Actually most Protestants - including this one - don't interpret it symbolically. As Luther, the original Protestant said, hoc est corpum meum , and, as Jesus said those words, albeit in Aramaic and not in Latin, that's good enough for me. Whilst we may not join with Catholics in believing necessarily in a physical Real Presence, most of us believe He is present spiritually in the bread and wine
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Those who believe that faith alone (Sola Fide) justifies our salvation:
- Thread starter jay29
- Start date
Actually most Protestants - including this one - don't interpret it symbolically. As Luther, the original Protestant said, hoc est corpum meum , and, as Jesus said those words, albeit in Aramaic and not in Latin, that's good enough for me. Whilst we may not join with Catholics in believing necessarily in a physical Real Presence, most of us believe He is present spiritually in the bread and wine </font>[/QUOTE]If it's not symbolic, you crucify Christ each time you partake of communion. This would contradict the Bible when It says that Christ died once for all sin.
Absolutely correct !
The tragedy is that those who repeat the crucifixion of Jesus again and again do not realize how much they are rebellious without believing what has been done already by God.
They do not understand what you said, because they were never born again actually in the Lord.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Actually that's a straw man. No one who believes in the real presence imagines they are re-crucifying Christ all over again every time communion is celebrated. Communion is our participation by God's grace in the one once-for-all sacrifice of Christ.
((BUZZZ)) Wrong...But thanks for playing
(Nice logical argument
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Then you obviously have a fundamentally faulty understanding of the real presence.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
More lies and distortion. (Sigh.)
christianyouth
New Member
Wow. Jay, those verses are very interesting and make some good points. Im going to have to watch to see where this discussion goes to.
"Faith Alone" does not appear in the bible at all, except in James. Faith alone is just peoples way of drawing a line in the definition of "Faith". When you attach YOUR interpretation of "Alone" to anything you cut short the COMPLETE meaning of the word.
Example:
Based on Luke 13:1-5 (Amp)
1JUST AT that time there [arrived] some people who informed Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2And He replied by saying to them, Do you think that these Galileans were greater sinners than all the other Galileans because they have suffered in this way?
3I tell you, No; but unless you repent (change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins), you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally.
4Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them--do you think that they were more guilty offenders (debtors) than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem?
5I tell you, No; but unless you repent ([c]change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins), you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally.
Based on this scripture Repentance "Alone" can save you from perishing.
Well now let's go somewhere else in the bible where I can attach my "Alone" doctrine to and read other passages into it.
Faith "Alone" does is not biblicale.
You do believe all the bible don't you Steaver?
Grace and Peace.
P.S. I wanted to be more detail
Taz brother, can you please be different and abandon that worn out line?
Tell me, does "Forgiveness Revoked" appear in the bible at all?
You see? It isn't worth repeating again and again.
God Bless!
ps, my wife gets angry with me too for what she calls "arguing" on line. I have to wait until she goes to bed.
Jay29 said
Consider these verses: What shall we say was gained by Abraham our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted a s a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.... Romans 4:1-5 Does this not clearly teach that Abraham was justified by faith apart from works? How much more clear could this be?
Actually most Protestants - including this one - don't interpret it symbolically. As Luther, the original Protestant said, hoc est corpum meum , and, as Jesus said those words, albeit in Aramaic and not in Latin, that's good enough for me. Whilst we may not join with Catholics in believing necessarily in a physical Real Presence, most of us believe He is present spiritually in the bread and wine </font>[/QUOTE]If it's not symbolic, you crucify Christ each time you partake of communion. This would contradict the Bible when It says that Christ died once for all sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Wrong! I don't see how that follows at all.
If it is symbolic then Christ lied when He said "This is My Body, this is My Blood" and "Unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood you have no part of me". It also contradicts the faith of the Church. Now, if you wish to be at odds with Christ and His Church, then that is up to you...but you are on perilous ground.
swaimj
In the book of James though chapter 2 verses 14-26 it explains that if we say we have faith but have not works then our faith cannot SAVE US.
verses
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
And even though it is true that Abraham was justified apart from his works, the Bible ALSO explains that we prove we have no faith if we dont have the works. So if we are saved by faith... what faith is it we have if we have no works? DEAD FAITH... which is worthless.
You have to read all of the scriptures that talk about this subject and then kind of weigh them equally, or give them equal weight, I might say.
Thats why the Bible can say on one hand that we are justified by faith without works then it turns around and says that we are justified by works and not just by faith.
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
If we go around claiming that we have faith but we actually dont DO anything, would you say that person has actual true, genuine, living faith?
Claudia
In the book of James though chapter 2 verses 14-26 it explains that if we say we have faith but have not works then our faith cannot SAVE US.
verses
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
And even though it is true that Abraham was justified apart from his works, the Bible ALSO explains that we prove we have no faith if we dont have the works. So if we are saved by faith... what faith is it we have if we have no works? DEAD FAITH... which is worthless.
You have to read all of the scriptures that talk about this subject and then kind of weigh them equally, or give them equal weight, I might say.
Thats why the Bible can say on one hand that we are justified by faith without works then it turns around and says that we are justified by works and not just by faith.
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
If we go around claiming that we have faith but we actually dont DO anything, would you say that person has actual true, genuine, living faith?
Claudia
Claudia,
Thank you for your response. A person who has true faith will produce righteous works. The works are a result of salvation and true faith. I believe that is what James is teaching (and I think it is what you are saying). However, it is a far different thing to say that a person is justified by a combination of faith and works. That cannot be because all of our righteousness is as filthy rags to God.
It is correct to say that faith results in justification and appropriate works. Faith is the cause that produces the two effects.
It is incorrect to say that faith and works are a combination that produces justification. Faith and works are not two causes that produce the one effect.
Thank you for your response. A person who has true faith will produce righteous works. The works are a result of salvation and true faith. I believe that is what James is teaching (and I think it is what you are saying). However, it is a far different thing to say that a person is justified by a combination of faith and works. That cannot be because all of our righteousness is as filthy rags to God.
It is correct to say that faith results in justification and appropriate works. Faith is the cause that produces the two effects.
It is incorrect to say that faith and works are a combination that produces justification. Faith and works are not two causes that produce the one effect.
swaimj
I understand what you are saying but the thing it comes down to is this, in my opinion...
...if you say or think you have faith but you dont have works, are you going to be saved?
And the Bible did say that "do you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone?" so it IS true then that you cannot be justified if you dont have the works.
Thats where the story comes in where the King forgives the man of his debt and then he is let out of prison then the man goes out and tries to strangle someone else who owes HIM a debt. So the King throws him back into prison.
I know that works are the fruit of faith but still if you dont produce the fruit you wont be saved. Right?
Claudia
I understand what you are saying but the thing it comes down to is this, in my opinion...
...if you say or think you have faith but you dont have works, are you going to be saved?
And the Bible did say that "do you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone?" so it IS true then that you cannot be justified if you dont have the works.
Thats where the story comes in where the King forgives the man of his debt and then he is let out of prison then the man goes out and tries to strangle someone else who owes HIM a debt. So the King throws him back into prison.
I know that works are the fruit of faith but still if you dont produce the fruit you wont be saved. Right?
Claudia
Claudia said
I think that you and I agree on the end product. A saved person will have works that evidence true faith. Do we agree on the process? Is it "faith + works = justification" or is it "faith = justification and works". I hold to the latter and I regard the former as a false way of salvation.
If I don't produce the work? God is the one who produces the work in me. I do not produce works that are pleasing to God for "in my flesh dwelleth no good thing". The works that are produced in me are produced as I live by faith, as the scripture says "my righteous one shall live by his faith".
I think that you and I agree on the end product. A saved person will have works that evidence true faith. Do we agree on the process? Is it "faith + works = justification" or is it "faith = justification and works". I hold to the latter and I regard the former as a false way of salvation.
Well I know that it is God who does the work in you, etc... of course. But what I was saying is that the lack of fruit is evidence of a lack of faith. And that if you dont have faith (of the genuine kind that produces works) then you cannot be saved. If we are saved by faith.
Phil:2:13: For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Gal:5:6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Faith that works by love, in other words true genuine faith that produces good fruit and who's motive to do the works is love to God and your fellow man.
How's that, swaimj ?
Or you could say instead of works, repentence...if you dont have repentence then ...
2Cor:7:10: For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Claudia
Phil:2:13: For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Gal:5:6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Faith that works by love, in other words true genuine faith that produces good fruit and who's motive to do the works is love to God and your fellow man.
How's that, swaimj ?
Or you could say instead of works, repentence...if you dont have repentence then ...
2Cor:7:10: For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Claudia
Gal:2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal:2:17: But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal:2:17: But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.