Thessalonian Comfort or Future Coming? 2 Thess. 1

[thegospelgeek]

If one of you kind gentlemen can tell me what my attitude is - beyond my mere Preteristness - I would be much obliged. I know that I cross the lines sometimes in my writing and am quite willing to own up to any faults along those lines.

Thanks.

Please take this in love as it is intended. (duck)
<soapbox>
You and Logos can come across as an instigator at times. Many time it appears that you make some snide remarks and then get coarse when others react. We all do this at times. I know I do. But when this happens it is a sad statement for the believer. It is difficult to convey a loving spirit when all you have is the typed word. But all of us on here need to do much better than we do. Self included.</soapbox>

Love and God Bless

 

[asterisktom]

We will just have to agree to disagree. I see the scipture as plainly teaching one form of releif, you see it as another.

I'll settle for that. Have a good day.

 

[Winman]

You insist that their relief must occur in their lifetime, but the scriptures show it future.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These saints had gone through tribulation, they had been slain for Christ's sake. And yet we see them in heaven crying unto the Lord to avenge them. The Lord does not immediately avenge them but gives them white robes and tells them to rest yet for a little season until their fellowservants and brethren should be killed as they were.

This does not specifically identify these saints as the Thessalonians, but it shows that God will revenge them after their death, not within their lifetime.

Do not say I have not responded to your question, this is a very direct answer to your question and shows that this tribulation to occur on those who persecute Christians does not necessarily occur within the lifetime of those Christians.

 

[asterisktom]

Please take this in love as it is intended. (duck)
<soapbox>
You and Logos can come across as an instigator at times. Many time it appears that you make some snide remarks and then get coarse when others react. We all do this at times. I know I do. But when this happens it is a sad statement for the believer. It is difficult to convey a loving spirit when all you have is the typed word. But all of us on here need to do much better than we do. Self included.</soapbox>

Love and God Bless

Thank you. Snideness. I'll have to look over my posts and see where I did that. But please don't mistake my speaking bluntly and directly for snideness. I don't usually use smileys or emphasis-negating qualifiers to statements. But I can imagine that I might be snide at times. If you have an example I will be glad to see it.

Take care.

 

[HankD]

Out of curiousity Tom (or any full preterist):

Will this world of mortal people coming (birth) and going (death) continue on indefinitely?

Will there eventually be a transition from this world to the eternal state?

Are there any other events which occur at this time?

If so, what Scripture do you see as describing this event?

Not a trick or "gotcha!" question. I really would like to know what the full preterist view is concerning this.

Thanks
HankD

 

[HankD]

Not being nit-picky, but I no longer believe this. I used to say that all positions have difficulties, but I can't say that about Preterism. The difficulties arose from false assumptions I had, incorrect presuppositions.

Do we all really believe that all - absolutely all - positions have difficulties? What about the position of the Apostle Paul as he taught the Thessalonians and other churches? What about Christ as He taught in the Olivet Discourse?

You might roll your eyes and say this is obviously different.

But if their position is flawless then there exists a flawless position.
Then it is possible to know that flawless position.
Then it is reasonable that there are Christians on this Earth who already have that flawless position seeing that Spirit of Truth guides us.
But we guarantee that we will never arrive at that position as long we truly believe that "All positions have difficulties."

I will admit that it is a subjective matter of perception and has to do with the definition of terms as well, namely "flawless".


HankD

 

[asterisktom]

I will admit that it is a subjective matter of perception and has to do with the definition of terms as well, namely "flawless".


HankD

Flawless = having no flaws.
Flaws = mistakes; errors, (logical, historical, linguistic, Scriptural, etc.).

Our perception is, I agree, subjective, seeing that our fleshy eyes, mind, and ,well, flesh get in the way. But flawless seems pretty clear.

 

[HankD]

Flawless = having no flaws.
Flaws = mistakes; errors, (logical, historical, linguistic, Scriptural, etc.).

Our perception is, I agree, subjective, seeing that our fleshy eyes, mind, and ,well, flesh get in the way. But flawless seems pretty clear.

On a strictly theoretical level, yes "flawless" would seem pretty clear, but practically speaking your idea of "flawless" and my idea of "flawless" in the preterist reasoning and logic in terms of the substituting of literal words of the Scripture with an allegorical interpretation concerning the Second Coming presents a credibility gap on my part thus clouding the issue of "flawless" from my point of view.

Said substitution seems to me to be a method of glossing over those things in apparent disagreement with the premises of full preterism.

Granted, allegory, imagery, symbolism, etc, etc... are all used of the scripture.

Granted, many would make similar objections concerning my point of view.

BTW Tom did you respond to my post concerning the eternal state and how it will come about?

Thanks
HankD

 

[asterisktom]

BTW Tom did you respond to my post concerning the eternal state and how it will come about?

Thanks
HankD

Sorry, Hank, I didn't just yet. I plan to write on that, but it will take more time than I have right now. Perhaps tomorrow morning. It is a good question and deserves a well-considered response.

But for now I will tell you that I do believe everything has been fulfilled, yes, (Just so no one thinks I am hiding something.)

 

[asterisktom]

On a strictly theoretical level, yes "flawless" would seem pretty clear, but practically speaking your idea of "flawless" and my idea of "flawless" in the preterist reasoning and logic in terms of the substituting of literal words of the Scripture with an allegorical interpretation concerning the Second Coming presents a credibility gap on my part thus clouding the issue of "flawless" from my point of view.

I still think you are needlessly complicating this, and thus you are missing my point, I think.

Forget Preterism fror a sec. Forget futurism. Forget everything except flawlessness - that of, say, Christ's teaching. The very fact that that exists is the foundation for the other things I wrote - leading to the necessary conclusion that not all beliefs (eschatology, whatever) are flawed.

That is all I was saying.

 

[Logos1]

Hi Logos1,

Notice that I underline "this same Jesus" in this quote and the previous one.

It is my conviction that "this same Jesus" means just that, not another person such as Titus in an allegorical answer.

Also notice that they were on the Mount of Olives.

I believe Zechariah adresses His return in the following prophetic passage:

[/LEFT]

Hello Hank,

When it says "this same Jesus" -- you make an excellent point it means this same Jesus who you saw disappear (using this same Jesus for emphasis) is the one who came into heaven.

It uses a rhetorical scheme called an Ellipsis which is a technique to shorten extended phrases which repeat themselves by leaving out later repetitions of the same phrase in this case "to heaven." Just insert "to heaven" after come in and see how naturally it fits. The audience he was writing to understood this but it causes confusion today.

Since the apostles didn't see him go into heaven they needed witnesses to tell their audience that he actually went there. This was important to verify he was the son of God. Remember many were claiming to be the the messiah at that moment in history.

As for Zechariah 14 you are right it certainly does address his return--just not a physical bodily return. Just as the OT told of God coming in judgment against nations here he is coming in judgment as promised against Jerusalem. The 10th legion represents his coming as they worked on the Mt. of Olives, split it--trenched on it and as Revelation mentions 100 lb hail stones they launched 100 lb white rocks into Jerusalem.

You didn't see God come in judgment in a physical way then, but you recognized his presence and work in the armies bringing judgment on a nation. The terms come with his holy ones is found through out the OT. Again you never see God come with his Holy ones but it is a Jewish description of his presence.

The "englishization" if you will of these Jewish phrases causes much confusion if you try to read them as ordinary english and leave behind their Jewish underpinnings.

Regards

 

[HankD]

Hello Hank,

When it says "this same Jesus" -- you make an excellent point it means this same Jesus who you saw disappear (using this same Jesus for emphasis) is the one who came into heaven.

It uses a rhetorical scheme called an Ellipsis which is a technique to shorten extended phrases which repeat themselves by leaving out later repetitions of the same phrase in this case "to heaven." Just insert "to heaven" after come in and see how naturally it fits. The audience he was writing to understood this but it causes confusion today.

Since the apostles didn't see him go into heaven they needed witnesses to tell their audience that he actually went there. This was important to verify he was the son of God. Remember many were claiming to be the the messiah at that moment in history.

As for Zechariah 14 you are right it certainly does address his return--just not a physical bodily return. Just as the OT told of God coming in judgment against nations here he is coming in judgment as promised against Jerusalem. The 10th legion represents his coming as they worked on the Mt. of Olives, split it--trenched on it and as Revelation mentions 100 lb hail stones they launched 100 lb white rocks into Jerusalem.

You didn't see God come in judgment in a physical way then, but you recognized his presence and work in the armies bringing judgment on a nation. The terms come with his holy ones is found through out the OT. Again you never see God come with his Holy ones but it is a Jewish description of his presence.

The "englishization" if you will of these Jewish phrases causes much confusion if you try to read them as ordinary english and leave behind their Jewish underpinnings.

Regards

Thank you for the reponse and this interpretation Logos1.

I really do appreciate the effort as I am sincerely interested in all eschatological views of believers.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Sorry, Hank, I didn't just yet. I plan to write on that, but it will take more time than I have right now. Perhaps tomorrow morning. It is a good question and deserves a well-considered response.

But for now I will tell you that I do believe everything has been fulfilled, yes, (Just so no one thinks I am hiding something.)

Thanks Tom.

You are correct of course, there is a "flawless" interpretaion of every scripture and associated doctrine.


HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

Out of curiousity Tom (or any full preterist):

Will this world of mortal people coming (birth) and going (death) continue on indefinitely?

Will there eventually be a transition from this world to the eternal state?

Are there any other events which occur at this time?

If so, what Scripture do you see as describing this event?

Not a trick or "gotcha!" question. I really would like to know what the full preterist view is concerning this.

Thanks
HankD

Excellent question and one I've had to re-think because of some writings by Sam Frost. They can be found here:

http://thereignofchrist.com/ongoing-fulfillment-a-working-definition/

http://thereignofchrist.com/full-preterism-and-the-problem-of-infinity/

 

[Robert Snow]

Another thread on eschatology....:tonofbricks:

I don't mind another thread on eschatology, especially if it contained new information.

What I do find strange is this poster's obsession with preterism. I do have one good friend who holds to this belief, but he does mention other things. In fact we go to the same church, which holds to dispensational theology. He never makes a fuss about his beliefs though.

Another thing I find strange is, if preterism is so plain, as some would have us believe, why is it no so very few Baptist churches see it?

 

[Robert Snow]

You are using the technique that slick lawyers use in a courtroom. You want to isolate this single verse, because isolated it can be argued to support your point. However, in the full context of the passage it clearly argues against your position.

So, who is being serious? Do you really believe people are so naive as to be fooled by this form of argument?

You are correct, lawyers have their techniques. Tom will gladly continue the discussion only when you limit yourself to his definition and agree with his conclusion.

Off topic:
I had to give a deposition one time. It took about six or eight hours. I found that the attorney would attempt to ask the same question at different times and in different ways, hoping to get a crack to exploit. After answering a question, I would not answer it again. I would simply tell the lawyer I had already answered the question. He would say, "Well, would you mind answering it again?" I would then respond by saying, "The stenographer can read my response to your question." I didn't know a lawyer could turn so many shades of red! :laugh:

 

[J.D.]

Excellent question and one I've had to re-think because of some writings by Sam Frost. They can be found here:

http://thereignofchrist.com/ongoing-fulfillment-a-working-definition/

http://thereignofchrist.com/full-preterism-and-the-problem-of-infinity/

Grasshopper: I read those posts and the one about FP and infinity hit dead center on the problem I have with FP. While I can see both the scripture and logic in the FP position on the bodily resurrection, I cannot fathom a material history or "time" that does not end. There must be a consummation.

 

[HankD]

Hmm, if I am reading this correctly, the full preterist position seems to have sin and death reigning (or at least existing) in this world for eternity.

Even the beggarly elements of science predict an end of the universe, it's called entropy, the heat death of the universe.

I'll await clarification from others.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Just as an addendum, the one thing I have come away with from preterism is that the Roman destruction of the Temple was at least a partial fulfillment of the Second Coming of Christ but not the culmination.

That culmination and the end of the age is yet to come.

And yes, I would say that in answer to the Scripture :

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.​

Is partially fullfilled in the events of Acts chapter 2 when the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. The word "some" in Matthew 16 is tis limits the number in the sense of selectivity such as :"certain ones" i.e. "There are certain ones standing here which shall not taste of death til...".​

Not all "saw" the cloven tongues and heard the mighty rushing wind only certain ones in the house "and it filled all the house where they were sitting".​

The Day of Penetecost and the filling of the Holy Spirit being the first "sign" of the coming of His kingdom (Jesus Christ).​

Then in AD70 there was certain and undeniable cessation of biblical Judaism (as opposed to Talmudic Judaism) and its required ritual of maintenance with the destruction of the Temple which lies in ruin to this very day awaiting the fulfillment of "the times of the Gentiles".​

Why the wait until AD70?​

Because:​

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.​

Along with that as Tom has shown, AD70 brought the death of the then primary persecutors of Christendom, the leadership of biblical Judaism.
Granted it was not long before the Gentiles (Roman Caesars) took up the mantle of persecution of the earthly manifestation of the kingdom of God,
the Church(es) of God.​

HankD (Awaiting His bodily return)​

 

[RAdam]

The ultimate aim of 1 Thess. 1 is not to wet our appetites for viewing men and women punished. That is basically what those that hold the preterist position are arguing. They are saying that these men would have received comfort from seeing the city of Jerusalem destroyed and the nation of the Jews dispersed in chains. The problem is, not even the Roman commander Titus enjoyed this view. It wasn't something to be cheered, but something to be observed solemnly. Paul, in speaking of God's judicial blindness of the Jews, told us to behold the goodness and severity of God. He specifically told the Gentiles not to boast over the unbelieving Jews. Their fall was to be a great example to us in all ages of the severity of God in judgement.

The warfare we are engaged in is not carnal. It is not with flesh and blood. Rather it is spiritual, with the rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high (heavenly) places. We are not to view persecution from a carnal sense, but a spiritual sense. The ultimate comfort for God's people, including these Thessalonians, is not the temporal punishment of some person who is persecuting you. Rather it is the destruction and final punishment of the spiritual powers which are waging continual war with you. These powers are those of the Devil, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.