This made me sick!

[menageriekeeper]

You asked this:

How many other civilizations went from where we started to where we are in the record time we took?

I answered. Then I went back and answered the OP.

 

[Dale-c]

The goverment is to reprisent all people Christian, LDS, Hindu, etc.

No, that is NOT what government is supposed to do. They are ministers of God.
PLease read Romans 13.
Then perhaps read Psalm 2.

And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

No, that is NOT what government is supposed to do. They are ministers of God.
PLease read Romans 13.
Then perhaps read Psalm 2.

You are confusing ancient Israel with the U.S.A. This country isn't a theocracy, but a secular constitutional republic, a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. ALL the people.

 

[Dale-c]

Freedom of Religion means ANY religion. You cannot have it both ways and still have religious liberty.

No, it doesn't.
There is NO God given right to worship idols.
It is not the governments job to evangelize. It is not their job to force people to pay for churches etc.
BUt they are just as much subject to God as anyone else.

The Indiana constitution shows this very well:

TO THE END, that justice be established, public order maintained, and liberty perpetuated; WE, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to ALMIGHTY GOD (sic) for the free exercise of the right to choose our own form of government, do ordain this Constitution.

Notice that the all caps "ALMIGHTY GOD is exactly as it is in the INdiana preamble.

Then we see:

Section 2. Right to worship

Section 2. All people shall be secured in the natural right to worship ALMIGHTY GOD, according to the dictates of their own consciences.

There is a right to worship ALMIGHTY GOD, not allah or whatever.

If a person chooses to worship a pagan god privately, there is no civil punishment since it is not the states duty, but the state DOES have a duty to acknowledge the God of the Bible and when it does not, it is in line for God's judgement.

 

[npetreley]

You asked this:

I answered. Then I went back and answered the OP.

That would make perfect sense if I said I wonder how many democracies (or constitutional republics), etc. Sorry, but I have no clue where you're coming from.

 

[Dale-c]

You are confusing ancient Israel with the U.S.A. This country isn't a theocracy, but a secular constitutional republic, a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. ALL the people.

No, I am NOT confusing the USA with ancient Isreal.

13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

No, it doesn't.
There is NO God given right to worship idols.

Sorry, but yes there is. God gives us free will to choose.

the state DOES have a duty to acknowledge the God of the Bible and when it does not, it is in line for God's judgement.

Where in the Constitution of the United States does it prescribe such a duty? Please cite the exact Article. It may be difficult, since the Constitution is a godless document.

 

[Dale-c]

That would make perfect sense if I said I wonder how many democracies (or constitutional republics), etc. Sorry, but I have no clue where you're coming from.

The thing is, it doesn't matter what our form of government is, governments role is the same.

No matter how it is administered, all government has the same commission from God which is best described in Romans 13.
And by the way, in case you are not aware, Romans is in the New Testament, not the old.

 

[Dale-c]

Sorry, but yes there is. God gives us free will to choose.

God gives a right to serve idols?
Care to give me scripture on that?

Where in the Constitution of the United States does it prescribe such a duty? Please cite the exact Article. It may be difficult, since the Constitution is a godless document.

Yes, the US constitution is a pretty Godless document.
Most states got it right, but not the US.
But that doesn't matter.
The Bible supersedes the US Constitution.

 

[Dale-c]

Originally Posted by Dale-c
No, it doesn't.
There is NO God given right to worship idols.

Sorry, but yes there is. God gives us free will to choose.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,

Doesn't look like much of a right to me, does it?

 

[npetreley]

The thing is, it doesn't matter what our form of government is, governments role is the same.

No matter how it is administered, all government has the same commission from God which is best described in Romans 13.
And by the way, in case you are not aware, Romans is in the New Testament, not the old.

I think I agree. I guess I don't see how being a constitutional republic plays into our longevity one way or another. If God wants us to self-destruct because we turn from Him, then we'll self-destruct. Being a constitutional republic won't give us extra time or cut our longevity short.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

God gives a right to serve idols?
Care to give me scripture on that?

You are free to do so if you so desire. Go do it now if you like. There is no law against it.


Yes, the US constitution is a pretty Godless document.
Most states got it right, but not the US.
But that doesn't matter.
The Bible supersedes the US Constitution.

Not so far as the government goes, which is the point of the discussion. Of course, God's will is ultimately done, but that doesn't mean the civil government must follow any religious dictates. Try stoning an unruly son to death at the gates to the city and then use the Bible as your legal defense. I think you'd be found guilty of murder regardless.

 

[Dale-c]

Not so far as the government goes, which is the point of the discussion.

I am not sure what that is referring to?

 

[D28guy]

Magnetic Poles,

"I don't. We are under a secular constitution granting no special status for any religion; not under any religious rule."

Who said anything about that? We are not giving special status. Anyone can worship however they please in this country. Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, etc etc.

But this country was founded on a bedrock that includes an acknowledgment of the christian God as the source of our ultimate national blessing and protection.

That is undeniable fact.

When we turn to God good things happen. When we turn from God to false Gods bad things happen.

That as well is undeniable fact, and multiculturalism will not change it.

Mike

 

[Magnetic Poles]

But this country was founded on a bedrock that includes an acknowledgment of the christian God as the source of our ultimate national blessing and protection.

That is undeniable fact.

Mike, that is just not true at all, and calling it "undeniable fact" doesn't make it so. The country was founded on the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence, which is not the foundation of law, references "the laws of nature, and nature's God", not "the Christian God". You are misinformed.

 

[D28guy]

Blackbird,

"I'm in agreement with this, too!!! I've preached this 20 years ago---when we allow prayers in schools and in government meetings---OK--we're gonna pray---but to whos god??

The Christian God, the way its been for 200 years now. Not the Muslim God or the Krishna God or the Hindu god of any other false God.

The TRUE one.

People can live here and be any of those other religions and they will not be persecuted. They can worship as they please. But if they start with this insanity that they are being supposedly *persecuted* because we dont acknowledge their understanding of God in our governmental meetings or public schools, etc, then we simply tell them...

"Sorry, but thats because this country is founded on the acknowledgment of the CHRISTIAN understanding of God. You will just have to put up with that if you want to live here. We will never stop you from worshipping as you please at home or in your place of worship, but YOU will have to put up with this arrangement if you want to live here."



Mike

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Blackbird,



The Christian God, the way its been for 200 years now. Not the Muslim God or the Krishna God or the Hindu god of any other false God.

The TRUE one.

People can live here and be any of those other religions and they will not be persecuted. They can worship as they please. But if they start with this insanity that they are being supposedly *persecuted* because we dont acknowledge their understanding of God in our governmental meetings or public schools, etc, then we simply tell them...

"Sorry, but thats because this country is founded on the acknowledgment of the CHRISTIAN understanding of God. You will just have to put up with that if you want to live here. We will never stop you from worshipping as you please at home or in your place of worship, but YOU will have to put up with this arrangement if you want to live here."



Mike

Which is a direct establishment of religion (Christianity) in violation of the First Amendment. To do what you say, you'd need to repeal the First Amendment. Also, I have a news flash for you...ALL religions think theirs is the "TRUE" God.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

How about THIS solution that has worked well for over 200 years (paraphrasing Mike's comment above):

People can live here and be any religion and they will not be persecuted. They can worship as they please. But if they start with this insanity that they are being supposedly *persecuted* because we dont acknowledge their understanding of God in our governmental meetings or public schools, etc, then we simply tell them we have no official religion in America. We protect the freedom of all by separating the state from religion.

 

[D28guy]

Magnetic Poles,

"Mike, that is just not true at all, and calling it "undeniable fact" doesn't make it so. The country was founded on the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence, which is not the foundation of law, references "the laws of nature, and nature's God", not "the Christian God". You are misinformed."

YOU are misinformed. The founding fathers of this country were primarily either christian or christian sympathetic deists.

They had no intention of having a country of forced christianity. I have never claimed that. But the mindset that existed in these men regarding God was clearly the Christian God.

If not the bible would not have been given such a prominent role...presidents taking their oath with the hand on it, etc...in the political ceremonies of our governmental meetings.

If not they would not have allowed for CHRISTIAN PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE to be CHILSED IN STONE for all time all over these buildings in our capital at Washington DC.

And its been proven that the basis of so much of our great documents...the constitition and bill of rights...comes straight from principles found in the scriptures of God.

Not scripture quotations...but the principle ideas have been shown to be drawn from the wisdom and morality found in the Bible.

Please become better informned.

Mike

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Magnetic Poles,



YOU are misinformed. The founding fathers of this country were primarily either christian or christian sympathetic deists.

They had no intention of having a country of forced christianity. I have never claimed that. But the mindset that existed in these men regarding God was clearly the Christian God.

If not the bible would not have been given such a prominent role...presidents taking their oath with the hand on it, etc...in the political ceremonies of our governmental meetings.

If not they would not have allowed for CHRISTIAN PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE to be CHILSED IN STONE for all time all over these buildings in our capital at Washington DC.

And its been proven that the basis of so much of our great documents...the constitition and bill of rights...comes straight from principles found in the scriptures of God.

Not scripture quotations...but the principle ideas have been shown to be drawn from the wisdom and morality found in the Bible.

Please become better informned.

Mike

Mike, now you are just embarrasing yourself. If you can find any passages "CHILSED (SIC) IN STONE" it makes no difference...buildings are not the laws. Please put down your David Barton books long enough to read

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

You will see that the Supreme Court has 18 great lawgivers depicted on the friezes. On the south wall you will find Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, and Octavian; while on the north wall, Justinian, Mohammed, Charlemagne, King John, Louis IX, Hugo Grotius, Sir William Blackston, John Marshall, and Napoleon. According to your logic then, the US is based on Moses, Mohammed, and Confucius among others.

The buildings in DC were not even there at the nation's founding.

There is also no requirement to have a President take the oath of office on any book. The phrase "So help me God" is also not part of the oath prescribed in the Constitution, nor is it required. So please, before you type, become better informed.