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Those who have never heard the gospel?
- Thread starter Jkdbuck76
- Start date
Tom Butler said:
Well, there has been plenty of food for thougt.
One question always arises: why send missionaries if those in ignorance go to heavan anyway? The answer is: The Great Commission.
I mean, here's another thought. Since God knows all and controls all, even when and where we are born, will those that He knows will choose Him be born in a time and place where they will get the gospel?
In other words, does God send all those whom He knows WON'T accept His plan of salvation to be born into a time and place where the gospel is not available?
I'm just asking. Don't kill me, people.
The answer is YES, with a big bubble BUT... He sends another to you to tell the gospel story that you might be saved. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. And unless I'm mistaken we are saved by grace through FAITH...Jkdbuck76 said:
No one just goes to heaven because God set the criteria for salvation and that is believing the gospel of the Lord Jesus for it is the powe unto salvation. And..."to as many as received HIM it was to them God gave the right to be His Children..."
We see this in a great many of missionaries stories, where to go out where none have been and the people there state they were so hungry for this truth and have been asking for a word, a sign, something and both walk into their villages. Then we also have the sad stories where the missionary gave their lives for the gospel that in their death we KNOW from those were saved due to that testimony the gospel was not sent out there in vain.
Hi Tom, all,
So this "gospel" of the OT was the "gospel of the kingdom" to come. It was known by all who scattered from Babel -- that is, went out to the whole world. Now we can say that they wouldn't maybe recognize the gospel as it changed in the many different hands. But likely God is able to teach it, right?
Anyway, that gospel brought men to JUSTIFICATION, they being given "the righteousness of God." Today, we assume that all must hear the gospel of grace, don't we? Not necessarily. There is the former gospel and it was effecacious in bringing people to God who had never heard of Christ. Plus, it will be the gospel of the tribulation again, Mt 24:14.
skypair
There is more than one gospel though, Tom. There are at least 2. One was given to Adam when God said told the woman that her seed would bruise Satan's head (destroy him and take recapture the earthly kingdom). This "gospel" was known by everyone in the world at Babel (Rom 10:18, right) -- which is why they inserted Osiris and Tammuz into the gospel. They were the likeness of "Mary and Jesus."
So this "gospel" of the OT was the "gospel of the kingdom" to come. It was known by all who scattered from Babel -- that is, went out to the whole world. Now we can say that they wouldn't maybe recognize the gospel as it changed in the many different hands. But likely God is able to teach it, right?
Anyway, that gospel brought men to JUSTIFICATION, they being given "the righteousness of God." Today, we assume that all must hear the gospel of grace, don't we? Not necessarily. There is the former gospel and it was effecacious in bringing people to God who had never heard of Christ. Plus, it will be the gospel of the tribulation again, Mt 24:14.
skypair
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So God wrote that whole Bible so you could be ignorant of His will?? C'mon, Jim. God says BELIEVE and be saved. You're not going to know you are saved by belonging to a Reform church -- by insinuating yourself into the company of servants. You need to "take the oath of allegiance." Then you will know.Jim1999 said:
And consider this -- if you don't know His will, then how can you say He wills your Calvinist theology and salvation??
skypair
There is only ONE gospel that saves, ONLY ONE. For it is the power of God unto salvation. It has always been the same gospel message Skypair. Their gospel just like ours is salvation via faith because of the way God has made for man to approach him.skypair said:
Please prove this statement!!
I did not say anything about not knowing the will of God. The question asked was How do we know WHY God chose to save some and not all? I don't know and neither do you.
If this is the way you develop your theology I am left in a quandry as to what you can believe.
I shall stick with what I have learned over the years, nd the consistent God of my scriptures. One gospel, one Lord, one faith. The saints of the Old looked forward to the cross as early as Job, whilst we look back to the cross. Jesus paid the price. Jesus did it all.
Cheers,
Jim
If this is the way you develop your theology I am left in a quandry as to what you can believe.
I shall stick with what I have learned over the years, nd the consistent God of my scriptures. One gospel, one Lord, one faith. The saints of the Old looked forward to the cross as early as Job, whilst we look back to the cross. Jesus paid the price. Jesus did it all.
Cheers,
Jim
Which one? Jesus hadn't been born in the OT, had He? How do you have a gospel of Christ without Christ??Allan said:
And exactly how did the OT saints think Messiah would manifest Himself, Allan?? As Sacrifice or King? As King right? As in "gospel of the kingdom." In fact, John the Baptist, Jesus, 12 disciples, and 70 disciples ALL went out teaching this gospel BEFORE THE KING WAS REJECTED saying "the kingdom is at hand!"
How do we know He revealed Himself? As Sacrifice, right? As in "gospel of grace/Christ." He has NOT come as earthly King to us, has He? We don't believe that, do we? (well, except Catholics and Reformers who think they are living in His kingdom come)
Here's why -- the "weeks of Daniel" have been suspended, postponed. We're in a different revelation of God -- a different dispensation. Without considering the eras, there is no understanding the truth.
skypair
SURE IS DO! YOu just heard me say that R.C. Sproul and another say that John MacArthur don't know why either. Good on ya! You're following men down their blind alley!Jim1999 said:
Jim, He chose those who would believe on Christ.
Actually, I didn't develop it -- God did. Read my latest post above -- God first revealed a kingdom. Only when it was rejected did He reveal a Sacrifice.
And I agree, OT saints looked forward to Christ -- the KING. Their sacrifices, feasts, etc. looked forward to the sacrifice but they didn't see or understand that, 1Cor 2:7, Col 1:26. "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:"
The "one Lord, one faith,..." is the unity of the Spirit which we have NOW that the Spirit indwells believers. Even this was not the case in the OT, Jim. I think you need to reconsider what you know and pray God help you find what you plead ignorance to -- why God chose whom He did.
skypair
Cheers,
Jim[/QUOTE]
Hi JKDBuck
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.
Not to mention that all men have heard.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world.
Those who claim they never heard either don't remember or they don't want to admit it. Since none of us can really assume those residents of 1500 years ago didn't hear or could have known about Christ. Paul says they did.
Since faith comes by hearing and God's word says they heard what more evidence do you need?
MB
The word say each man has a meansure of faith.Jkdbuck76 said:
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.
Not to mention that all men have heard.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world.
Those who claim they never heard either don't remember or they don't want to admit it. Since none of us can really assume those residents of 1500 years ago didn't hear or could have known about Christ. Paul says they did.
Since faith comes by hearing and God's word says they heard what more evidence do you need?
MB
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With regard to my post - you obviously missed what I said for it was nothing about the Gospel of Jesus.skypair said:
My post:
This refers to the atonement. The true Lamb was yet revealed but all came to salvation via faith in Gods way He made for man to approach Him.
They all knew what atonement was and that there had to be something to stood in your place to take your sin on your behalf.
Yes the disciple went preaching the Kingdom is at hand AT THE BEHEST of Christ. For even Jesus preached this same message! But it was in conjuction and a part of the the whole message. You seem to miss the FACT they didn't reject the Kingdom, They reject their KING> They were in full accord and desire for the kingdom but not this person who claimed kingship.
You need to read Hebrews most spesifically chapter 11 and 12.
They attain looking FORWARD to that promise. (the kingdom was a part of that promise but they didn't know this must come first)
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webdog said:
I'll answer your question with a question: Can the atheist prove there is no God?
Of course not.
Look, Christianity did not come to the South America until the 1300's and 1400's.
Unless one is a mormon*, I know of no evidence that there were Christian missionaries in the new world prior to 900AD. The vikings came to Nova Scotia and Leif Ericson's wife was a Christian. But none of the sagas say they went to the Andes....but then again, none of the sagas say they didn't....
Now, webdog. Prove that they didn't.... See. That is the kind of question you are asking me.
*Edit: mormons believe Jesus appeared to the American Indians....
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So what I'm hearing so far is:
1) YES, you burn in HELL because you're lost.
2) NOT necessarily, this is God's Universe and He can do what He pleases.
3) Your question is fundamentally flawed, brother.
4) Calvanism Rules.
5) No it does not.
6) Oh yeah?
7) Yeah. I said it. There! You like that?!
8) Fine then. At the next foot washing, I'm gonna' make sure my
feet are extra smelly just for you!
Back to seriousness:
Are election, predestination etc fundamental to this discussion?
1) YES, you burn in HELL because you're lost.
2) NOT necessarily, this is God's Universe and He can do what He pleases.
3) Your question is fundamentally flawed, brother.
4) Calvanism Rules.
5) No it does not.
6) Oh yeah?
7) Yeah. I said it. There! You like that?!
8) Fine then. At the next foot washing, I'm gonna' make sure my
feet are extra smelly just for you!
Back to seriousness:
Are election, predestination etc fundamental to this discussion?
Are you saying there is anything too hard for God? This is the same thing Sarai did when told she would give birth in her old age.Jkdbuck76 said:
Did God have to wait because He is powerless to do anything before 900AD idly standing by waiting for that day technology will catch up allowing Him to share how / why He sent His Son?
Who proclaims the Gospel in Revelation 14:6? I'm not saying this happened in the past, but is it impossible for God?
I started a thread called "original sin" that plays a role in this thread, IMO.