SavedbyHISGrace
New Member
I agree with you brother. All I am saying is a person that is not studied and grounded properly could be confused by something like this.
Max </font>[/QUOTE]Sure
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Those who are Christians but who don't believe in the TRINTY
Max </font>[/QUOTE]Sure
OK, here's something more serious I contributed to a few years back:
http://www.ldolphin.org/Names.html
The stuff you are looking for in terms of Bible references starts about half way down. I think it should help a lot.
http://www.ldolphin.org/Names.html
The stuff you are looking for in terms of Bible references starts about half way down. I think it should help a lot.
SavedbyHISGrace
New Member
Thanks for the link Helen, its very good!
FundamentalDan
New Member
Whether salvation is based on theology (no matter what theology it is) is a ridiculous argument. Of course it is based on theology. That theology is revealed unto the human heart by the Holy Spirit. They may not know the theological terms, but they cannot be saved without knowing the truth about Christ, his death, resurrection, and, yes, His deity.
I agree that you cannot be saved unless you believe in the Trinity. That is Bible and a historical Christian position ever since the days of the apostles.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
My perspective is that we are saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ through the grace of God. Well, who is this God? We can only distinguish between the one true God and false gods by their characteristics and by how they interact with us. Saying that we believe in a god who doesn't have the characteristics of the one true God is like putting our faith in Baal or Allah, a false god.
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
StraightAndNarrow I thought you believed that you are saved by grace AND works that is what you said in the argument about losing ones salvation. So which is it ?
No one is doubting that one believes that Jesus is God when they accept Chirst. But like you many are taught false doctrine after they get saved and they beleive it no matter what the Bible has to say. Even if that truth is foundational to how we were saved in the first place.
YOU are a great example of that in the mere fact you believe you can lose your salvation.
No one is doubting that one believes that Jesus is God when they accept Chirst. But like you many are taught false doctrine after they get saved and they beleive it no matter what the Bible has to say. Even if that truth is foundational to how we were saved in the first place.
YOU are a great example of that in the mere fact you believe you can lose your salvation.
Marcia
Active Member
I'm not clear on the issue here of the 2 men. Is it that they are saying they believe the 3 persons of the Godhead are not the same Person? Because that is correct. God the Father, God the Son and God the HS are one but they not the same person.
But if they are saying that God the Father, Jesus, and the HS are all separate, then that is polytheism.
Or if they are saying outright they reject the Trinity, then either they have the wrong understanding of it or they are believing wrong about the nature of God.
What church do these men belong to? Their views sound strange.
But if they are saying that God the Father, Jesus, and the HS are all separate, then that is polytheism.
Or if they are saying outright they reject the Trinity, then either they have the wrong understanding of it or they are believing wrong about the nature of God.
What church do these men belong to? Their views sound strange.
At the time each of us is saved, we each have many erroneous ideas about God, life, sin, and just about every other theological thing it is possible to make mistakes about! The Holy Spirit then takes each of us and gently, but firmly, leads us into more and more truth, correcting doctrine, actions, thoughts, words, and everything else as He conforms us to the image of Christ.
So a person can be saved without believing in or understanding the Trinity. Intellectual understanding is not necessary for salvation.
However, if after some time, the person is still involved with badly erroneous doctrine, such as REFUSING to acknowledge the Trinity, then perhaps he or she was not saved to begin with...? I remember Satan can masquerade as an angel of light, and pagans can masquerade as Christians, even up to leadership positions in the church.
That is why each of us MUST know the Bible well ourselves, MUST have a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ, and must constantly pray for wisdom, which the Lord will always supply upon request. Otherwise we are so easily deceived.
One of the reasons Jesus told us to make disciples and teach them all the things He commanded is so that new believers will not fall into error and then have to take that torturous road back to truth.
But we are all in a great deal of error at first. However it should not take too long for the work of the Holy Spirit to become apparent in a believer's life. This would include an increasing understand and acceptance of biblical doctrines such as the Trinity.
So a person can be saved without believing in or understanding the Trinity. Intellectual understanding is not necessary for salvation.
However, if after some time, the person is still involved with badly erroneous doctrine, such as REFUSING to acknowledge the Trinity, then perhaps he or she was not saved to begin with...? I remember Satan can masquerade as an angel of light, and pagans can masquerade as Christians, even up to leadership positions in the church.
That is why each of us MUST know the Bible well ourselves, MUST have a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ, and must constantly pray for wisdom, which the Lord will always supply upon request. Otherwise we are so easily deceived.
One of the reasons Jesus told us to make disciples and teach them all the things He commanded is so that new believers will not fall into error and then have to take that torturous road back to truth.
But we are all in a great deal of error at first. However it should not take too long for the work of the Holy Spirit to become apparent in a believer's life. This would include an increasing understand and acceptance of biblical doctrines such as the Trinity.
SavedbyHISGrace
New Member
Hi Marcia
Reading your own post here shows that you own view seems confused. On the one hand you correctly say that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not the same Person, which would make the Godhead Unipersonal, and is against what Scripture teaches. Then you say: "But if they are saying that God the Father, Jesus, and the HS are all separate, then that is polytheism" This is not right, if by separate is meant that their "Personalities" are distinct, which is what the Trinity is about. But, if the separation is that each is a "God" in their own right, then this is Polytheism. The Persons in the Godhead are indeed "separate", but NOT to the extent where they become Three God's. But their Unity is One, in that each of the Three are fully God.
The best Scripture for this is 1 John 5:7, which enemies of this great doctrine of the Holy Trinity, have removed from many of the versions. I am fully convinced, based on the grammatical construction of the entire passage, that this verse is the work of the Apostle John.
SavedbyHISGrace
New Member
I agree that you cannot be saved unless you believe in the Trinity. That is Bible and a historical Christian position ever since the days of the apostles. </font>[/QUOTE]I disagree here. You are making belief in the Trinity a prerequsite of becoming a born-again Christian. Not so. Accepting that Jesus Christ is the Saviour, and His Lordship, are indeed prerequsites of becoming a believer. It is after this time, when we grow in the faith, that the Holy Spirit teaches us the other important doctrines, when and where we can bear them.
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
StraightAndNarrow I thought you believed that you are saved by grace AND works that is what you said in the argument about losing ones salvation. So which is it ?
No one is doubting that one believes that Jesus is God when they accept Chirst. But like you many are taught false doctrine after they get saved and they beleive it no matter what the Bible has to say. Even if that truth is foundational to how we were saved in the first place.
YOU are a great example of that in the mere fact you believe you can lose your salvation.
No one is doubting that one believes that Jesus is God when they accept Chirst. But like you many are taught false doctrine after they get saved and they beleive it no matter what the Bible has to say. Even if that truth is foundational to how we were saved in the first place.
YOU are a great example of that in the mere fact you believe you can lose your salvation.
I'm a little puzzled by your statement here.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are NOT one in the SAME. They ARE different entities.
Let me explain: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are THREE Distinct PERSONS in ONE ESSENCE (Divinity).
So, the THREE PERSONS are different entities and they are NOT ONE AND THE SAME (PERSON) though they are ONE ESSENCE (GOD)!
Rufus
I am confused. Orthodox Christianity is, "One God in Three persons."
Without the Son being who and or what He is, there can be no salvation. Denying the Son, one can lead others to Christ and still face damnation. Their ability to pass out tracks or share the Gospel is no different than a Mormon or a JW.
Without the Son being who and or what He is, there can be no salvation. Denying the Son, one can lead others to Christ and still face damnation. Their ability to pass out tracks or share the Gospel is no different than a Mormon or a JW.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
This is what I've said here.
"My perspective is that we are saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ through the grace of God."
The word "believing" is used here to signify an ongoing state (continuing to believe) which leads to a closer walk with Jesus and a changed life.
This is exactly the same as the use of the word "believeth" in John 3:16.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The word "believeth" is best translated "continues to believe."
believeth [4100] pisteuo 5723: Present Active Participle
Marcia
Active Member
Maybe I was not clear. What I am saying is that God the Father, God the Son, and God the HS are one in divine essence but are not the same Person. They are distinct (but not separate) Persons in the One Godhead. The Trinity is one What and 3 Who's -- God the Father, Jesus and the HS are distinct but not separatePersons in the one Godhead.
I am pretty positive that is an orthodox statement of the Trinity.
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
I will have to get back to you on that one.
I honestly believe they didn't believe they were one in the same person. They were all seperate from each other. Now that I think about it, if they do not think Jesus is God then who do they think he was? I will have to ask. I just honestly believe from knowing these guys personally they may at one time believed in the Trinity but through false teaching now have a different veiw.
I can only ask one of them since the other guy was a few years agao.
I honestly believe they didn't believe they were one in the same person. They were all seperate from each other. Now that I think about it, if they do not think Jesus is God then who do they think he was? I will have to ask. I just honestly believe from knowing these guys personally they may at one time believed in the Trinity but through false teaching now have a different veiw.
I can only ask one of them since the other guy was a few years agao.
SavedbyHISGrace
New Member
Maybe I was not clear. What I am saying is that God the Father, God the Son, and God the HS are one in divine essence but are not the same Person. They are distinct (but not separate) Persons in the One Godhead. The Trinity is one What and 3 Who's -- God the Father, Jesus and the HS are distinct but not separatePersons in the one Godhead.
I am pretty positive that is an orthodox statement of the Trinity. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Marcia, all sounds well, and then you end by saying: "God the Father, Jesus and the HS are distinct, but not separate Persons in the one Godhead"
If they are not separate, then in what way are they distinct? The separation of Persons, NOT essence, is essential to the truth that the Godhead is of separate Persons,Who are united as touching their "nature", in that they are equally God; and not a personal unity. If you do not allow for the separate Persons, then you cannot hold to a Tri Personal Godhead. You then open yourself up to Modalism.
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
OK I talked to my friend, and yes he doesn't think that Jesus is God ( which I wholeheartly disagree with )he believes he is " The Son Of God. " Basically he doesn't see how they can all be one.
He uses the same interpetation of scripture that those who believe you can LOSE your salvation do. Since he humanly has a hard time understanding how Jesus can be 100% God and 100 % man and he uses scripture to back it up, that is why.
This is why DEDUCTIVE Bible studying is very dangerous, YOU BECOME THE AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE AND NOT SCRIPTURE ITSELF.
YOU pull out scripture to fit your belief, not using scripture to prove scripture.
1)He said how can Jesus be at the RIGHT hand of the father if they are ONE ?
2)He said why did he say to God, Why has thou forsaken me ? So he forsook himslef ?
3)He said the Holy Spirit came later as a comforter.
4)Jesus refers to God as his father. So Jesus was talking to himself. and so many more
He would explain any verse I gave him away like; Jesus said when you have seen me you have seen the father. When ever Jesus said the words I AM he was saying he was God, the Jews knew exactly what he meant when he said that. Every knee shall bow and confess Jesus IS LORD. And other verses.
I have a good book I haven't read yet called
The forgotten Trinity by James R. White.
I'm going to read that. I still think some one can be saved and be mislead about the Trinity, just as someone can be saved and mislead about losing their salvation.
He uses the same interpetation of scripture that those who believe you can LOSE your salvation do. Since he humanly has a hard time understanding how Jesus can be 100% God and 100 % man and he uses scripture to back it up, that is why.
This is why DEDUCTIVE Bible studying is very dangerous, YOU BECOME THE AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE AND NOT SCRIPTURE ITSELF.
YOU pull out scripture to fit your belief, not using scripture to prove scripture.
1)He said how can Jesus be at the RIGHT hand of the father if they are ONE ?
2)He said why did he say to God, Why has thou forsaken me ? So he forsook himslef ?
3)He said the Holy Spirit came later as a comforter.
4)Jesus refers to God as his father. So Jesus was talking to himself. and so many more
He would explain any verse I gave him away like; Jesus said when you have seen me you have seen the father. When ever Jesus said the words I AM he was saying he was God, the Jews knew exactly what he meant when he said that. Every knee shall bow and confess Jesus IS LORD. And other verses.
I have a good book I haven't read yet called
The forgotten Trinity by James R. White.
I'm going to read that. I still think some one can be saved and be mislead about the Trinity, just as someone can be saved and mislead about losing their salvation.
SavedbyHISGrace
New Member
RightFromWrong, your assertion, "I still think some one can be saved and be mislead about the Trinity, just as someone can be saved and mislead about losing their salvation", is not possible. You cannot compare someones belief in being able to lose their salvation, to the Truth of the Holy Trinity. The one is only a secondary doctrine, while the other is essential to ones faith. If your friend does not accept the Deity of Jesus Christ, then he must also reject the Deith of the Holy Spirit, and therefore, the Holy Trinity. N
NE who professes to be a Christian, can be saved by not accepting the Deity of Jesus Christ. His view of Christ renders his "salvation" as useless, as he believes that he has been "saved" by a man, and not by God manifest in the flesh. Don't fall into error of compromise, by allowing something for a friend, when Biblically it is impossible.
NE who professes to be a Christian, can be saved by not accepting the Deity of Jesus Christ. His view of Christ renders his "salvation" as useless, as he believes that he has been "saved" by a man, and not by God manifest in the flesh. Don't fall into error of compromise, by allowing something for a friend, when Biblically it is impossible.
Marcia
Active Member
Distinct is NOT the same as separate. God the Father, Jesus, and the HS are distinct in that they are not the same Person. In other words, Jesus is not God the Father, God the Father is not the HS, the HS is not Jesus. That is modalism and a heresy.
To say they are separate denies the Trinity because it means there are 3 gods. The orthodox view is that they are distinct Persons (which denies modalism) but not separate (separate affirms polytheism). They are not separate because they are one God and have unity in the Godhead but yet they are distinct Persons.