This Do, and Thou Shalt Live

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: The Aorist tense destroys your position - Grammar

HP: In your own mind maybe.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Some cannot separate theory from fact. The federal headship theory supported by Biblicist is not fact but Calvinistic theory.

We need to develop a new board game for believers. We could call it, "Fact or .................Theory.?:smilewinkgrin:

I wonder if we would get sued by the makers of "Fact or Crap?":laugh:

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: In your own mind maybe.

Like I said, you don't care what the Scripture actually and literally says. You write the Bible as you go! The Holy Spirit chose the Aorist tense much to your dismay but that it cannot be translated as a FUTURE tense as your illustration demands.

You are only advertising your own ignorance.

 

[The Biblicist]

Some cannot separate theory from fact. The federal headship theory supported by Biblicist is not fact but Calvinistic theory.

We need to develop a new board game for believers. We could call it, "Fact or .................Theory.?:smilewinkgrin:

I wonder if we would get sued by the makers of "Fact or Crap?":laugh:

The scripture is very clear and very explicit in identifying Christ as the "last Adam" and in contrast to the first Adam (1 Cor. 15:43-46; Rom. 5:14b).

The scripture is very clear and very explicit in Romans 5:14b-19 that Adam and Christ act as representatives for "many" in regard to their own actions.

You are simply advertising your ignorance!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The words "BE DEAD" in verse 15 prove your position and interpretation are wrong!

It is an AORIST ACTIVE INDICATIVE and thus it is not BY OUR OFFENCES we died but BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY BE DEAD or more literally "DIED"!

No one disputes that the words "be dead" in verse 15 speaks of something that has already happened. However, that helps you in no way.

Paul says that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

The Greek word translated "have sinned" in in the second aorist tense so of course later Paul would speak of those same deaths as already happened.

So nothing about that helps you case in any way.

The important question is whether the death spoken of comes as a result of Adam's sin or as a result of a man's own sin. Paul made it plain that the death comes as a result of a man's own sins:

"...death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Since that completely destroys your ideas you must pervert what Paul sais so you just edit what Paul wrote by adding the following words in "bold":

"...death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

According to you Paul's complete discourse on this subject is always in regard to Adam's sin and it never speaks of death being brought about by a man's own sin. However, you continue to justy IGNORE this verse which proves you are wrong:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

It was by Adam's sin that many were made "sinners." A person does not become a "murderer" until he murders someone and no one becomes a "robber" until he robs someone. It is also true that no one becomes a "sinner" until he sins. So Romans 5:19 is not talking about Adam's sin at all. Even John Calvin affirms that truth:

"This is no tautology, but a necessary explanation of the former verse. For he shows that we are guilty through the offense of one man, in such a manner as not to be ourselves innocent. He had said before, that we are condemned; but that no one might claim for himself innocence, he also subjoined, that every one is condemned because he is a sinner" (John Calvin, Commentary on Romans 5:19).

 

[The Biblicist]

No one disputes that the words "be dead" in verse 15 speaks of something that has already happened. However, that helps you in no way.

Paul says that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

The Greek word translated "have sinned" in in the second aorist tense so of course later Paul would speak of those same deaths as already happened.

So nothing about that helps you case in any way.

It not only helps me but absolutely denies your FUTURE conditional application of both texts (Rom. 5:12; 15). Both aorists point to the SAME COMPLETED ACTION when Adam sinned.

Neither is an Aorist SUBJUNCTIVE and neither is a CONDITIONAL clause. One or the other would be necessary for you interpretation of both verses.

This condemns your theory completely and fully without question or reservation!

The important question is whether the death spoken of comes as a result of Adam's sin or as a result of a man's own sin. Paul made it plain that the death comes as a result of a man's own sins:

"...death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

The "death" passed upon all men is the "dead" state of human nature which occurred AORIST TENSE COMPLETED ACTION "by one man's offence."

Adam reproduced after his own kind = spiritual dead human nature consisting of spirit, soul and body.

Since that completely destroys your ideas you must pervert what Paul sais so you just edit what Paul wrote by adding the following words in "bold":

"...death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

According to you Paul's complete discourse on this subject is always in regard to Adam's sin and it never speaks of death being brought about by a man's own sin. However, you continue to justy IGNORE this verse which proves you are wrong:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

When Adam died spiritually so did all He represent (imputation). When Adam died spiritually so did all human nature and thus all "were made sinners" by union with him in that sin and all received spiritual death because it is His human nature dead in sin that is "passed" down from generation to generation by birth and the obvious evidential proof is that infants not only die but need no training to do evil as it comes by nature from the womb!

It was by Adam's sin that many were made "sinners." A person does not become a "murderer" until he murders someone and no one becomes a "robber" until he robs someone. It is also true that no one becomes a "sinner" until he sins. So Romans 5:19 is not talking about Adam's sin at all. Even John Calvin affirms that truth:

"This is no tautology, but a necessary explanation of the former verse. For he shows that we are guilty through the offense of one man, in such a manner as not to be ourselves innocent. He had said before, that we are condemned; but that no one might claim for himself innocence, he also subjoined, that every one is condemned because he is a sinner" (John Calvin, Commentary on Romans 5:19).

I have never read John Calvin, never plan to read John Calvin! He is wrong just as you are wrong on this passage.

You both fail to understand that both men acted as REPRESENTATIVES of others and what they did was imputed and imparted to those they represented. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians that all DIE "IN ADAM" and that Jesus Christ is the "Last Adam" and thus both men acted in REPRESENTATIVE capacity in Romans 5:14b!

Hence, when Adam sinned all he represented were "made sinners" both by imputation and impartation BEFORE they ever individually sinned. They sin because they are born sinners and they are born sinners because they "were made sinners" by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE (Imputation) and they "were made sinners" by nature because when Adam died they "died" and that spiritual death was "PASSED DOWN" through generation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It not only helps me but absolutely denies your FUTURE conditional application of both texts (Rom. 5:12; 15). Both aorists point to the SAME COMPLETED ACTION when Adam sinned.

I NEVER said that my interpretation depends on a future conditional application of any of the texts. I said:

Paul says that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

The Greek word translated "have sinned" in in the second aorist tense so of course later Paul would speak of those same deaths as already happened.

To say that the use of the aorist tense later in the discourse in regard to the same thing somehow undermines my position is ludicrous!

Let us look at the following verse;

"But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Ro.5:15).

The Greek word translated "hath abounded" is in the "aorist" tense but that does not mean that a person did nothing to receive the gift by grace. The only people who are justified freely by God's grace are those who believe.

So just because the aorist tense in used at Romans 5:12 & 15 does not mean that a person died spiritually as a result of Adam's sin. You are grasping at straws in order to attempt to justify your act of perverting what Paul said here by adding the words in "bold":

"...death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

 

[The Biblicist]

I NEVER said that my interpretation depends on a future conditional application of any of the texts. I said:

Paul says that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

The Greek word translated "have sinned" in in the second aorist tense so of course later Paul would speak of those same deaths as already happened.

To say that the use of the aorist tense later in the discourse in regard to the same thing somehow undermines my position is ludicrous!

What you are saying above is ludicrous!!! Paul is saying that at the precise point in time Adam completed his offence all his posterity "were made sinners" by LEGAL imputation and at that precise moment they all "died" because the WHOLE HUMAN NATURE was contained in Adam and when Adam acted so did the WHOLE HUMAN NATURE and thus when he died spiritually what died was the WHOLE HUMAN NATURE as that is what he passed down from generation to generation.

Absolute proof is that infants died WITHOUT ANY INDIVIDUAL SINS and therefore they are SINNERS by nature and the absolute proof is that all infants who do not die but live manifest that SINFUL nature BEFORE they are trained to know right from wrong - EVIL comes naturally by birth from the womb.

Let us look at the following verse;

"But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Ro.5:15).

The Greek word translated "hath abounded" is in the "aorist" tense but that does not mean that a person did nothing to receive the gift by grace. The only people who are justified freely by God's grace are those who believe.

When Christ lived on earth and died and was resurrected he acted as the LEGAL representative for all those chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world (Jn. 17:2; Jn. 6:37-45,64-65). They received it exactly as the posterity of Adam received his nature, condemnation, death THROUGH BIRTH! The difference between them is PHYSICAL BIRTH versus NEW BIRTH. New birth is a soverign act of God produce by His will not the will of man (Jn. 1:13; James 1:18).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Earlier I said:

Let us look at the following verse:

"But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Ro.5:15).

The Greek word translated "hath abounded" is in the "aorist" tense but that does not mean that a person did nothing to receive the gift by grace. The only people who are justified freely by God's grace are those who believe.

To this you said:

When Christ lived on earth and died and was resurrected he acted as the LEGAL representative for all those chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world (Jn. 17:2; Jn. 6:37-45,64-65). They received it exactly as the posterity of Adam received his nature, condemnation, death THROUGH BIRTH!

So are you saying that those who receive the free gift receive it without believing?

If it was imputed to them in the same way that you say that "death" is imputed to man (as a result of Adam's sin) then that must be your argument. Imagine that! A person does not have to do anything to receive the gift.

Yes, a person is chosen "in Christ" for salvation before the foundation of the world but being chosen for salvation depends on a person believing the truth:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

New birth is a soverign act of God produce by His will not the will of man (Jn. 1:13; James 1:18).

Are you saying that a person can will himself to believe the gospel?

How is that possible? If a person is making an effort to "will" himself to believe something then that can only mean that he already believes that thing. If he already believes the gospel then he would make no sense to assert that he is willing himself to believe something that he already knows is true.

Now please answer my question. If you are right and the free gift is imputed to men in the same way that you say that "death" is imputed to man (as a result of Adam's sin) then those who receive the gift do nothing to receive it.

Is that what you are saying?

 

[The Biblicist]

Earlier I said:

Let us look at the following verse:

"But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Ro.5:15).

The Greek word translated "hath abounded" is in the "aorist" tense but that does not mean that a person did nothing to receive the gift by grace. The only people who are justified freely by God's grace are those who believe.

To this you said:

So are you saying that those who receive the free gift receive it without believing?

I beleive the new birth is inseparable with conversion in a cause and effect relationship so that the new birth is not finished until conversion occurs. Hence, what Christ did as a respresentative man is received through birth just as what Adam did as a representative man is received through birth. The difference is that one is NATURAL birth and the other is SUPERnatural birth.

If it was imputed to them in the same way that you say that "death" is imputed to man (as a result of Adam's sin) then that must be your argument. Imagine that! A person does not have to do anything to receive the gift.

Is that not what a "FREE" gift is? FREE!

Yes, a person is chosen "in Christ" for salvation before the foundation of the world but being chosen for salvation depends on a person believing the truth:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

Are you saying that a person can will himself to believe the gospel?

You do make a distinction between the prepositions "to" versus "through" or a proper definition of either!

Before the world began he was chosen "TO" salvation! He was not chosen "BECAUSE OF" salvation but "TO" salvation! God chose the MEANS ("through") as much as God chose the persons. The chosen MEANS ("through") of salvation was "sanctification of the Spirit" or setting apart by the Spirit in the work of regeneration - creating them in Christ Jesus. In addition to ["and"]quickening by the Spirit "belief of the truth" or conversion. The work of the Spirit precedes and is the causal effect of belief in the truth and together they constitute the effectual call through the gospel (v. 14). However, election is TO salvation while the sanctification/belief is the MEANS by which salvation is obtained in time and space. Choice by God precedes and is causal to obtaining salvation in time and space.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is that not what a "FREE" gift is? FREE!

"Eternal life" is a free gift:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:23).

Only those who "believe" receive this free gift:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:15-16).

Now I will ask you again:

"So are you saying that those who receive the free gift receive it without believing?"

Now let us look at the following passage again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

To this you say:

You do make a distinction between the prepositions "to" versus "through" or a proper definition of either!

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "through" at 2 Thess.2:13 is "by" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

There are two preopositional phrases in the verse:

"through sanctification of the Spirit..."

"[through] belief of the truth."

Both are adverbial phrases and they serve to modify the verb "hath chosen."

From the beginning God chose some to be saved and the method he used to determine who He would chose was "belief of the truth" and "sanctification of the Spirit."

The following verse is speaking of the same thing:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "according" at 1 Peter 1:2 is "in consequence of" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So the saved are described as "elect" and their election is "in consequence of" God's foreknowledge. With this established let us look at the verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "sanctification" is "consecration" and that word means "to separate from things profaneand dedicate to God" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The following verse describes this consecration when believers are separated from things profane and dedicated to God:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the Body of Christ" (1 Cor.12:13,27).

And that is exactly what Paul is referring to when he uses the word 'in Him" in the following verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).

So we are chosen to salvation by the sanctification of the Spirit and that is the method God uses to save us. And the other criteria which determines whom God choses for salvation is "belief in the truth."

So no one is chosen for salvation until they believe the gospel and no one is placed "in Christ" until they believe.

Now please answer my question:

"So are you saying that those who receive the free gift receive it without believing?"

Thanks!

 

[The Biblicist]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
"Eternal life" is a free gift:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:23).

Only those who "believe" receive this free gift:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:15-16).

Now I will ask you again:

"So are you saying that those who receive the free gift receive it without believing?"



There is eternal life by quickening which creates a new heart in the elect. It is with this new heart that man believeth "with the heart man beleiveth" (Rom. 10:10).

There is eternal life by justification which follows faith. Justification is the reversal of condemnation UNTO DEATH to justification UNTO LIFE.

Hence, SPIRITUAL quickening precedes faith but LEGAL justification of life follows faith. Both are eternal life. The former is eternal life by IMPARTATION whereas the latter is by IMPUTATION. The former has to do with your CONDITION whereas the latter has to do with your legal POSITION as declared by law. The former has to do with your own person as God's "child" whereas the latter has to do with your legal inheritance as God's "son." The former is SPIRITUAL life whereas the latter is LEGAL life but both are ETERNAL and both are LIFE!

John 5:24 contains both. The believing one has eternal life (judicial) because he has passed from death unto life (spiritual) at new birth.

John 3:16 has to do with judicial life in contrast to legal condemnation (Jn. 3:17-18).

I know you will not accept this, but you are asking how do I reconcile it. That is how!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
Now let us look at the following passage again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

To this you say:

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "through" at 2 Thess.2:13 is "by" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

There are two preopositional phrases in the verse:

"through sanctification of the Spirit..."

"[through] belief of the truth."

Both are adverbal and they serve to modify the verb "hath chosen."

From the beginning God chose some to be saved and the method he used to determine who He would chose was "belief of the truth" and "sanctification of the Spirit."


First, note how you REVERSE the order of "santification" and "belief" above! You must do this because you understand that sanctification of the Spirit preceding "belief" of the truth could not be affected by the will of man in the Biblical order and so you reverse it.

Second you have changed the means into a CONDITIONAL method for determining who God will choose to salvation. However, the prepositional phrases are not causual. They do not provide any causes for choice but rather consequences. This is clearly proven by Ephesians 1:4 where God's choice is the cause and the consequences are "might be holy and blameless before him in love" rather than they were chosen BECAUSE they were holy and blameless."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
The following verse is speaking of the same thing:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "according" at 1 Peter 1:2 is "in consequence of" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Foreknowledge is a consequence not the cause of Divine purpose in Romans 8:28-29. Divine purpose precedes both foreknolwedge and predestination in Romans 8:28-29 just as foreknowledge and predestination precede calling, justificaiton and glorification.

A builder has a blue print and because of that blue print he knows before hand where each room has been predetermined. Likewise, election is based upon God's foreknowledge of His purpose for election. That purpose is spelled out in such passages as Ephesians 1:4-13; John 6:37-37; 17:2-3; etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "sanctification" is "consecration" and that word means "to separate from things profaneand dedicate to God" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).


Your problem is that the order (you reverse BTW) given by Paul is that sanctification precedes beleif of the truth and yet it is belief of the truth that consecrates not vice versa! So you are not only guilty of reversing the order but the order given by Paul repudiates your misinterpretation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
The following verse describes this consecration when believers are separated from things profane and dedicated to God:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the Body of Christ" (1 Cor.12:13,27).


I don't have time here to provide a complete contextual analysis of this text. However, I will just shoot from the hip and tell you this verse refers to the problem and solution for that problem in 1 Corinthians 1-3. They had been divided over their baptismal administrators and Paul's solution is that all baptismal administrator work as ONE under the leadership of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:5-10) in building the congregation at Corinth or any local congregation as a "temple" of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16). Hence, under the leadership of One Spirit they had been water baptized into one body, one in kind, the kind found at Corinth (v. 27) and made to partake of his presence by the very fact that God the Holy Spirit instead of the human administrator set the members in the body as it pleased him (1 Cor. 12:18) even the bad ones (1 Cor. 11:17-18) providing the spiritual gifts that ministered to all the members (I Cor. 12:1-11; 14:1-41).

So this text has nothing to do with your argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
And that is exactly what Paul is referring to when he uses the word 'in Him" in the following verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).


Another equally false interpretation. Note the consequential phrase "THAT we SHOULD BE" not because He foresaw us to be and those chose us! Furthermore, the baptism in the Spirit occured on the day of Pentecost and yet all the saints prior to Pentecost were chose to salvation as much as those after Pentecost and they could not have been baptized in the Spirit (Rom. 4; Gal. 3:6-8; Heb. 11; Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; etc.).

THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF CHRIST so all saints in all ages had to be chosen "IN" Christ.

So, I have answered your questions and corrected you false interpretations. However, I doubt if my answers will be accepted.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So, I have answered your questions and corrected you false interpretations. However, I doubt if my answers will be accepted.

We can see that in order to answer my question you say that the Scriptures speak of a person receiving two separate and distinct 'lifes" which are described as being "eternal":

There is eternal life by quickening which creates a new heart in the elect. It is with this new heart that man believeth "with the heart man beleiveth" (Rom. 10:10).

There is eternal life by justification which follows faith. Justification is the reversal of condemnation UNTO DEATH to justification UNTO LIFE.

Since you cannot answer the points which I make you just "invent" an "eternal life" that is separate and distinct from the one which is found in the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (Jn.5:11).

How does a person receive this eternal life?:

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:15-16).

But you invent another 'eternal life" which you think a person receives BEFORE he believes:

There is eternal life by quickening which creates a new heart in the elect. It is with this new heart that man believeth "with the heart man beleiveth" (Rom. 10:10).

Let us look at a verse which the Calvinists admit refers to regeneration:

"...even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with (syzōopoieō) Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" (Eph.2:5).

Here the Greek word syzōopoieō is translated "hath made us alive together."

The Greek word syzōopoieō is made up of two words, zōopoieō and syn.

The word zōopoieō means to "make alive, give life" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The word syn means "with, besides, accompany...a primary preposition denoting union" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when a person is regenerated he is made alive together with Christ or placed in union with Him. The following verse desribes that union we have with the Lord Jesus and it also describes the life we enjoy when we are made alive together with Him:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

That is the same exact 'eternal life" which only comes to those who believe!

When a verse does not fit your view you just add words to it until it does. Now we see that you must invent another "eternal life" that is separate and distinct from the one which only comes by "faith."

 

[The Biblicist]

We can see that in order to answer my question you say that the Scriptures speak of a person receiving two separate and distinct 'lifes" which are described as being "eternal":

Since you cannot answer the points which I make you just "invent" an "eternal life" that is separate and distinct from the one which is found in the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (Jn.5:11).

How does a person receive this eternal life?:

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:15-16).

ut you invent another 'eternal life" which you think a person receives BEFORE he believes:

What I have stated is what I have believed for years long before I ever entered this discussion with you. It is no invention on my part but a clear distinction between regenerative life by the Spirit and judicial life by the decree of God's law that reverses condemnation to death to justification of life.

Let us look at a verse which the Calvinists admit refers to regeneration:

"...even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with (syzōopoieō) Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" (Eph.2:5).

Here the Greek word syzōopoieō is translated "hath made us alive together."

The Greek word syzōopoieō is made up of two words, zōopoieō and syn.

The word zōopoieō means to "make alive, give life" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The word syn means "with, besides, accompany...a primary preposition denoting union" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when a person is regenerated he is made alive together with Christ or placed in union with Him. The following verse desribes that union we have with the Lord Jesus and it also describes the life we enjoy when we are made alive together with Him:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

That is the same exact 'eternal life" which only comes to those who believe!

When a verse does not fit your view you just add words to it until it does. Now we see that you must invent another "eternal life" that is separate and distinct from the one which only comes by "faith."

There is spiritual union with Christ by quickening and there is legal union with Christ by justification both are union with Christ but both are not equal. One is SPIRITUAL whereas the other is LEGAL.

It does not take too much common sense to see that regeneration and justification are not one and the same. The first has to do with you own PERSON whereas the latter has to do with your POSITION. The former IMPARTS life while the latter IMPUTES life. The former has to do with become a child (tekna) while the latter has do with becoming a legal heir (huios) "son."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is spiritual union with Christ by quickening and there is legal union with Christ by justification both are union with Christ but both are not equal. One is SPIRITUAL whereas the other is LEGAL.

The Calvinist admit that this verse is speaking a spiritual union with Christ:

"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions" (Col.2:12-13).

We can also see that this regeneration does not happen until a person has his transgressions or sins forgiven--"having forgiven us all our transgressions."

We also know that no one has their sins forgiven until they believe:

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43).; NIV).

According to your bankrupt theology before a person believes he can be in spiritual union with Christ even though his sins are not forgiven. According to you a person can remain unrighteous and be in spiritual union with the Lord Jesus! But that is impossible:

"For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor.6:14).

A person is not made righteous until he believes:

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Ro.10:10).

A person does not receive the righteousness which is of God until he believes so therefore he cannot be in spiritual "union" with Christ until he believes. After all, "what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?"

According to your mistaken ideas a person who has not had his sins forgiven and therefore remains defiled by those sins can be in a spiritual union with the holy Jesus Christ.

You also believe that an unrighteous person can be in spiritual union with the Righteous Lord Jesus.

When a verse does not fit your view you just add words to that verse until it fits your theology. Then when you cannot explain the fact that no one receives the gift of eternal life except by faith you just invent another separate and distinct "eternal life" that is obtained apart from faith!

 

[The Biblicist]

The Calvinist admit that this verse is speaking a spiritual union with Christ:

"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions" (Col.2:12-13).

We can also see that this regeneration does not happen until a person has his transgressions or sins forgiven--"having forgiven us all our transgressions."

We also know that no one has their sins forgiven until they believe:

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43).; NIV).

According to your bankrupt theology before a person believes he can be in spiritual union with Christ even though his sins are not forgiven. According to you a person can remain unrighteous and be in spiritual union with the Lord Jesus! But that is impossible:

"For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor.6:14).

A person is not made righteous until he believes:

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Ro.10:10).

A person does not receive the righteousness which is of God until he believes so therefore he cannot be in spiritual "union" with Christ until he believes. After all, "what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?"

According to your mistaken ideas a person who has not had his sins forgiven and therefore remains defiled by those sins can be in a spiritual union with the holy Jesus Christ.

You also believe that an unrighteous person can be in spiritual union with the Righteous Lord Jesus.

When a verse does not fit your view you just add words to that verse until it fits your theology. Then when you cannot explain the fact that no one receives the gift of eternal life except by faith you just invent another separate and distinct "eternal life" that is obtained apart from faith!

Regeneration and conversion are simeltaneous in time but in a cause and effect logical relationship with each other.

So one is not without the other. Remission of sins is part of justification (Rom. 4:7-8 is it not? Hence, the text provides the initial cause - spiritual life, concluding with consequence of justification forgiveness of sins.

Look, what is the laws verdict in regard to sinners? Condemnation! Correct. Condemnation to what? Death in its fullness - ETERNAL DEATH.

Justification is the legal reversal of that verdict. What would be the legal reversal of that verdict? ETERNAL LIFE!

Like I said, you won't accept it but you asked for my answer and I have given it to you repeatedly.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Regeneration and conversion are simeltaneous in time but in a cause and effect logical relationship with each other.

So one is not without the other. Remission of sins is part of justification (Rom. 4:7-8 is it not? Hence, the text provides the initial cause - spiritual life, concluding with consequence of justification forgiveness of sins.

You want to ignore the fact that if a person is regenerated prior to faith then "logically" that person is in spiritual union with Christ while his sins remain unforgiven and he remains unrighteous. But that is impossible:

"For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor.6:14).

A person is not made righteous until he believes:

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Ro.10:10).

A person does not receive the righteousness which is of God until he believes so therefore "logically" he cannot be in spiritual union with Christ until he believes. After all, "what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?"

According to your mistaken ideas a person who has not had his sins forgiven and therefore remains defiled by those sins can be in a spiritual union with the holy Jesus Christ.

You also believe that "logically" an unrighteous person can be in spiritual union with the Righteous Lord Jesus.

When a verse does not fit your view you just add words to that verse until it fits your theology. Then when you cannot explain the fact that no one receives the gift of eternal life except by faith you just invent another separate and distinct "eternal life" that is obtained apart from faith!

 

[The Biblicist]

You want to ignore the fact that if a person is regenerated prior to faith then "logically" that person is in spiritual union with Christ while his sins remain unforgiven and he remains unrighteous. But that is impossible:

"For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor.6:14).

A person is not made righteous until he believes:

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Ro.10:10).

A person does not receive the righteousness which is of God until he believes so therefore "logically" he cannot be in spiritual union with Christ until he believes. After all, "what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?"

According to your mistaken ideas a person who has not had his sins forgiven and therefore remains defiled by those sins can be in a spiritual union with the holy Jesus Christ.

You also believe that "logically" an unrighteous person can be in spiritual union with the Righteous Lord Jesus.

When a verse does not fit your view you just add words to that verse until it fits your theology. Then when you cannot explain the fact that no one receives the gift of eternal life except by faith you just invent another separate and distinct "eternal life" that is obtained apart from faith!

What kind of person does Paul say is justified by faith in Romans 4:5? A righteous person or the "ungodly." So, logically what kind of person is justified? ANSWER: the ungodly person.

Since justification occurs as a consequence of faith rather than the cause of faith does not that mean LOGICALLY a person has faith previous to having remission of sins or imputed righteousness as justification IS remission of sins and imputed righteousness (Rom. 4:6-8)??????? So if that is logically true then what difference does it make if regeneration also logically precedes faith??????????? So you have the same problem with faith don't you as justification is merely IMPUTED righteousness and negatively not imputing sin!

However, regeneration does not deal with IMPUTED righteousness but with IMPARTED righteousness by a creative act of God whereby a NEW heart is given which is created in true holiness and righteousness (Ezek. 26:26; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; Tit. 3:10). Hence, logically regenerated righteousness is IMPARTED in the giving of a new heart and then "with the heart man believeth unto " IMPUTED righteousness.

Spiritual union with Christ obtains imparted righteousness LOGICALLY before faith in the gospel obtains legal uino with Christ and imputed righteousness.

Think about it! Do you know the difference between regeneration and justification???? Regeneration deals with your personal spiritual condition, but justification deals with your LEGAL position before God. Both provide union with Christ but not the same kind of union. Both provide eternal life but not the same eternal life.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What kind of person does Paul say is justified by faith in Romans 4:5? A righteous person or the "ungodly." So, logically what kind of person is justified? ANSWER: the ungodly person.

By the time the ungody person believes he is declared righteous. But you say that before a person believes he is in a spiritual union with Christ! But we know that that is impossible:

"For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor.6:14).

A person is not made righteous until he believes:

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Ro.10:10).

Since justification occurs as a consequence of faith rather than the cause of faith does not that mean LOGICALLY a person has faith previous to having remission of sins or imputed righteousness as justification IS remission of sins and imputed righteousness (Rom. 4:6-8)???????

Of course it does! that which causes something else is "logically" before that which is the result.

So you have the same problem with faith don't you as justification is merely IMPUTED righteousness and negatively not imputing sin!

Faith logically precedes God imputing righteousness to anyone.

However, regeneration does not deal with IMPUTED righteousness but with IMPARTED righteousness by a creative act of God whereby a NEW heart is given which is created in true holiness and righteousness (Ezek. 26:26; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; Tit. 3:10). Hence, logically regenerated righteousness is IMPARTED in the giving of a new heart and then "with the heart man believeth unto " IMPUTED righteousness.

Let us look at this verse which you quote:

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh" (Ez.36;26).

Paul tells us exactly how a person receives the Spirit and it is not received prior to faith, as you teach:

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).

You have the receiving of the Spirit prior to believing but Paul makes it plain that no one receives it until they believe!

 

[The Biblicist]

By the time the ungody person believes he is declared righteous. But you say that before a person believes he is in a spiritual union with Christ! But we know that that is impossible:

Now you are resorting to chronology instead of logical order???? Justification is the logical consequence of faith and thus follows faith logically. So your argument about logical order falls flat on its face. If righteous can follow faith logically it can follow regeneration logically.

A person is not made righteous until he believes:

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Ro.10:10).

Again, righteous follows faith logically. The righteous that follows faith is JUDICIAL righteousness by justification. However, the righteous that precedes faith by regeneration is not JUDICIAL but actual rightousness by giving of a "new" heart that is created in true righteousness and holiness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; etc.). Regenerate righteousness has to do with your own condition, your own person, by new birth but righteous by faith has NOTHING TO DO with your own person but it is the righteousness of Jesus Christ IMPUTED to your account legally. You are simply ignorant of righteousness by regeneration versus righteousness by justification. The former is due to spiritual union with your own person while the latter is due to legal union with the person of Christ. The former is imparted righteousness found in your inward man whereas the latter is imputed righteousness before God in heaven where you are representatively "seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

Paul tells us exactly how a person receives the Spirit and it is not received prior to faith, as you teach:

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).

You have the receiving of the Spirit prior to believing but Paul makes it plain that no one receives it until they believe!

Regeneration is inseparable from the effectual call through the gospel. It is the difference between Deuteronomy 29:4 and Ezekiel 36:26. The old heart cannot SEE or HEAR while the new heart both sees and hears.

The "hearing of faith" is God giving you a new heart that sees and hears and with that heart man believeth. Thus it is the hearing that produces faith (objective genitive). The gospel came to the elect "not in word only but in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance." It came as a creative word that produced a new heart with ears to hear and eyes to see and seeing is believing.