialism as heresy.

Oh, I don't disagree with the Bible but I disagree with your version of history regarding the 10 kingdoms. I seem to have misplaced the book, chapter, and verse of the condemnation of premillennialism in the creeds. Maybe you will be so kind as to list it for me?

 

[1689Dave]

Oh, I don't disagree with the Bible but I disagree with your version of history regarding the 10 kingdoms. I seem to have misplaced the book, chapter, and verse of the condemnation of premillennialism in the creeds. Maybe you will be so kind as to list it for me?

You need to know the history before you can call others ignorant. Prove Stacy wrong in what I've quoted. Then speak give your version.

 

[church mouse guy]

You need to know the history before you can call others ignorant. Prove Stacy wrong in what I've quoted. Then speak give your version.

I don't recall using the word "ignorant", do you? I have shown that Stacy was wrong in calling the Vandals a nation unless you are talking about the bunch in Portland. And the Saxon also were just a tribe who were pushed out of Germany and took rafts with the old lady and the cow to England where they lived in stick houses--never in all of history a nation. I suppose that I could look into the other groups but I have a hunch that there may be just another tribe in that list. As for the Huns, they were hardly part of a European federation as they swept out of the east as nomadic, raiders, conquerors, but their power was short-lived. Nice try.

 

[1689Dave]

I don't recall using the word "ignorant", do you? I have shown that Stacy was wrong in calling the Vandals a nation unless you are talking about the bunch in Portland. And the Saxon also were just a tribe who were pushed out of Germany and took rafts with the old lady and the cow to England where they lived in stick houses--never in all of history a nation. I suppose that I could look into the other groups but I have a hunch that there may be just another tribe in that list. As for the Huns, they were hardly part of a European federation as they swept out of the east as nomadic, raiders, conquerors, but their power was short-lived. Nice try.

10 kingdoms emerged from the fall of Rome. Name them.

 

[George Antonios]

It's when you add the Pharisees millennial kingdom that you reject Christ who taught against it.

You haven't explained how John 3:3 disannuls the fact that the kingdom has a physical aspect as well as a spiritual one. You're just repeating the accusation.
The problem of the Pharisees was not that they expected a physical kingdom, it was that they rejected and/or ignored the spiritual aspect of the kingdom [righteousness (Ro.14:17), repentance (Mt.3:2)] that came with it.
Upon their rejection, they lost the prospect of the physical kingdom - for now (John 18:36) [that's not Christ teaching against it, that's Christ saying: "the physical kingdom has gone into mystery form because of your unbelief"] and all that was left was the spiritual aspect, which spiritual aspect was given to the church instead. That partial truth, that the kingdom has a spiritual aspect, is seen of you as the whole truth. The fact that there is a present spiritual aspect to the kingdom does not disannul the future physical aspect.

You see, you mock the Pharisees but you're doing the same thing:

• In their Jewish bias they could only see the physical aspect of the kingdom and rejected the spiritual aspect.
• In your Gentile bias you can only see the spiritual aspect of the kingdom and reject the physical one.

• They overlooked the 1st coming
• You overlook the 2nd coming

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

[church mouse guy]

10 kingdoms emerged from the fall of Rome. Name them.

It's future. The kingdom of clay and iron belongs to the Anti-Christ. It will be one kingdom made up of ten countries such as the EU, which is now busting up.

 

[Reformed1689]

The denial of the Bible is not my thing.

The Final Judgment is described in Revelation 20:4-6, just as The Final Judgment is described in each of the other 6 Visions, in The Book of Revelation.

The Final Judgment and Last Battle are also described in several other places in The Bible.

How many Final Judgments are there?

20?

Start with that question.

The preachers who teach Jesus Swiping up and down, Coming and Going, all over Creation look as stupid to each other, with hundreds of scanerios, as they do to the lost World.

No one knows what they believe, including themselves.

The End of The World in the First Vision of John on Patmos is in Revelation 1:7.

John's mention of Jesus Having Washed us in His Own Blood is a reference to His First Advent.

The First Vision of Revelation 1 to 3, covers the church age, between Jesus' First Advent, when He Washed us in His Own Blood, until His Second Advent, when Jesus Comes Again, One Time, in Revelation 1:4.

The Second Vision begins with Jesus Acsention to The Throne at the End of His First Advent.

It also described The One and Only Second Advent.

All seven Visions do.

The rants come and are the fear Satan puts in Preachers hearts, to not Face Jesus Coming, as A Spiritual Fact of Present History.

I better call my admonitions, "hellfire and brimstone".

It's Coming to everywhere in The World, after The Saints are Caught Up in the Air.

It's Over.

Jesus is Coming.

Maybe, today.

I'm pretty sure Revelation 20 explicitly states 1,000 years....

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm pretty sure Revelation 20 explicitly states 1,000 years....

Well, also states time period between 2 resurrections there!

 

[timtofly]

The covenant is made and then broken 3 1/2 years later when the Anti-Christ (Pope Francis) goes into the Holy of Holies in the third Temple and says that he himself is god and requires everyone to take the mark of the beast.

The preterists say that this will never happen because it happened already in the second Temple. They lack an historical record to prove their case. The dispensationalists say that they will not be here because when the covenant is made, Jesus will return and take them out of it. They have a special waiting room. I think that it is a safe space. Then there are the post-tribbers who are like drill sergeants who say that when the Anti-Christ makes the covenant, head for the hills. You are going to be a soldier behind enemy lines. Better keep a Bible handy at all times. If you are caught, you are going to be tortured to death unless you take the mark of the beast in which case you are going to hell. If you are not caught, it will be because you are cunning and trusted almost no one and you were healthy enough to stay on the run for at least 3 1/2 years when Jesus will come to rescue you--He is the Blessed Hope.

I think that the preterists will be the most surprised and the dispensationalists will be the least prepared. I think that the Anti-Christ will capture most people but remember his feet will be part clay.

Daniel 2:33 (KJV) His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

And those looking for an Antichrist, will just die of boredom when he never shows up?

 

[timtofly]

None of you, and no one else anywhere, can firmly establish a 7 year tribulation that has a magical 3.5 years of peace before anything bad happens. There is 3.5 years total that will start with the MARK not with some made up peace treaty based on a false interpretation of Daniel 9:27.

Check Matthew Henry or Barnes commentaries on Dan 9:27 at biblehub .com. Daniel 9:27a has historically been understood more as a Messianic prophecy than antichrist. Daniel 9:27b then is antichrist.

So you people actually believe that as we watch the world descend into chaos and they already have the microchip technology perfected and ready to be released (ID2020 etc) that the Antichrist comes to power and DOESN'T actually implement the Mark right away? Lol why not? Just kinda sits around for 3.5 years hanging out huh? LOL. There is no better time than when he first rises to power and the world economy is in shambles- THE MARK IS LITERALLY HOW HE FIXES THE ECONOMY.

Where in the Bible does God use conspiracy? It is humans who conspire against God and God's Word. It is called heresy. The tribulation is not Satan's plan. The last 2500 years has been Satan's plan. The church was launched against this spiritual wickedness in high places. The church has failed many times in the last 1990 years, by playing the harlot, instead of just obeying the Great Commission.

The Tribulation is the final harvest and the completion of Adam's punishment on Adam's descendants. All will die in this harvest. The church is taken out first, because the church contains those glorified and totally restored into Adam's Paradise, the Garden of Eden. It is now the temple of God per Revelation 7. The church will be with God, until this temple comes down as the New Jerusalem, after the last Millennium is completed per God's plan in Revelation 20. The New Jerusalem is part of the next reality, not this current one.

 

[1689Dave]

It's future. The kingdom of clay and iron belongs to the Anti-Christ. It will be one kingdom made up of ten countries such as the EU, which is now busting up.

So the Roman Empire must happen all over again because you cannot understand that Jesus fulfilled the 70 weeks? Where does scripture give your view?

 

[1689Dave]

You haven't explained how John 3:3 disannuls the fact that the kingdom has a physical aspect as well as a spiritual one. You're just repeating the accusation.
The problem of the Pharisees was not that they expected a physical kingdom, it was that they rejected and/or ignored the spiritual aspect of the kingdom [righteousness (Ro.14:17), repentance (Mt.3:2)] that came with it.
Upon their rejection, they lost the prospect of the physical kingdom - for now (John 18:36) [that's not Christ teaching against it, that's Christ saying: "the physical kingdom has gone into mystery form because of your unbelief"] and all that was left was the spiritual aspect, which spiritual aspect was given to the church instead. That partial truth, that the kingdom has a spiritual aspect, is seen of you as the whole truth. The fact that there is a present spiritual aspect to the kingdom does not disannul the future physical aspect.

You see, you mock the Pharisees but you're doing the same thing:

• In their Jewish bias they could only see the physical aspect of the kingdom and rejected the spiritual aspect.
• In your Gentile bias you can only see the spiritual aspect of the kingdom and reject the physical one.

• They overlooked the 1st coming
• You overlook the 2nd coming

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

But Jesus says his kingdom comes without observation.

 

[church mouse guy]

So the Roman Empire must happen all over again because you cannot understand that Jesus fulfilled the 70 weeks? Where does scripture give your view?

Why do we need to repeat Rome? We are in a waiting period.

 

[1689Dave]

Why do we need to repeat Rome? We are in a waiting period.

Because his kingdom comes during the time of the Roman Empire. That's why false prophets say there will be a restored Roman Empire when scripture does not.

 

[George Antonios]

The dispensationalists say that they will not be here because when the covenant is made, Jesus will return and take them out of it. They have a special waiting room. I think that it is a safe space.

Basically, yes, since the scriptures actually say so, only the verses are addressed to tribulation believers, not church age believers but we can still apply the principle to us as Paul often did, especially since Isaiah 26 is also the chapter that prophesied Christ's resurrection as well as that of the many bodies of the saints which arose with him and thus the beginning of the church age and since there are 2 raptures, not 1 (one of the church before the trib and another of trib saints during the trib) :


Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

• First coming with Second coming also in the background.

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

• The "special waiting room", the "safe space", until the tribulation (indignation) is over in a little moment (7 years).

Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

• The 2nd coming at the end of the tribulation.

 

[George Antonios]

But Jesus says his kingdom comes without observation.

That was dealt with in the very first section of the table:



So he also said the kingdom will be seen to come. We must take all that Christ has said, not only part.

 

[1689Dave]

That was dealt with in the very first section of the table:

View attachment 4169

So he also said the kingdom will be seen to come. We must take all that Christ has said, not only part.

But, Jesus says the kingdom is within you. Fat chance of your Pharisee kingdom ending up there.