Those who have never heard

[webdog]

Amy,

I am kinda picking up in the end here without going through and reading everything. Has it been mentioned that Romans 1 is really a history of mankind since the beginning rather than a history of every individual person?

Could that also be the case with the rest of Romans, too?

 

[webdog]

I can believe anything I know. How could I not believe in something I know? Do you know you exist but not believe it?

Good illustration supporting OSAS...

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Could that also be the case with the rest of Romans, too?

What do you mean?

 

[webdog]

What do you mean?

Romans 9-11 is often said this is in reference to individual salvation, while I believe, as you stated in Romans 1, it is dealing with a nation.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Romans 9-11 is often said this is in reference to individual salvation, while I believe, as you stated in Romans 1, it is dealing with a nation.

I am not sure how you can get that from Romans 1. The idea that a history of the world is being presented in Romans 1 I received from the text itself.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy,

I am kinda picking up in the end here without going through and reading everything. Has it been mentioned that Romans 1 is really a history of mankind since the beginning rather than a history of every individual person?

No, I don't think that aspect has been discussed. I don't believe I have ever heard that before.
Please explain.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

No, I don't think that aspect has been discussed. I don't believe I have ever heard that before.
Please explain.

When I read Romans 1 I see the Apostle describing God's wrath against all ungodliness from the beginning of creation. And it appears that from this original rejection (thinking of the fall of Adam, and thus mankind in Adam) men have continued to fall away from the true knowledge of God being One and all powerful Maker of Heaven and Earth, and into idolatry, which the history of the world shows us plainly, and fell into greater depravity because God gave them up to uncleaness (He did not restrain their wicked inclinations) even unto to vile affections and a reprobate mind, again, God giving them over to it, that is, not restraining it.

So in that sense I see it as a history of the world.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Yes, it was a beam. Is that a speck I see you yours?
:laugh:

Nope brother..... i've got trees in mine.

 

[Amy.G]

When I read Romans 1 I see the Apostle describing God's wrath against all ungodliness from the beginning of creation. And it appears that from this original rejection (thinking of the fall of Adam, and thus mankind in Adam) men have continued to fall away from the true knowledge of God being One and all powerful Maker of Heaven and Earth, and into idolatry, which the history of the world shows us plainly, and fell into greater depravity because God gave them up to uncleaness (He did not restrain their wicked inclinations) even unto to vile affections and a reprobate mind, again, God giving them over to it, that is, not restraining it.

So in that sense I see it as a history of the world.

How do the elect figure into this? I see the world going downhill, at least up to time of Noah, for example. Which brings me to another question. All the people during Noah's day were non-elect? Only Noah and his family were elect? I'm having a problem with this election process.

 

[J.D.]

I can believe anything I know. How could I not believe in something I know? Do you know you exist but not believe it?



Yes, J.D., I'm well aware that an atheist would claim this about spiritual intuition, the convicting power of the Bible, or anything else spiritual. But you and I both KNOW he is wrong. How, J.D. do we know this? Hmmm... Maybe spritual concepts are inborn.



I agree. Let's not bicker semantics.

One more time, which of the following do you specifically take issue with and why:

1) It is intuitive that there is a Creator.

2) It is intuitive that I/man am/are sinful and need to be foriven by my Creator.

3) If I accept my Creator's forgiveness then by default I accept the method by which he forgives me (i.e. applying the redeeming the blood of Christ to my soul).

4) If I accept my Creator's forgiveness then by default I put faith in His ability to forvige (i.e. Christ literally empowers God to forgive so Christ literally is His ability to forgive).

5) Therefore, the plan of salvation is intuitive.

6) This explains how God's plan of salvation really has appeared unto all men including the Israelites in the OT who had never heard the name of Christ much less the Romans Road.

Specifically, I can accept #'s 1 and 2, but #3 and forward can not be deduced from general revelation/nature. The method by which man rationalizes that he will be forgiven is self-atonement through personal righteousness. No one can know God's "method", i.e. substitutionary atonement, without special revelation (directly from God or from scripture).

BTW there is a theory called scripturalism espoused by Dr. Gorden Clark and others that proposes that we can no NOTHING apart from scripture. I don't wholly endorse the theory, but it does bring up some interesting questions.

For example, how would you know that the heavens delcare the glory of God if you had not read it in scripture? How would you know that they are without excuse if you had not read it in scripture? How would you know anything of God unless the scripture had revealed?

Any way, I think ReformedBaptist has a good grasp on the Romans 1 passage and I think both of us can learn something from him.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

How do the elect figure into this? I see the world going downhill, at least up to time of Noah, for example. Which brings me to another question. All the people during Noah's day were non-elect? Only Noah and his family were elect? I'm having a problem with this election process.

Well, I think we can look to the Scripture and see how God speaks about Noah and the people of his day that perished in the flood. Check out Heb 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; and 2 Peter 2:5.

I'd write more, but I gotta run...I will be away on business a few days.