Thessalonian Comfort or Future Coming? 2 Thess. 1

[asterisktom]

In verse 6, God will do two things: he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and he will give relief to you who are troubled.

The answer as to what this "pay back" looks like and this "relief" looks like is found in verses 9 and 10.

Pay back = being punished with everlasting destruction and being shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.

Relief = Jesus coming to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you have believed our testimony to you.

Both the "pay back" and the "relief" occur at the same time - on that day!

So far, so good. On this we are actually agreed: Pay back and relief happen at the same time.

But I believe that you are still missing the pointed Thessalonian application. This was, after all, a real letter written to Christians who were suffering terribly at the hands of the Jews (as we read in Acts). To these first-century Thessalonians, gathered together to have Paul's personal letter written to them, Paul had personally, by inspiration, promised relief. The relief was not that everything will be rewarded in the end. (Yes, I know that there verses that also teach this truth.)

According to your view (the common view), actually, they would really get no timely relief. They would all die before justice was done.

What the Thessalonian church received from Paul was a promise that God is just - those who persecute the church will be shut out from the presence of God.
They will be punished with everlasting destruction. Those who believe will be included in the holy ones when Jesus comes to be glorified in his holy people.

You make it too general. Read this letter with Thessalonian eyes, not only modern ones. That hard to have been real relief for them. And, historically and scripturally, there was.

The emotional and spiritual impact of this promise forms the foundation for Paul urging them to continue to stand firm - an eternal encouragement and good hope, encouraging and strengthening them and us in every good deed and word (2:16-17).

The promise was a real one. That was the impact.

The question you posed is rather easy to answer from the context of the passage. There is more to life than your present sufferings. God is just. He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you. He will grant relief to those who are persecuted. When? When Jesus Christ is revealed from heaven . . . on that day! Paul is giving them an eternal perspective for a temporal problem!!! Since there is more to life than our present sufferings, stand firm (2:15).

But nowhere in this letter does Paul tell them these things. The stand fast of the next chapter was that they wold not fall for the delusions and false teachings (see the verses just before).

Take a look again at this passage. I emphasized a few things:

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other,

4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [/quote]

Right here is the payback. And it is not a "To whom it concerns". The payback falls right on the ones troubling the Thessalonians - the unbelieving Jews, the very ones who dogged every step of the apostles.1 Thess. 2:14 - 16 speaks more on this.

How are these Jews paid back? When Christ comes to Jerusalem He comes right when Jerusalem is filled to capacity, because of the Passover, with Jews from all over the kingdom. They become, per Jesus' prophecy, trapped.

The ones who gave the Thessalonians such grief are themselves destroyed, brought into captivity. They are no longer able to persecute - empire-wide.



7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


All of the above is the same event, written in apocalyptical language, which is common in the Old Testament.

Christ's coming took them unawares. They did not see it, just as they did not see Elijah's coming in the form of John the Baptist. Though wisdom is justified by her children.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

You have no idea what Preterists believe, or else you wouldn't be writing what you write. Get informed first then come back with your questions.

Sheesh...:BangHead:

I know enough about preterism to know it is a false doctrine that is not supported by the Word of God.

 

[kyredneck]

I know enough about preterism to know it is a false doctrine that is not supported by the Word of God.

No. In calling Preterism a false doctrine you show your ignorance of the Word of God.

 

[kyredneck]

Bringing this back up to this surface for Hank or any other literalist to answer the question; it IS EXTREMELY pertainent:

Originally Posted by HankD
.....preterists, since they say all as been fullfiled (new heaven and new earth).;....

Just curious how the literalist explains this seeming discrepancy:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. Mt 5:18

....ye also were made dead to the law........we have been discharged from the law..... Ro 7:4,6

....the old covenant......is done away..... 2 Cor 3:14

....having abolished ......the law of commandments contained in ordinances....... Eph 2:15

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say, and preterists and amills also, herein lies the answer:

whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12:26,26

 

[Logos1]

Hi lastday,

Thanks.

However, I believe most, if not all preterists here at the BB believe in the Incarnation of the Logos, the Second person of the Trinity and this is that which John is referring. Therefore they would not be gnostics.

Perhaps Tom or Logos1 could confirm that?

The gnostics of John's day denied that Jesus had come in "sarx", i.e. mortal flesh subject to death, born of a woman.
They felt that He was some sort of material manifestation, a kind of emanation of the divine persona but not "sarx".

Therefore, I really don't believe that preterism is anti-christ but just an improper view of eschatology and not an error in Christology.
HankD

Hi Hank,

I see Tom has provided the correct answer to this so I will just say ditto. I don’t know any preterists who don’t agree that Christ came in the flesh at his first coming. Thanks for stating that correctly Hank.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thanks always much Mel!

 

[Logos1]

The Apostles were Preterists Too!

I know enough about preterism to know it is a false doctrine that is not supported by the Word of God.

If you think carefully on this it is easy to see that the apostles thought and taught that Christ was coming back in their generation which makes them Preterists. Do you want to take a position opposite of what the Apostles taught?

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thanks always much Mel!

 

[HankD]

After 21 pages, unless provoked, I believe I will bow out until the next bout.

There is enough Scripture and explanation from all sides for anyone to make a decision should they be so inclined to make one.

God bless to all, preterists, futurists and presentists (thought I would throw that in and cover all the tenses).

HankD

 

[HankD]

HankD,
You write:


Preterists maintain that Christ "continues in both human and divine natures".
But they clearly deny that He is "coming in flesh and bones" after His resurrection.
They also identify the "first resurrection" of Believers as a spiritual "new birth" alone.

I know lastday, but they are not of antichrist as they affirm His humanity. The Greek word translated into "flesh" in koine has a wider scope than the meat on our bones, essentially it means the mortal human nature subject to death and corruption because of sin:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.​

Sin being the exception for Jesus Christ the God-man, Though being born of a woman He willingly received the death penalty in our stead.

If this denial of historic Christian Doctrine is not heresy, I don't know what qualifies.
Paul made acceptance of the Physical Resurrection the bed-rock foundation of truth.
We do injustice to that foundational stance by condoning the teachings of Preterism.
Mel

OK, I agree that it should be opposed and I do, however, I wouldnt personally be so harsh as to call it heresy. Just wrong.

which leads to another question before I retire from this thread.

Do preterists celebrate the Lord's Table since it is a proper ordinance "till He come"?

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.​

HankD

 

[asterisktom]

which leads to another question before I retire from this thread.

Do preterists celebrate the Lord's Table since it is a proper ordinance "till He come"?

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.​

HankD

Very short answer for now: Yes, but not for the former reasons. Perhaps you should make this a new thread?

And thank you for your other comments.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Paul33.

In Post #201 Tom Riggle concludes that all of 2 Thess.1 refers to the same
event and yet calls it an apocalyptic event. He argues that Anesis (#425)
means "relief, not rest". He knows it means either or both "relief AND rest".
In Post #65, 7/23, at 6:03 PM, he used this argument with RAdam to end
persecution in AD 70:

Originally Posted by RAdam:
Consider the passage at hand. He says, "to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels...They were to rest. What if some of them lived until the later Roman persecution? I guess Paul's promise of rest was to be revoked and another period of persecution and tribulation begin. "

Tom, as usual, assumes the "rest" took place in AD 70 and thus removes
its message from any "coming of the Lord Jesus" in the Future:
He wrote:

First of all the word ANESIS means, "relief", not "rest". And that is how the word is used here. That is what we have here: Relief from an actual situation of present pressure - without any intervening time or agent. It is like a beleaguered army is relieved by reinforcements. Or a headache being relieved by an aspirin.

He removes any promise from this passage that gives hope to and for "all who believe at the coming of the Lord Jesus with the angels...to reward every believer". Matt.16:27. Tom eliminates "EVERY BELIEVER" since AD 70 by
"allegorizing" the word of the Lord as if it terminated as of AD 70. There is no evidence, in Scripture or future history, that "every believer" was rewarded!
Tom wrote:

You see the word "reveal" and think it has to be physically visible. Think spiritually. When Jesus told Nathanael...“Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.” John 1:50 - 51.
Now when exactly did Nathanael see this? During Christ's earthly ministry? At His 2nd Coming? Are we even to take it so literally? No. The seeing is figurative - just as the appearing in AD 70 is. But though it is figurative it is nonetheless real.

This is very enlightening..."It was figurative...yet it is nonetheless real"!!
Quote:

Furthermore, the event that would bring rest is the revealing of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Relief, not rest. And the ones Paul is speaking of is not the whole group of wicked mankind in general.... but Jews - in the 50s. Let's not lose sight of audience relevance.

.
Tom has no evidence whatsoever that angels came in "flaming fire to avenge
the Christians" by sending the armies of Rome to destroy the JEWS!!! Mel
__________________

 

[asterisktom]

In Post #201 Tom Riggle concludes that all of 2 Thess.1 refers to the same
event and yet calls it an apocalyptic event.
...
Mel
__________________

I guess this will be "line upon line". I need to run errands today so I will just answer this for now. I am forced to say this otherwise Mel will count the minutes and hours before (or if) I respond, thinking I am nonplussed by his other contentions.


What I said, Mel, was "All of the above is the same event, written in apocalyptical language, which is common in the Old Testament." You see the word "Apocalyptic" and automatically - perhaps even autonomically - think "Book of Revelation". There are other books, other Testaments.

Read for content and context - not ammunition.

 

[Paul33]

So far, so good. On this we are actually agreed: Pay back and relief happen at the same time.

But I believe that you are still missing the pointed Thessalonian application. This was, after all, a real letter written to Christians who were suffering terribly at the hands of the Jews (as we read in Acts). To these first-century Thessalonians, gathered together to have Paul's personal letter written to them, Paul had personally, by inspiration, promised relief. The relief was not that everything will be rewarded in the end. (Yes, I know that there verses that also teach this truth.)

According to your view (the common view), actually, they would really get no timely relief. They would all die before justice was done.



You make it too general. Read this letter with Thessalonian eyes, not only modern ones. That hard to have been real relief for them. And, historically and scripturally, there was.


The promise was a real one. That was the impact.


But nowhere in this letter does Paul tell them these things. The stand fast of the next chapter was that they wold not fall for the delusions and false teachings (see the verses just before).

Take a look again at this passage. I emphasized a few things:

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other,

4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Right here is the payback. And it is not a "To whom it concerns". The payback falls right on the ones troubling the Thessalonians - the unbelieving Jews, the very ones who dogged every step of the apostles.1 Thess. 2:14 - 16 speaks more on this.

How are these Jews paid back? When Christ comes to Jerusalem He comes right when Jerusalem is filled to capacity, because of the Passover, with Jews from all over the kingdom. They become, per Jesus' prophecy, trapped.

The ones who gave the Thessalonians such grief are themselves destroyed, brought into captivity. They are no longer able to persecute - empire-wide.



7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


All of the above is the same event, written in apocalyptical language, which is common in the Old Testament.

Christ's coming took them unawares. They did not see it, just as they did not see Elijah's coming in the form of John the Baptist. Though wisdom is justified by her children.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your response, Tom.

My comments are based on the text. The text itself supplies the meaning of "pay back" and "relief." Your interpretation may be correct, but you will not get it from the text.

In the midst of persecution, I find the truth and promise that "God is just" very meaningful. I am very sure that the Thessalonian church did as well. Those who were persecuting them will be punished with everlasting destruction when Jesus Christ appears in blazing fires with his powerful angels . . . on that day he comes to be glorified in his holy people . . . This includes you. How can this text not be an encouragement to them that God is just, the outcome is certain, and they need to stand firm and hold to the teachings that were passed on to them, namely, that persecution will come and will continue until Jesus comes to overthrow the lawless one (2:8)?

Perhaps you are reading into the text a modern viewpoint. Since the Thessalonian church did not know when Jesus would come to overthrow the lawless one, the promise and truth that God is just is not too general. It is the overarching promise that they were to lay hold of. God is just!

But then Paul teaches them what will happen when Jesus comes. Persecutors of the church, including your persecutors, will be punished with everlasting destruction. You, even if you die, will be counted among the holy people when Jesus comes to be glorified. He echoes what he already taught them in 1 Thess. 4:16.

I do not think this is too general. I think this interpretation is contextual. It is also timely. The Thessalonian believers were encouraged to remember that God is just and that Jesus is coming again. And when he comes, there will be punishment for those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus and there will be relief for those who are the holy people of God.

If I am a Thessalonian believer, I am very encouraged! I will stand firm. I will hold on to the truth. I will die for my faith. I will be raised to life when the trumpet call of God sounds. I will forever be with my Lord. How is that not an encouragement?

As to the fall of Jerusalem being the "relief," what about those who died before Jerusalem fell? Did they then not get the relief that was promised because they did not live to see it? According to your argument against the text of 1 Thess. 2:9-10 being the relief and punishment promised, they would not.

I find that the text of Scripture usually supplies the answer if we are willing to let the Scriptures speak for themselves without reading into what is not there. In this case, "pay back trouble" and "relief" are defined very specifically in the text where they are promised that God is just.

 

[Paul33]

Thanks for your response, Tom.

My comments are based on the text. The text itself supplies the meaning of "pay back" and "relief." Your interpretation may be correct, but you will not get it from the text.

In the midst of persecution, I find the truth and promise that "God is just" very meaningful. I am very sure that the Thessalonian church did as well. Those who were persecuting them will be punished with everlasting destruction when Jesus Christ appears in blazing fires with his powerful angels . . . on that day he comes to be glorified in his holy people . . . This includes you. How can this text not be an encouragement to them that God is just, the outcome is certain, and they need to stand firm and hold to the teachings that were passed on to them, namely, that persecution will come and will continue until Jesus comes to overthrow the lawless one (2:8)?

Perhaps you are reading into the text a modern viewpoint. Since the Thessalonian church did not know when Jesus would come to overthrow the lawless one, the promise and truth that God is just is not too general. It is the overarching promise that they were to lay hold of. God is just!

But then Paul teaches them what will happen when Jesus comes. Persecutors of the church, including your persecutors, will be punished with everlasting destruction. You, even if you die, will be counted among the holy people when Jesus comes to be glorified. He echoes what he already taught them in 1 Thess. 4:16.

I do not think this is too general. I think this interpretation is contextual. The Thessalonian believers were encouraged to remember that God is just and that Jesus is coming again. And when he comes, there will be punishment for those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus and there will be relief for those who are the holy people of God.

If I am a Thessalonian believer, I am very encouraged! I will stand firm. I will hold on to the truth. I will die for my faith. I will be raised to life when the trumpet call of God sounds. I will forever be with my Lord. How is that not an encouragement?

As to the fall of Jerusalem being the "relief," what about those who died before Jerusalem fell? Did they then not get the relief that was promised because they did not live to see it? According to your argument against the text of 1 Thess. 2:9-10 being the relief and punishment promised, they would not.

I find that the text of Scripture usually supplies the answer if we are willing to let the Scriptures speak for itself without reading into what is not there. In this case, "pay back trouble" and "relief" are defined very specifically in the text where the Thessalonians are promised that God is just.

 

[asterisktom]

Thanks for your response, Tom.

My comments are based on the text. The text itself supplies the meaning of "pay back" and "relief." Your interpretation may be correct, but you will not get it from the text.

In the midst of persecution, I find the truth and promise that "God is just" very meaningful. I am very sure that the Thessalonian church did as well. Those who were persecuting them will be punished with everlasting destruction when Jesus Christ appears in blazing fires with his powerful angels . . . on that day he comes to be glorified in his holy people . . . This includes you. How can this text not be an encouragement to them that God is just, the outcome is certain, and they need to stand firm and hold to the teachings that were passed on to them, namely, that persecution will come and will continue until Jesus comes to overthrow the lawless one (2:8)?

Perhaps you are reading into the text a modern viewpoint. Since the Thessalonian church did not know when Jesus would come to overthrow the lawless one, the promise and truth that God is just is not too general. It is the overarching promise that they were to lay hold of. God is just!

But then Paul teaches them what will happen when Jesus comes. Persecutors of the church, including your persecutors, will be punished with everlasting destruction. You, even if you die, will be counted among the holy people when Jesus comes to be glorified. He echoes what he already taught them in 1 Thess. 4:16.

I do not think this is too general. I think this interpretation is contextual. The Thessalonian believers were encouraged to remember that God is just and that Jesus is coming again. And when he comes, there will be punishment for those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus and there will be relief for those who are the holy people of God.

If I am a Thessalonian believer, I am very encouraged! I will stand firm. I will hold on to the truth. I will die for my faith. I will be raised to life when the trumpet call of God sounds. I will forever be with my Lord. How is that not an encouragement?

As to the fall of Jerusalem being the "relief," what about those who died before Jerusalem fell? Did they then not get the relief that was promised because they did not live to see it? According to your argument against the text of 1 Thess. 2:9-10 being the relief and punishment promised, they would not.

I find that the text of Scripture usually supplies the answer if we are willing to let the Scriptures speak for itself without reading into what is not there. In this case, "pay back trouble" and "relief" are defined very specifically in the text where the Thessalonians are promised that God is just.

Maybe we are coming to the diminishing returns these discussions often lead to. You say I need to let the context determine - and that is what I say you should do. We both say that the other is reading into the passage a modern meaning.

I don't know what else I can say. I guess we will just agree to disagree.

 

[Paul33]

Maybe we are coming to the diminishing returns these discussions often lead to. You say I need to let the context determine - and that is what I say you should do. We both say that the other is reading into the passage a modern meaning.

I don't know what else I can say. I guess we will just agree to disagree.

Or you can agree to let the text interpret itself!

Seriously, you have not responded to the point that I made that the text itself defines and explains "pay back trouble" and "relief."

If Paul explains what "pay back trouble" and "relief" means, and then explicitly states when this will take place - "when Jesus appears in blazing fire . . . on that day," how can you argue that the Thessalonians did not know what was being promised to them if they understood the text to mean that relief from persecution will come "on that day"? They clearly had Paul's teaching on this topic with the first letter to the Thessalonians, where Paul expounds on Matthew 24.

I am at a loss as to how you can reject the interpretation that relief from persecution for the Thessalonians (and all of the church) happens at the coming of Christ when he executes justice. I am also at a loss as to how you think this would not bring encouragement to them? Their concern in the first letter was what would happen to those who die before the return of Christ. In this letter, there is ongoing concern about their persecution. Paul is crystal clear in his response. God is just. The wicked will be punished. You will be numbered among the holy people.

What don't you understand? What can't you see from the text? How is this difficult?

Any one else want to jump in?

 

[asterisktom]

Or you can agree to let the text interpret itself!

Seriously, you have not responded to the point that I made that the text itself defines and explains "pay back trouble" and "relief."

I have explained it. I went into great detail.

 

[lastday]

Paul33
EXCELLENT! YOU'VE DONE THE BEST OF ALL OF US!! YOU PUT RIGGLE IN HIS PLACE!!!
Originally Posted by asterisktom

Maybe we are coming to the diminishing returns these discussions often lead to. You say I need to let the context determine - and that is what I say you should do. We both say that the other is reading into the passage a modern meaning.
I don't know what else I can say. I guess we will just agree to disagree.

Your Decisive Response:

Or you can agree to let the text interpret itself!

Mel

 

[Eagle]

Or you can agree to let the text interpret itself!

Seriously, you have not responded to the point that I made that the text itself defines and explains "pay back trouble" and "relief."

If Paul explains what "pay back trouble" and "relief" means, and then explicitly states when this will take place - "when Jesus appears in blazing fire . . . on that day," how can you argue that the Thessalonians did not know what was being promised to them if they understood the text to mean that relief from persecution will come "on that day"? They clearly had Paul's teaching on this topic with the first letter to the Thessalonians, where Paul expounds on Matthew 24.

I am at a loss as to how you can reject the interpretation that relief from persecution for the Thessalonians (and all of the church) happens at the coming of Christ when he executes justice. I am also at a loss as to how you think this would not bring encouragement to them? Their concern in the first letter was what would happen to those who die before the return of Christ. In this letter, there is ongoing concern about their persecution. Paul is crystal clear in his response. God is just. The wicked will be punished. You will be numbered among the holy people.

What don't you understand? What can't you see from the text? How is this difficult?

Any one else want to jump in?

Hello Paul33,

Actually, I already did! "Jump in" that is. What you are saying here is essentially the same, I think, as what I said back in Post #74 - of this same thread. It may be bad form, but I am quoting it here again:

I see nothing in this passage, were I alive in Thessalonica back in the day, that would make me; 1) believe that there had to be physical "relief," "rest," etc., shortly on the way; 2) feel "wronged" by God for allowing me to continue to endure the persecution of the day. But what I would have been is: 1) encouraged by knowing that it was righteous and even normal to be persecuted as my Lord had been, and that God recognized this fact. 2) that God also recognized whom was doing the persecuting and that they would get theirs - one day. This same principle is taught in many other places throughout scripture - nothing different to be found here.

Christians have been persecuted through the centuries since 70 AD - so where is the "rest" for all of them/us - if the Lord has come? Do you seriously think that ONLY these Thessalonians of that day were to be given "rest" at Christ's return?

Who is the "us" as in "rest with us" from v. 7? If Paul wrote it - did it not include Paul? Was Paul even "alive" in 70 AD; did he receive his rest then? If Paul understood it to mean very short term rest/relief from physical persecution, synonymous with the return of Christ during his lifetime - contemporary with the then living Thessalonians - he rather missed the boat didn't he?

Also, God really had to have vengeance on dem bad ole Jews of that day for 'knowing not God' and 'disobeying the Gospel' (v. 8) - in flaming fire no less - but all the other persecutors thru history since 70 AD - not so much?

Christ came and was 'glorified in His saints' and 'admired by all them that believe' (v. 10) - except there is really no definitive historical record of it. It was apparently soon forgotten by His "glorifying" and "admiring" followers as well - because they too left no record of it for us today, and most of us don't believe it ever happened.

I must say, this seminal event, this epochal moment, this one, single, much prophesied of, and much ballyhooed return of Christ didn't leave much of an impression at all - did it? This is to say nothing of the unfulfilled portions of scripture/prophecy yet remaining.

Just a few observations.

 

[asterisktom]

If Paul explains what "pay back trouble" and "relief" means, and then explicitly states when this will take place - "when Jesus appears in blazing fire . . . on that day," how can you argue that the Thessalonians did not know what was being promised to them if they understood the text to mean that relief from persecution will come "on that day"? They clearly had Paul's teaching on this topic with the first letter to the Thessalonians, where Paul expounds on Matthew 24.

When did I say all this? At any rate, Jesus did appear, but not in "blazing fire". The actual verse is:

"the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

The flaming fire is the vengeance he takes on His enemies. But you have to remember that this is apocalyptic language. I believe you are reading modern, literal meaning into this text. Consider Psalm 18

" 7 Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of the hills also quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
10 And He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
He flew upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His secret place;
His canopy around Him was dark waters
And thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him,
His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire."

This judgment already happened. Was there devouring fire from Him? Literally? If not then, why does it seem so strange that it was not literally in AD 70?

Isaiah 19 sounds like Revelation and worldwide destruction, but is God's judgment on Egypt.

1 The burden against Egypt.

Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud,
And will come into Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence,
And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.
2 “ I will set Egyptians against Egyptians;
Everyone will fight against his brother,
And everyone against his neighbor,
City against city, kingdom against kingdom.


Did the Lord ride on a cloud then?

The reason why this is a hard point to get across, especially today, is that Christians just do not read the Old testament as they should. If they would they would have recognized apocalyptic imagery when they see it in the New Testament.

 

[asterisktom]

Paul33
EXCELLENT! YOU'VE DONE THE BEST OF ALL OF US!! YOU PUT RIGGLE IN HIS PLACE!!!
Originally Posted by asterisktom

Your Decisive Response:

Mel

Mr. ALLCAPS,

I'm not sure that they have put me in my place. I will say this: that they have been diligent in bringing up points and, I do believe, that they are really trying to understand where I am coming from. In a word - they are being respectful.

Hint.