Those who have never heard the gospel?

[Jkdbuck76]

Are you saying there is anything too hard for God? This is the same thing Sarai did when told she would give birth in her old age.

Did God have to wait because He is powerless to do anything before 900AD idly standing by waiting for that day technology will catch up allowing Him to share how / why He sent His Son?

Sure. Rome paved the whole "then-known" world with roads. The gospel could be sent all over the then-known world. Greek was the language of the then-known world in 1st Century AD and that was the language of the NT. Wonder why He just didn't come down and die right there on a cross outside of Eden......

Who proclaims the Gospel in Revelation 14:6? I'm not saying this happened in the past, but is it impossible for God?

I started a thread called "original sin" that plays a role in this thread, IMO.

God cannot lie. God cannot fail. I'll check the "original sin" thread...sounds like good stuff.

God sends people to share the gospel of salvation.
The Levites carried the Ark. We carry the gospel.

If we're not fishing, we're not following properly.

 

[webdog]

If God send people only to share the Gospel, who is doing the proclaiming in Revelation 14:6? Have you ever heard of the Gospl in the Stars?

 

[ituttut]

What happens to those who have never heard the gospel?

Say I grew up in the Andes mountains 1,500 years ago.

When I die, do I go to hell? Will I be sent to the Lake of Fire?
I need input....

Welcome aboard Jkdbuck76. I believe His Word will answer that for us. There is one gospel from one end to the other, but there are gospels inbetween also.

There is an everlasting gospel, and all men know of it, even from the beginning. But there are other gospels.

We have a gospel today that God had hidden. Today it is not hidden. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved. This is the Grace Commission that we are to spread today. Have all heard this gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven? If not it is our fault. If not then all have the everlasting gospel that was known in the beginning, and will know at the last during the Tribulation period. This will be the only gospel left, just as at the beginning, as the "Gospel of the Grace" of God will no longer be available after we are "caught up to our Lord Jesus Christ in the air".

Fear God is the everlasting gospel, and every human being and animal knows this.

 

[Tom Butler]

Consistancy does NOT require that God Keep reaching out to those who have rejected. God in the first was not obligated to offer but did so from His benevolence as Calvin states (and I agree there...imagine that ) But once offered NO WHERE in scripture does it say that God must continue to do so. I find scripture states the only people that God is long suffering toward (continuing to call out to) are those who will be His. Now God may even do such to some sinners repeatedly who will not repent. I can not say He does or doesn't.quote]

Thanks for clearing up that question. I agree with the idea that all people have the light of creation, of course. We have clear scripture in Romans that says so.

To make sure I understand you, I see you saying that if they reject that light, the God is not obligated to give them more light, including the light of the gospel. I don't want to characterize your view beyond what you have said, but that was the conclusion I came to. I trust you'll correct me if I got it wrong.

If, that's right, however, then this puts you at odds with some of non-Cals, I think.

BTW, I refer occasionally to the book of Jasher, mentioned twice in the OT. It's a history, paralleling the first few books of the OT. In it, it reveals that Abram was taught about Jehovah God by Noah and Shem, beginning when he was about ten years old. They all lived in the area of Babel, ruled by King Nimrod. So that might be one way some of those pagans learned about Jehovah.

 

[Tom Butler]

One question always arises: why send missionaries if those in ignorance go to heaven anyway? The answer is: The Great Commission.0

Bingo. That's the answer whether you're a Cal or non-Cal. We don't know whom God has chosen, but he does, and he's told us to go tell them the gospel.

In fact, all of his elect will hear the gospel. And they will repent and believe.

 

[Tom Butler]

There is more than one gospel though, Tom. There are at least 2.
skypair

skypair, I'm not a dispy, and am not well schooled in dispy theology. So I'm not qualified to debate this with you. So I'll let you and Allen hash this out. But I agree with him.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Thanks everybody for your input.

Have a great weekend. Please pray for our soldiers, for the unsaved, and for those enduring horrible weather.

Jkdbuck76

 

[Allan]

Thanks for clearing up that question. I agree with the idea that all people have the light of creation, of course. We have clear scripture in Romans that says so.

To make sure I understand you, I see you saying that if they reject that light, the God is not obligated to give them more light, including the light of the gospel. I don't want to characterize your view beyond what you have said, but that was the conclusion I came to. I trust you'll correct me if I got it wrong.

If, that's right, however, then this puts you at odds with some of non-Cals, I think.

BTW, I refer occasionally to the book of Jasher, mentioned twice in the OT. It's a history, paralleling the first few books of the OT. In it, it reveals that Abram was taught about Jehovah God by Noah and Shem, beginning when he was about ten years old. They all lived in the area of Babel, ruled by King Nimrod. So that might be one way some of those pagans learned about Jehovah.

I appreciate that sentiment, but I haven't met anyone to whom it did. However that aside, it does not bother me to be at odds with those of like theology. I'm not here to groom my knowledge from them but from the word of God, right?? If I were a betting man, I would bet you'ld say the same.

And yes you did understand just what I was saying.

 

[MB]

Hi Jkdbuck;

Do you think that Paul was talking about the Tower of Babel civilization?

I mean, there is no record of missionaries in South America prior to the 1300's and 1400's.

I have no idea how they heard or why they should have received a measure of faith but scripture says they did. Paul said "it went out in to all the earth" These words weren't in italics.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
The measure of faith is what they received by hearing it. It was up to them to act on the faith that they had.
A few years ago I read a story in turning point magazine of a POW who cried out to God while being tortured. He said he had, had no religious training but was in such agony from the torture and all. He said one day a guard came by and tossed a Bible from a care package the guard had robbed, and laughed at him. He said he didn't know what the guard said but was sure it wasn't pretty from his expression. The POW picked up the Bible and began to read it, he said he had noting else to do. The man was saved as a result. Where did the man get the faith to cry out "OH GOD", while in agony. He said He didn't know. We can't say that men in the Andes 1500 years ago were lost we don't know. At one time the earth according to science was all one con tenant. In fact at one time there was only one man and he knew God. Things have a way of being handed down from generation to generation. The Hopi Indians in Arizona tell a similar story of Noah and his ark for example. If they knew of Noah certainly they could have just as easily known about God. They prayed to a great spirit. God is Spirit and He certainly is great I'm not saying He is the same God but He could have been. I find it interesting that men never think of such things. If a man can cry out to a God he doesn't know anything about. Then God can see to it that the man who cried out gets the information he needs to understand. You might say well God doesn't hear the prayers of the natural man but you'd be saying that God doesn't know about it as well. We both know there is nothing He doesn't know about. I thank God that all things are possible with God.

MB

 

[skypair]

In that case, salvation is conditional upon man's choice, making man the hinge and turning point of his own salvation, which is something about which he can boast.

npetreley,

You're letting your focus drift off of Christ and onto man with that boasting remark. It is what it is and no amount of false accusation and emotional appeal will change it.

"Lest any man should boast" would be regarding man's own works. Rom 4:5 precludes "belief" from being "works." "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." This pretty much "defangs" your argument about belief being works which we can boast of.

Again, your argument being N/A, what you need to do is ask yourself whether you chose Christ -- and let us know.

skypair

 

[skypair]

skypair, I'm not a dispy, and am not well schooled in dispy theology. So I'm not qualified to debate this with you. So I'll let you and Allen hash this out. But I agree with him.

That's OK, Tom. Allan and I are on the same page, just not communicating our agreement very well :love2:

Are you interested/curious at all in dispensationalism? Like Allan says, it is God calling all along, OT and NT. It is Him we must believe. Only difference is what God asks them and us to believe, right? This is how man first began to notice that there might be more than one dispensation/revelation of God.

skypair

 

[Tom Butler]

Are you interested/curious at all in dispensationalism? Like Allan says, it is God calling all along, OT and NT. It is Him we must believe. Only difference is what God asks them and us to believe, right? This is how man first began to notice that there might be more than one dispensation/revelation of God.

skypair[/quote]

Oh, I have a lot of dispy books. Pentecost's Things to Come, Some Ryrie stuff. I know just enough to know dispy's hold to a pre-trib rapture. I read Pentecost's book and my eyes glaze over.

Same thing with Ed Edwards' posts. He knows this stuff so well, but my eyes still glaze over. I was a pre-tribber until 25 years ago. Had never heard taught anything but. But the theological foundation is pretty deep for me. Besides, I couldn't find clear scripture to support it.

 

[Jim1999]

You mean there are still people who hold to dispensationalism? I am amazed! I gave that nonsense up in 1945, although I have read and admired many books written by dispensationalists...for other values.

Amil here, all the way.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[skypair]

Are you interested/curious at all in dispensationalism? Like Allan says, it is God calling all along, OT and NT. It is Him we must believe. Only difference is what God asks them and us to believe, right? This is how man first began to notice that there might be more than one dispensation/revelation of God.

skypair

Oh, I have a lot of dispy books. Pentecost's Things to Come, Some Ryrie stuff. I know just enough to know dispy's hold to a pre-trib rapture. I read Pentecost's book and my eyes glaze over.

Same thing with Ed Edwards' posts. He knows this stuff so well, but my eyes still glaze over. I was a pre-tribber until 25 years ago. Had never heard taught anything but. But the theological foundation is pretty deep for me. Besides, I couldn't find clear scripture to support it.

It might be worth your while to reconsider, Tom. The direction you have gone seems to be honey to the mouth but bitter to the stomach.

I think Calvinism appeals to scholars because it is postulated in "systematic" terms that sound right -- but aren't. You gravitated toward a theology, for one thing, that hasn't fully accounted for Israel in its plan. Neither on the front end (their salvation) nor on the back end, the tribulation and MK (what God's purpose is for them). Just like infants, you've/they've "lumped them in with" the church to "keep it simple." Well, that's simple, alright, but it's not scriptural.

skypair

 

[skypair]

You mean there are still people who hold to dispensationalism? I am amazed! I gave that nonsense up in 1945, although I have read and admired many books written by dispensationalists...for other values.

Amil here, all the way.

Cheers,

Jim

Love ya anyway, Jim. I'm getting that way myself -- "old dogs, new tricks" sorta thing, eh?

skypair

 

[Tom Butler]

It might be worth your while to reconsider, Tom. The direction you have gone seems to be honey to the mouth but bitter to the stomach.

I think Calvinism appeals to scholars because it is postulated in "systematic" terms that sound right -- but aren't.

skypair

I don't want to say much because we'll hijack this thread. I do want to say that my move away from dispy-ism was not related to Calvinism. It was that I couldn't find a single clear, unequivocal, no-other-interpretation verse or passage that spoke of a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

So what I'm hearing so far is:

1) YES, you burn in HELL because you're lost.

2) NOT necessarily, this is God's Universe and He can do what He pleases.

3) Your question is fundamentally flawed, brother.

4) Calvanism Rules.

5) No it does not.

6) Oh yeah?

7) Yeah. I said it. There! You like that?!

8) Fine then. At the next foot washing, I'm gonna' make sure my
feet are extra smelly just for you!

Do almost all threads around here end up like the above? :tongue3:

 

[Tom Butler]

Yep, but don't get bent out of shape over it. This is pretty normal. The guys who are debating on this thread have been doing this for a long time, and no one's arguments are new to the other.

Even though there might be an occasional sharp edge to an argument, we're sorta like the lawmakers of opposing parties who can hammer at each other and take a break to have lunch together.

Don't mistake strong arguments for antagonism.

What gets the claws out for us are know-it-alls who come on here and demonstrate arrogance and condescension. You'll know them when they show up. We've had a few lately and they're gone now. We do not suffer arrogance quietly.

Hey, just noticed, this is my 1100th post. No, you don't have to do that. Really. Well, thanka-vermuch.

 

[Allan]

Congragulations Tom on making the 1,000 Post Club.

I just made it to not long ago. When I saw that I thought, now where did my life go! :laugh:

I agree with Tom concerning it being pretty normal around here. But did like the analogy of us to lawmakers, that was pretty good and accurately (IMO) descriptive for the most part. There are always some though... lets just leave it at that, shall we :thumbs:

So in truth the sequence JKDBUCK76 stated actually plays out better if we added one more line to the ditty:

Originally Posted by Jkdbuck76
So what I'm hearing so far is:

1) YES, you burn in HELL because you're lost.

2) NOT necessarily, this is God's Universe and He can do what He pleases.

3) Your question is fundamentally flawed, brother.

4) Calvanism Rules.

5) No it does not.

6) Oh yeah?

7) Yeah. I said it. There! You like that?!

8) Fine then. At the next foot washing, I'm gonna' make sure my
feet are extra smelly just for you!

9. Are you hungry?
.....Yeah
.....Lets go get a bite to eat. By the way, hows your family been? We've been praying for them...

 

[pinoybaptist]

Hey, just noticed, this is my 1100th post. ......

Now if that doesn't prove predestination I don't know what would....
congrats, brother.