This text does not teach that......you are inserting all that here
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These verses would not be needed
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I believe the people they were speaking of will only be assembled on the last day.
I do not believe in an unassembled assembly
They should have said they were members of the Kingdom instead.
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So by that idea the Blood and sacrifice of Christ did not cover the Old Testament believers. Because under your view only the church believer received atonement for their sins.
Yet we see that Christ became the propitiation for us as but not for us alone but for the whole world.
His blood covered the Old Testament believer as well as those of the church. His atonement was unlimited for all depraved mankind, they only need to believe on Him by Grace through Faith to be saved.
For one thing I believe the scriptural teaching that propitiation results in the wrath being turned a2ay and forgiveness of sins being there.....this does not happen to all mankind.
Sorry to break the news to you rmac......but on the last day....
all elect persons from all time will be the gathered assembly. ..the one true church.
Your dispensationalism hinders you from once again seeing it.
Your man centered theology contributes to this error as you suggest that man actually determines whatsoever comes to pass.
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Dispensations merely teaches that God through covenants dealt with mankind through different ages or dispensations of time. As Paul says God has given us a dispensation of Grace that is a covenant of grace in which He deals directly with us. God in the O.T. dealt with or had mankind worship by means of sacrifices looking forward to the coming of the Savior who would be the propitiatory sacrifice. The O.T. saw different means of Priest offering up those sacrifices. We are believer Priest and as such are able to confess our sins directly to Him thus His Grace.
Christ death on t he cross clearly became the satisfactory payment for sin. Hid blood was shed to remove the sin issue. And He that Christ in John 3:17 made it clear those who believe are not condemned those who don't believe are condemned already because of their unbelief.
As for different resurrections that too is clear in scripture. For in Revelation 20 we see those who are unbelievers judged and raised after the 1000 year Kingdom.
The Revelation of Jesus Chapter 20 verse 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Very clear the unrighteous are not resurrected at the same time.
Also clear is the the First Resurrection is completed upon Christ return and subsequent reign upon the earth, The Revelation of Jesus Chapter 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
No question except for a few that their is a first Resurrection and then a second.
Dispensationalist follow the teaching of the apostles and the early church fathers. On God dealing with mankind as for as worship goes through periods of times and certain covenants.
Christ death we are told in 1 John 2:2 brought propitiation that is a satisfactory blood sacrifice for sin. First it is for t hose of us who believe then John says but not for us alone but for the whole world, that is all of mankind. The issue for salvation is one has a oerson believed on Christ or rejected the Grace payment He paid.
We see this not only in John 3:17-18, but also in the Revelation of Jesus chapter 20, 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Very clear unbelief is the issue, the penalty for sin has been propitiated, that God is satisfied with the payment, one just needs to believe on the Lord Jesus to be save and receive the benefit of His Propitiatory sacrifice.
revmwc
We both know that is not all it teaches...Covenants are not the heart of it.
The COG has been in place since Gen3:15 was described.
Not all mankind worshipped God....they worshipped idols.
This is not accurate....Jesus did not die for random sin.
The "sin issue" is settled in the Divine substitute or in the sinner himself at the white throne judgment.
We both know that is not all it teaches...Covenants are not the heart of it.
The COG has been in place since Gen3:15 was described.
Not all mankind worshipped God....they worshipped idols.
This is not accurate....Jesus did not die for random sin.
The "sin issue" is settled in the Divine substitute or in the sinner himself at the white throne judgment.
The dispensational I was taught connects covenants with each dispensation. In fact until I begin to see the amil view of dispensations I never saw them not connected.
I have stated and will state that Genesis 3:15 promised the savior who would have his heel brushed by satan but would also crush satans head. God dealt with Adam and Eve by Grace through their faith. But Cain rejected the savior offered and refused to offer a proper sacrifice.
Believers offered sacrifices to God the Father while the unbelievers offered sacrifices to false gods.
Jesus stated very clearly sin was not the issue, John 3:17-18,
17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
So sin is to be condemned by what you say,
Notice real close what Jesus stated as to why they are condemned,
Very clear people are sent to the Lake of Fire because they fail to believe, not because of specific sins.
We see in the Revelation of Jesus, Chapter 20, 15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
So how does on get their name written in the book of Life?
John 3 gives the answer, verse 18
Believing on Christ saves, believing what that He was the Savior who died on the cross and HIS blood became the payment for sin. Believing that His efficacious work on the cross, Death, Burial and Resurrection was the only way and means of salvation and that God was satisfied with the one and only true sacrifice Jesus who became the propitiation for all of mankind which can only be effective to those who believe.
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revmwc
I am sorry...but this is error.......there are many who have never heard about Jesus who will be in hell to pays for their sins.
All sins must be paid for.
Heathen sins send heathens to hell even if they never knew anything about Jesus......sin is sin.
The heathen do NOT get a get out of hell free card, because they are heathen.
How can you even suggest this?
I am sorry...but this is error.......there are many who have never heard about Jesus who will be in hell to pays for their sins.
All sins must be paid for.
Heathen sins send heathens to hell even if they never knew anything about Jesus......sin is sin.
The heathen do NOT get a get out of hell free card, because they are heathen.
How can you even suggest this?
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Where in this verse do you see them cast into the Lake of Fire for thier sins?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Where do you see it say these are condemned already because of sin?
Romans 3 is further proof of Faith saving and rejection that is not having faith condemns,
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
The unbeliever is not made righteous, his sin is paid for by the efficacious work of Christ, but they are not made Right with God because of unbelief. We all sin even as believers. Confession restores fellowship because the sinning believer is not condemned to the Lake of Fire but is not condemned because of Faith.
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
The unbeliever is not made righteous, his sin is paid for by the efficacious work of Christ, but they are not made Right with God because of unbelief. We all sin even as believers. Confession restores fellowship because the sinning believer is not condemned to the Lake of Fire but is not condemned because of Faith.
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Prove it....................
That's your man Darby's translation above.
Christ died for the Church --international in scope throughout all ages. Christ died for the elect --the called-out ones. I don't know where you are getting "purchased all biblically based churches composed of such obedient believers."
Christ laid down his life for his sheep. Acts 20:28 applied to that local congregation(s) gathered at Ephesus and all believers in all ages that were chosen in him before the creation of the world.
No, it doesn't say that in Ephesians 5. I want you to name New Testament Bible scholars who make that assertion.
Revmitchell
Do you deny that sinners who are non elect will perish in Adam, if they die in Adam and not in Christ?
Are you suggesting their is any other way to heaven?
Do you deny the wages of sin is death?
Jesus came to save His people from their SINS.....plural... not a single sin of unbelief.
I believe Jesus proved it in jn 8 when he told those jews ;
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
People die in their sins if they do not have Jesus blood cleansing their sins....
they die in their sins......
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Do you deny that sinners who are non elect will perish in Adam, if they die in Adam and not in Christ?
Are you suggesting their is any other way to heaven?
Do you deny the wages of sin is death?
Jesus came to save His people from their SINS.....plural... not a single sin of unbelief.
I believe Jesus proved it in jn 8 when he told those jews ;
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
People die in their sins if they do not have Jesus blood cleansing their sins....
they die in their sins......
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Ok none of that does anything to prove your assertion. You said there are people who never hear about Christ and die and go to hell. Prove there are people who never hear about Christ and die.
revmwc
Do you believe they were not written in the book of life because they had a bad haircut?
The wages of sin is not death?
Atonement was not about sin?
God's wrath is not against sin?
Jesus did not come to save us from our sins?
Is this what you teach? If it is ,it is not the gospel at all.
Isolating verses that do not speak of sin, and denying the fall into sin and death is the problem here once again......I cannot believe you men are saying this at all....
Sin is the problem with all men, they have all sinned and died in adam rom 3:23, 5:12.....they are born spiritually dead in unbelief...unless elected to life and quickened by the Spirit they perish justly for their sins.
Do you believe they were not written in the book of life because they had a bad haircut?
The wages of sin is not death?
Atonement was not about sin?
God's wrath is not against sin?
Jesus did not come to save us from our sins?
Is this what you teach? If it is ,it is not the gospel at all.
Isolating verses that do not speak of sin, and denying the fall into sin and death is the problem here once again......I cannot believe you men are saying this at all....
[/QUOTE]
Sin is the problem with all men, they have all sinned and died in adam rom 3:23, 5:12.....they are born spiritually dead in unbelief...unless elected to life and quickened by the Spirit they perish justly for their sins.
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It is "yours" just as much as it is "mine."
When it comes to the word "ekklesia" Darby translates it correctly and consistently as "assembly" which is the correct meaning.
The LITV (Literal version) is the other translation which does the same:
Act 20:28 Then take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit placed you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God which He purchased through His own blood.
--I prefer Darby's translation over the LITV. But both give a more accurate rendering of at least this word than the other translations. Ekklesia means assembly or congregation. There is no such thing as a universal church. It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly. Darby had the common sense to realize this.
He may have died for the family of God, for the kingdom, for the Bride of Christ, etc. but he did not die for "The Church." There is no "Church," unless you believe in the RCC. This mystic, universal, invisible, imaginary Church does not exist. It cannot. It defies the meaning of ekklesia which can only mean assembly and can only exist in time and space. It assembles--together, is organized, has purpose--carries out the Great Commission; baptizes new converts, and remembers to celebrate the Lord's Table. I have never seen a universal invisible Church do those things.
According to Acts 20:17-28 He laid down his life for the church at Ephesus. Read your Bible.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf,
--My authority is the Bible. The above verse from the LITV should be clear enough. The "assembly" referred to is the one Paul was writing to, the one at Ephesus. There is no such thing as a universal assembly. It is a contradiction of terms. An assembly must assemble.
The word "church" is an inaccurate translation.
When Jesus was hanging on the cross......how did the heathen who died that week worldwide hear about it????? In China, South America, Korea, Japan, how did they hear without a preacher?
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
You are suggesting that they did hear? without a preacher?:BangHead:
where are these people RM? In the land of make believe?
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