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This probably isn't going to be popular on this forum, but...

Rufus_1611

New Member
Pastor Larry said:
Just to be precise, she hasn't lost everything. there is no doubt that losing a son is bad. I am not minimizing that. But she has not lost everything. Let's not go overboard here.
One son to death, one husband to divorce, her health, and her money. She still has most of her children, so you are right she hasn't lost everything.

How is this relevant? She attacked people personally. She used obscenities. She lied. None of which is justified in any case. Even if one agrees with her cause, some of the methods she used were wrong.
So be it. She took on an issue you don't support. Your boys won, she lost and she's quitting. Kicking her while she's down in this thread doesn't seem very sporting.

How do you know others haven't done this?

For my part, I have not questioned her salvation. However, since you bring it up, what evidence is there that she is saved? I have seen none.
She is a Roman Catholic so I would personally doubt that she is saved, however her salvation is not necessary for us to exhibit a little charity.

I think she did embarrass them. I am embarrassed that our country cannot have a civilized discussion about issues.

So the freedom of a country from a tyrannical murderous dictator is nothing? That's a strange view for a Christian to hold.
I'm sure you're aware of the complexity of this issue without needing to pull out the "you have strange views for a Christian" card.
 
F

Filmproducer

Guest
Rufus_1611 said:
One son to death, one husband to divorce, her health, and her money. She still has most of her children, so you are right she hasn't lost everything.

So be it. She took on an issue you don't support. Your boys won, she lost and she's quitting. Kicking her while she's down in this thread doesn't seem very sporting.



She is a Roman Catholic so I would personally doubt that she is saved, however her salvation is not necessary for us to exhibit a little charity.



I'm sure you're aware of the complexity of this issue without needing to pull out the "you have strange views for a Christian" card.

Rufus, we probably don't agree on a lot of political issues, but on this I know we agree. Thank you for your charitable Christian behavior towards Sheehan. Regardless of her political views it is obvious she is broken-hearted and in need of comfort and good godly prayers being sent up on her behalf.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
She did not only lose her son, she lost her husband of over 20 years, friends, family, and a myriad of other possessions. She pretty much did lose everything. A lot more than many other people. Things she will never be able to get back, not just her son.
If she lost those things due to this, it was due to choices she made. You can't complain when you have to lie in the bed you made. But the bottom line is that only in a very materialistic, self-centered culture, is that "losing everything." I don't want to be to blunt about it, but let's face it: Christianity is a lifestyle of losing everything. So I am not greatly concerned when people lose everything.

Who are you or anyone else to judge her salvation? That is between her and God.
Actually I haven't judged her. But we are commanded to judge people's salvation for different purposes like church membership etc. All I pointed out was that I have seen no evidence of salvation, and the biblical presumption is that people are not saved since that is how they are born.

We have no right to belittle her for her pain and grief and question her salvation.
I haven't done that and don't recommend it.

Sadam was not the only tyrannical murderous dictator at the time, nor was he the worse by far.
But he was one, and life is precious. So I don't think lives lost in pursuit of freedom and life are wasted. Perhaps we disagree on that. I think God doesn't value life based on the country in which someone lives. Therefore, live in Iraq is just as important as life in America. And I am not even saying we should have to war. I am simply saying that their lives weren't wasted.

I could list others we should have something about first, not to mention the fact that our main objective should have been OBL given he actually attacked our country and caused great devastation and loss of lives.
We didn't quit chasing OBL and the fact that "other people are mean too" is hardly a justification. Again, I am not saying we should or shouldn't have gone to war. I am addressing only the fact that the lives weren't wasted. To say that they were is to spit on the graves.

So don't give me that baloney about my christian values and viewpoints, of which you really have no clue.
I commentd only on what you said. I would think that your words here would give us a clue about your Christian values and viewpoints. Surely you are not speaking for someone else are you? I may not have much of a clue, but I do have your words that you have spoken. Assuming that they are your words, they give us insight into your Christian values and viewpoints.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
One son to death, one husband to divorce, her health, and her money. She still has most of her children, so you are right she hasn't lost everything.
Some of those losses are also due to her own choices. As I pointed out, when you choose to commit yourself to something, you invite certain consequences.

So be it. She took on an issue you don't support. Your boys won, she lost and she's quitting. Kicking her while she's down in this thread doesn't seem very sporting.
My boys won?? Who are my boys? I don't have a dog in this fight. I originally supported the war. In retrospect, as I have said before, we probably should not have gone to war. I do support the troops and I believe we ought to finish what we started. furthermore, I am not kicking her while she is down.

She is a Roman Catholic so I would personally doubt that she is saved, however her salvation is not necessary for us to exhibit a little charity.
I didn't know she was RC, and I have demonstrated no lack of charity. I have respect for people who make commitments and own the costs of them. I was talking about that in church this past Sunday. But one can't complain about the costs if you are truly making a commitment to something.

I'm sure you're aware of the complexity of this issue without needing to pull out the "you have strange views for a Christian" card.
I think it is very complex, which is why I reject the very simplistic explanations and arguments that Sheehan and others have made. My only point was about the comment about wasted lives. Regardless of what you think about the WMDs, intelligence, the Bush adminstration, the anti-war movement, etc, the fact that a nation was freed from a murderous dictator is something good. I don't see how that can be considered a loss of life. The comment implied that protecting life in Iraq was a waste of life. I disagree and I think that is a strange view for a Christian to hold. There was no attack in that at all. I simply said I thought it was strange. (BTW, I think many things are strange ... ).
 

carpro

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Filmproducer said:
... she lost her husband of over 20 years, friends, family, and a myriad of other possessions. She pretty much did lose everything.

All of which was her fault.
 
F

Filmproducer

Guest
Pastor Larry said:
I commentd only on what you said. I would think that your words here would give us a clue about your Christian values and viewpoints. Surely you are not speaking for someone else are you? I may not have much of a clue, but I do have your words that you have spoken. Assuming that they are your words, they give us insight into your Christian values and viewpoints.

What do my views concerning the Iraq war have to do with my Christian values and viewpoints? I never supported the war in Iraq, and yes I do believe it was a waste of American lives. Does that mean I do not support the troops? Of course not. I do, but I will remain vocal about my objection to the Iraq war. It has nothing to do with my Christianity. Besides, I don't see any passages in the Bible where Christians are commanded to "free" nations of their dictators. Let's not forget the fact that as a nation we supported dictators in the past if they were of the "right" political persuasion, just as we supported terrorism to promote the "correct" political ideologies.
 

Rufus_1611

New Member
Filmproducer said:
What do my views concerning the Iraq war have to do with my Christian values and viewpoints? I never supported the war in Iraq, and yes I do believe it was a waste of American lives. Does that mean I do not support the troops? Of course not. I do, but I will remain vocal about my objection to the Iraq war. It has nothing to do with my Christianity. Besides, I don't see any passages in the Bible where Christians are commanded to "free" nations of their dictators. Let's not forget the fact that as a nation we supported dictators in the past if they were of the "right" political persuasion, just as we supported terrorism to promote the "correct" political ideologies.
...and just as we supported this dictator.
 

Mexdeaf

New Member
In retrospect I probably should not have posted the comment about not letting the door hit her in the back, etc.

But I stand by my words- she made choices and she is paying the price. No one forced her to do what she did any more than her son was forced to go to Iraq.

You may not know this, but as a result of this war, there has been at least one Baptist church planted in Bagdad pastored by an Iraqui national and several Iraquis have accepted Christ.

Freedom is not free.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
What do my views concerning the Iraq war have to do with my Christian values and viewpoints?
I believe our Christianity affects everything. There should be nothing untouched by our the life of Christ in us. Here was my point:

1. You said that you tended to agree that the soldiers "died for nothing."
2. I pointed out that they died to free a nation from a tyranical dictator that had killed multiplied (and unknown) thousands of innocent people.

I believe that when people die in the defense of life, their lives were not wasted. I think Christianity (yea, even humanity) means that life is inherently precious, and dying to preserve it is not a waste. I don't see how a Christian can view the loss of life under the tyranny of Hussein as acceptable.

It has nothing to do with my Christianity.
I don't think your objection to the war has anything to do with your Christianity. Christians can certainly fall on both sides of this complex and difficult issue. My point was direct at your comment about wasted lives.

Besides, I don't see any passages in the Bible where Christians are commanded to "free" nations of their dictators.
Me either. But I didn't think that was the debate.

I think the Christian position is to be consistently pro-life. It is not just about the unborn in America. It is about people elsewhere as well. I don't think people who die to defend life are wasted, and I don't see how that view is compatible with the value that God places on life.
 

Rufus_1611

New Member
Mexdeaf said:
In retrospect I probably should not have posted the comment about not letting the door hit her in the back, etc.
Your comments are appreciated.

But I stand by my words- she made choices and she is paying the price. No one forced her to do what she did any more than her son was forced to go to Iraq.

You may not know this, but as a result of this war, there has been at least one Baptist church planted in Bagdad pastored by an Iraqui national and several Iraquis have accepted Christ.

There were 1.5 million Christians in Iraq prior to the war. 500,000 remain as the others have fled and the only location of relative security is now in the Kurdish north. Praise God for the Baptist church in Baghdad but let's not get carried away in thinking that the Iraqi war has been good for Iraqi Christians.

Freedom is not free.
How much does it cost and where do I sign?
 

Petra-O IX

Active Member
Yep! Cindy Sheehan has had more than her share of 15 minutes of fame but now it's time to forgive and forget unless there are some that would rather keep kicking a person when they are down and out.
Mark 11: 25 and 26

25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
 

Rufus_1611

New Member
Pastor Larry said:
How is this relevant? She attacked people personally. She used obscenities. She lied. None of which is justified in any case. Even if one agrees with her cause, some of the methods she used were wrong.
It would appear Mrs. Sheehan agrees with you...

"I don't think calling names is effective, it's not my style anymore. It used to be but it's not anymore. I'm trying to mature my activism, and mature my rhetoric to still be confrontational but not calling names. I was very, very angry back in those days." - Cindy Sheehan (Source: Cindy Sheehan On The Hot Seat - Video)​
 

carpro

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Rufus_1611 said:
How much does it cost and where do I sign?

It's a blood debt. Always has been. Always will be. Our signature means nothing and money cannot buy it.
 
F

Filmproducer

Guest
Pastor Larry said:
I believe our Christianity affects everything. There should be nothing untouched by our the life of Christ in us. Here was my point:

1. You said that you tended to agree that the soldiers "died for nothing."
2. I pointed out that they died to free a nation from a tyranical dictator that had killed multiplied (and unknown) thousands of innocent people.

I agree that Christianity affects everything, but still have disagree with your point concerning American soldiers. I understand where you are coming from and I respect your view, but I still feel that these Americans died in a needless war. That does not effect the impact of their lives on others including Iraqui's but they still should have not died in this unjust war. In that respect, and only that one, I believed they died for nothing.
 

Rufus_1611

New Member
carpro said:
It's a blood debt. Always has been. Always will be. Our signature means nothing and money cannot buy it.

How much blood will need to be spilled so that the citizens of the United States can be free again?
 
F

Filmproducer

Guest
Rufus_1611 said:
It would appear Mrs. Sheehan agrees with you...

"I don't think calling names is effective, it's not my style anymore. It used to be but it's not anymore. I'm trying to mature my activism, and mature my rhetoric to still be confrontational but not calling names. I was very, very angry back in those days." - Cindy Sheehan (Source: Cindy Sheehan On The Hot Seat - Video)​

I in no way agree with the tactics Sheehan used, but I kind of understand them. Whenever I saw her, I saw through the rhetoric to the immense amount of pain she was suffering. Having dealt with grief in some very personal ways and being on the brink of death at one point myself, I kind of understand her anger and reactionary response. People do a lot of things they normally would not in the wake of grief and anger. Again, I am not saying her tactics are right.
 

Mexdeaf

New Member
Rufus_1611 said:
How much blood will need to be spilled so that the citizens of the United States can be free again?

Wrong question...

The question should be 'how much blood will need to be shed so we can STAY free?'
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
I still feel that these Americans died in a needless war. That does not effect the impact of their lives on others including Iraqui's but they still should have not died in this unjust war. In that respect, and only that one, I believed they died for nothing.
These two statements seem contradictory. I have no problem saying they died in a needless war. I do have a problem saying they died for nothing.
 
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