• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

This is Must Reading On the KJVO Position!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
John William Burgon actually supported revision of the Textus Receptus and the KJV (The Revision Revised, pp. 21, 107, 114, 224, 236, 269).

For example, John William Burgon wrote: "Once for all, we request it may be clearly understood that we do not, by any means, claim perfection for the Received Text. We entertain no extravagant notions on this subject. Again and again we shall have occasion to point out that the Textus Receptus needs correction" (p. 21, footnote 3). Burgon maintained that “in not a few particulars, the ‘Textus receptus’ does call for Revision” (p. 107). Burgon wrote: “That some corrections of the Text were necessary, we are well aware” (p. 224, footnote 1). Burgon himself asked: “who in his senses, --what sane man in Great Britain, --ever dreamed of regarding the ‘Received,‘ --aye, or any other known ‘Text,‘ --as a standard from which there shall be no appeal? Have I ever done so? Have I ever implied as much? If I have, show me where” (p. 385). Burgon himself asserted: “If, on the contrary, I have ever once appealed to the ‘Received Text,‘ and made it my standard, --why do you not prove the truth of your allegation by adducing in evidence that one particular instance?“ instead of bringing against me a charge which is utterly without foundation (p. 388). Burgon asked: “Who, pray, since the invention of printing was ever known to put forward any existing Text as ‘a final standard’?“ (p. 392). Burgon asserted: “So far am I from pinning my faith to it [the Textus Receptus], that I eagerly make my appeal from it to the threefold witness of Copies, Versions, Fathers, whenever I find its testimony challenged” (Ibid.). In 1864, Burgon maintained that “the accumulated evidence of the last two centuries has enabled us to correct it [the Textus Receptus] with confidence in hundreds of places” (Treatise on the Pastoral Office, p. 69).

After discussing the inspiration and infallibility of the Scriptures, Burgon asserted: “Our remarks apply in strictness only to the sacred autographs” (Treatise on the Pastoral Office, p. 64). Burgon added: “God has not seen fit to work a succession of miracles for the protection even of His Word” (p. 64). Burgon claimed: “To some, it may seem a matter of regret that a perpetual miracle has not guarded the ispissma verba of the Spirit; but the wiser will judge differently” (p. 77). Burgon observed: “It is obvious that a really ancient Codex of the Gospels must needs supply more valuable critical help in establishing the precise Text of Scripture then can possibly be rendered by any translation, however faithful; while Patristic citations are on the whole a less decisive authority, even than versions” (Last Twelve Verses, p. 19).

In his introduction to Burgon’s book, Edward Miller wrote: “In the Text left behind by Dean Burgon, about 150 corrections have been suggested by him in St. Matthew‘s Gospel alone“ (Traditional Text of the Holy Gospels, p. 5). Burgon and Miller advocated “the Traditional Text,“ not the Textus Receptus (p. 5). Burgon as edited by Miller asserted: “I am not defending the ‘Textus Receptus’” (p. 15). Burgon added: “That it is without authority to bind, nay, that it calls for skillful revision in every part, is freely admitted. I do not believe it to be absolutely identical with the true Traditional Text” (Ibid.). Burgon asserted: “Where any part of it conflicts with the fullest evidence attainable, there I believe that it calls for correction” (Ibid.). Edward Miller concluded that the Traditional Text advocated by Dean Burgon would differ “in many passages” from the Textus Receptus (p. 96). In the introduction to another of Burgon’s books, Edward Miller asserted: “The Traditional Text must be found, not in a mere transcript, but in a laborious revision of the Received Text” (Causes of the Corruption of the Traditional Text, p. 1).

Edward Miller maintained that Burgon thought that there were “additions to the Received Text” at Matthew 6:18, Matthew 25:13, and Matthew 27:35 (Burgon, Causes of the Corruptions of the Traditional Text, p. 171). Burgon as edited by Miller noted: “An instance where an error from an Itacism has crept into the Textus Receptus may be seen in St. Luke 16:25” (p. 60). Under the heading “Burgon and Miller’s system,” Edward Miller asserted that “The Textus Receptus, which was adopted in the revival of Greek learning, though it agrees substantially with our Canons, fails under the first, which is the virtual embodiment of them all; because some of its readings are condemned by the balance struck upon all the evidence which as been assembled under the unprecedented advantage afforded in this century” (Oxford Debate, p. xiii). Burgon wrote: “S. Luke’s history of the Temptation (4:8) contains five words which some ancient copyist must have inserted from remembering too well the parallel place in S. Matthew 4:10, and confounding it with the language of S. Matthew 16:23” (Treatise on the Pastoral, p. 76). Burgon asked: “See you not that the state of the text of the Bible has no more to do with the Inspiration of the Bible, then the stains on yonder windows have to do with the light of God’s sun?” (Inspiration and Interpretation, p. 119).

Marvin Vincent observed: “With Dean Burgon, he [Scrivener] stood for the position that all available authorities, and not the most ancient only, should be considered in the settlement of the text” (History of the Textual Criticism, p. 141). Vincent maintained that “John W. Burgon, Dean of Chichester, was the friend and coadjutor of Scrivener” (p. 142). Peter Ruckman asserted that “Burgon claimed the AV has several corrupt readings in it” (Ruckman’s Battlefield Notes, p. 100). John William Burgon referred to “what, in the A. V. is nothing worse than a palpable mistranslation” (Revision Revised, p. 72). Burgon suggested that “the inaccurate rendering” of two Greek words in the KJV at Matthew 3:10 and Luke 3:9 was “retained” in the Revised Version (p. 164). Burgon indicated that there are some places where the Revisionists remedy “an inaccuracy in the rendering of the A. V.“ (p. 220). Burgon wrote: “It is often urged on behalf of the Revisionists that over not a few dark places of S. Paul’s Epistles their labours have thrown important light. Let it not be supposed that we deny this. Many a Scriptural difficulty vanishes the instant a place is accurately translated: a far greater number, when the rendering is idiomatic” (pp. 216-217). Concerning Luke 5:2, Burgon as edited by Miller asserted: “The translators of the 1611, not understanding the incident, were content, as Tyndale, following the Vulgate, had been before them, to render [the Greek words]--’were washing their nets” (Traditional Text, p. 212). Burgon then maintained that the Revisers of 1881 retained “the incorrect translation” found in the 1611 KJV at this verse (Ibid.).
He would not be a KJVO person today in the sense those in it would be advocating the use of the term!
He p[probably would desire to see a completed translation off the so called majority text!
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"Humanistic Scholarship Onlyism" - An Old Sect.
This is a spurious charge. I have sat under Dr. Price's Hebrew tutelage, gone soul winning with him, sat in his Sunday School class, sat with him in church, eaten dinner with him. I assure you that Dr. James Price could not be further from humanism, but is a godly, good man, and a fundamental independent Baptist. Without even knowing the man, you have defamed him, thus disobeying many verses in the beloved King James Version.

it is nasty posts like yours that drive people away from King James Onlyism. By not being gracious in your Christianity, you defeat your own purpose.
 
Last edited:

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"Humanistic Scholarship Onlyism" - An Old Sect.
Actually your human reasoning concerning the KJV would be a scholarship onlyism view since it advocates blind trust in the scholarship of one exclusive group of Church of England priests/critics in 1611.

You have not demonstrated that the Scriptures teach a KJV-only view.

KJV-only advocates will disobey clear commands as translated in the KJV in order to try to defend their human KJV-only reasoning/teaching.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
This is a spurious charge. I have sat under Dr. Price's Hebrew tutelage, gone soul winning with him, sat in his Sunday School class, sat with him in church, eaten dinner with him. I assure you that Dr. James Price could not be further from humanism, but is a godly, good man, and a fundamental independent Baptist. Without even knowing the man, you have defamed him, thus disobeying many verses in the beloved King James Version.

it is nasty posts like yours that drive people away from King James Onlyism. By not being gracious in your Christianity, you defeat your own purpose.

There are few things that are as unseemly as affected and hypocritical religious superiority.
If you would come down your high hill for a moment, oh noble sir, please consider that:

A) The title said "King James Onlyism" - A New Sect. My reply was after the tenor of his title.
B) According to your thinking, I would answer you that the man has "defamed" many a man under whose tutelage I sat, gone soul winning with, sat in their Sunday School classes, sat with in church, and eaten dinner with, and of whom I can assure you that they could not be further from being sectist, but are godly, good men, and fundamental independent Baptists. Without knowing them, he has defamed them, thus disobeying whatever set of autographs he claims to believe in.
C) Nothing in my words singled out the man. It was as generic a post as could have been. I described general camps.
D) It is nasty, self-righteous, hypocritical, reflexively man-elevating posts like yours that drive people away from Humanisitc Scholarship Onlyism. "By not being gracious in your Christianity, you defeat your own purpose."
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Actually your human reasoning concerning the KJV would be a scholarship onlyism view since it advocates blind trust in the scholarship of one exclusive group of Church of England priests/critics in 1611.

You have not demonstrated that the Scriptures teach a KJV-only view.

KJV-only advocates will disobey clear commands as translated in the KJV in order to try to defend their human KJV-only reasoning/teaching.

You must be a modern-day prophet because you know my thinking and reasoning without even hearing it.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Without knowing them, he has defamed them, ."
You failed to prove your accusation to be true. You do not show that any believers were defamed by someone stating the truth about human, non-scriptural KJV-only reasoning/teaching.

Believers reading the KJV as what it actually is, and teaching from the KJV as what it actually is are not defamed in that book.

It is the making of unproven and even false claims for the KJV that is soundly and correctly exposed in that book. Are you suggesting that you oppose the stating of the truth?
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You must be a modern-day prophet because you know my thinking and reasoning without even hearing it.

I know the thinking and reasoning of KJV-only advocates from what they themselves state in their writings including in their posts.

I read your earlier posts that presented your KJV-only reasoning, and I have read over 150 books written by KJV-only authors. I have carefully studied KJV-only reasoning/teaching and have compared it to what the Scriptures teach.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
You failed to prove your accusation to be true. You do not show that any believers were defamed by someone stating the truth about human, non-scriptural KJV-only reasoning/teaching.

Believers reading the KJV as what it actually is, and teaching from the KJV as what it actually is are not defamed in that book.

It is the making of unproven and even false claims for the KJV that is soundly and correctly exposed in that book. Are you suggesting that you oppose the stating of the truth?

No, you have failed to read the introductory qualifier "According to your thinking":

B) According to your thinking, I would answer you that

I was simply applying the man's logic. But you would have caught that had you not been in a rush to judge me.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I was simply applying the man's logic. .

You do not soundly apply his logic. I have read his entire book. Perhaps you have not read his book or the portion of it at the link, or else you misunderstand it.

Instead of applying his logic, you jumped to wrong conclusions perhaps because of your illogical, non-scriptural KJV-only reasoning. His book did not at all advocate humanism. You provide no direct quotations where any supposed defaming of those you suggested was done. You alleged but did not prove what you alleged.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There are few things that are as unseemly as affected and hypocritical religious superiority.
You judge me contrary to the KJV: Judge not that ye be not judge.

I was absolutely sincere in what I said, felt no superiority in the slightest. What you read was outrage, not "unseemly...affected and hypocritical religious superiority."
If you would come down your high hill for a moment, oh noble sir, please consider that:

A) The title said "King James Onlyism" - A New Sect. My reply was after the tenor of his title.
B) According to your thinking, I would answer you that the man has "defamed" many a man under whose tutelage I sat, gone soul winning with, sat in their Sunday School classes, sat with in church, and eaten dinner with, and of whom I can assure you that they could not be further from being sectist, but are godly, good men, and fundamental independent Baptists. Without knowing them, he has defamed them, thus disobeying whatever set of autographs he claims to believe in.
Apparently you don't even know the meaning of the word "sect." A sect is simply a schismatic group of religionists. They may or may not be heretical. If your crowd is not schismatic, I don't know who is. They separate from anyone that does not believe exactly like they do about the KJV. However, they need not. I know some wonderful people who love the KJV as I do, and fellowship with them often, but they are not schismatic. Some of my students are KJVO, but they are not schismatic.

Again, it is a "new" sect. Virtually no one took the KJVO position among fundamentalists until Peter Ruckman came along with his first book in 1970.
C) Nothing in my words singled out the man. It was as generic a post as could have been. I described
Absolute baloney. You specifically answered a text that referenced Dr. Price's book.

general camps.
D) It is nasty, self-righteous, hypocritical, reflexively man-elevating posts like yours that drive people away from Humanisitc Scholarship Onlyism. "By not being gracious in your Christianity, you defeat your own purpose."
I see no need to even answer this.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
You judge me contrary to the KJV: Judge not that ye be not judge.

I was absolutely sincere in what I said, felt no superiority in the slightest. What you read was outrage, not "unseemly...affected and hypocritical religious superiority."

Apparently you don't even know the meaning of the word "sect." A sect is simply a schismatic group of religionists. They may or may not be heretical. If your crowd is not schismatic, I don't know who is. They separate from anyone that does not believe exactly like they do about the KJV. However, they need not. I know some wonderful people who love the KJV as I do, and fellowship with them often, but they are not schismatic. Some of my students are KJVO, but they are not schismatic.

Again, it is a "new" sect. Virtually no one took the KJVO position among fundamentalists until Peter Ruckman came along with his first book in 1970.
Absolute baloney. You specifically answered a text that referenced Dr. Price's book.


I see no need to even answer this.

If the Lord cannot show you the hypocrisy of your judgments, then neither can I.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If the Lord cannot show you the hypocrisy of your judgments, then neither can I.
Oh, that's rich. If I am a hypocrite (and I often am), the Lord is entirely capable of showing me that, and has many times.

Tell you what, I'm going to bow out of this thread before I say something I will regret. Have a nice life "Doc."
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Modern, human, non-scriptural KJV-only reasoning/teaching displays a great deal of hypocrisy and arrogance as KJV-only advocates in effect suggest that their subjective opinions are superior to clear scriptural truths.

According to the Scriptures, the wisdom from God above is without partiality while human KJV-only reasoning shows partiality to one exclusive group of biased Church of England priests/critics in 1611.

KJV-only advocates do not apply the same exact standards/measures to the process of the making of the KJV that they inconsistently and unjustly attempt to apply to the making of other English Bible translations. They do not apply the same measures/standards of doctrinal soundness to the Church of England makers of the KJV that they attempt to apply to other Bible translators.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Modern, human, non-scriptural KJV-only reasoning/teaching displays a great deal of hypocrisy and arrogance as KJV-only advocates in effect suggest that their subjective opinions are superior to clear scriptural truths.

According to the Scriptures, the wisdom from God above is without partiality while human KJV-only reasoning shows partiality to one exclusive group of biased Church of England priests/critics in 1611.

KJV-only advocates do not apply the same exact standards/measures to the process of the making of the KJV that they inconsistently and unjustly attempt to apply to the making of other English Bible translations. They do not apply the same measures/standards of doctrinal soundness to the Church of England makers of the KJV that they attempt to apply to other Bible translators.
We're still waiting for those quotes, prophet.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"Doc", eh? With the quotation marks. In your parting (and of course, humble, godly, dedicated, conservative, educated, etc. etc.) shot, you still can't help but belittle someone who isn't of your intellectual clan, can you? S-e-c-t-i-s-m.
Huh? I have a good friend we all call "Doc." Why are you offended? And quotation marks are often put around nicknames.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top