Those Who Never Heard the Gospel

[Steadfast Fred]

Jesus says had he not spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin, since he did speak to them, they have no excuse for their sins.

Faith comes from hearing. If someone hears the truth and rejects it, that is one thing. If someone never hears the truth, because it was not told to them, or because they are mentally disabled and cannot hear the truth, then they are not guilty of sin.

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin, John 15:22.

John 15:24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

Galatians 3:22 (KJV) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Sorry, Moriah, even those who have not heard are guilty of sin according to God's Word.

 

[Moriah]

I am absolutely not speaking out of ignorance but instead from years of working with the disabled - some very severely so. They CAN and HAVE been taught about Jesus Christ in our church. Just because we don't get them to say a particular prayer or respond in a way that we expect doesn't mean that they haven't responded in their hearts.

You are speaking out of ignorance. I just told you there are people who are so mentally disabled that they cannot even be taken into a church.

You have no idea what you are talking about on this subject.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Just because one does not articulate does not mean they have not heard.

God's Word states that all are under sin... all must believe on Jesus Christ or they will die in sin.

 

[annsni]

You are speaking out of ignorance. I just told you there are people who are so mentally disabled that they cannot even be taken into a church.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Then your church is missing out on ministering to a very special segment of the population. Again, I am not speaking out of ignorance. I am speaking out of years of knowledge of working with the disabled.

Right now we have a young man who attends our small church. He was supposed to die at birth from hydrocephaly but he survived. He is wheelchair bound. He cannot communicate other than the vocalizations he does regularly but they are not vocalizations that mean anything. Yes, even in church, he makes noise but it is not a distraction. Has he responded to the Gospel? We don't know. But I do know that his vocalizations are different when the worship music is played (even different than when other music is played) and he is never upset to be there (when he clearly can show upset in other locations). He has heard the Gospel and I trust God enough to know that He can get through a mentally disabled person's heart just as much as He got through to mine.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Galatians 3:22 (KJV) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

John 20:31 (KJV) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

All includes even those people you claim cannot be taken to a Church. You limit God with your doctrine. God is able to reach down much farther than man can reach up. God will meet people where they are to give them the Gospel of Salvation.

If it is a mentally challenged person, God will reveal Himself in some way that that person can understand.

HE has already declared them to be under sin, and that they must believe in order to have eternal life. Life only comes through believing on Jesus Christ. Apart from faith in Him, one is lost.

 

[annsni]

Galatians 3:22 (KJV) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

John 20:31 (KJV) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

All includes even those people you claim cannot be taken to a Church. You limit God with your doctrine. God is able to reach down much farther than man can reach up. God will meet people where they are to give them the Gospel of Salvation.

If it is a mentally challenged person, God will reveal Himself in some way that that person can understand.

HE has already declared them to be under sin, and that they must believe in order to have eternal life. Life only comes through believing on Jesus Christ. Apart from faith in Him, one is lost.

Yep. If Jesus can get through to a dead person (literally dead), then I'm sure mental disability is nothing.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Yep. If Jesus can get through to a dead person (literally dead), then I'm sure mental disability is nothing.

Good point!

 

[annsni]

Let me see if this works. You can see our launch team for the new church campus with Matthew in the center.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/36177_448611477384_8101871_n.jpg

 

[Moriah]

Galatians 3:22 (KJV) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

The Bible says we have to hear to believe. Some people have not heard.

Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Sorry, Moriah, even those who have not heard are guilty of sin according to God's Word.

Jesus says the words sin is unbelief in him see John 16:9. If a person does not hear of Jesus, then the sin of unbelief is not their fault.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The Bible says we have to hear to believe. Some people have not heard.




Jesus says the words sin is unbelief in him see John 16:9. If a person does not hear of Jesus, then the sin of unbelief is not their fault.

God declares that He has revealed Himself to them.

Romans 1:18 (KJV) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

God says ALL, not some, are under sin.

Galatians 3:22 (KJV) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

All means all. Even the mentally challenged are under sin and must believe on Christ

 

[Moriah]

Then your church is missing out on ministering to a very special segment of the population. Again, I am not speaking out of ignorance. I am speaking out of years of knowledge of working with the disabled.

You just keep being ignorant.
Did I just not say twice now that there are people so mentally disabled that they could not go to church?

Right now we have a young man who attends our small church. He was supposed to die at birth from hydrocephaly but he survived. He is wheelchair bound. He cannot communicate other than the vocalizations he does regularly but they are not vocalizations that mean anything. Yes, even in church, he makes noise but it is not a distraction.

You are ignorant about this topic. Do you know there are severely disabled that they would break things around you and hurt people?

Has he responded to the Gospel? We don't know. But I do know that his vocalizations are different when the worship music is played (even different than when other music is played) and he is never upset to be there (when he clearly can show upset in other locations). He has heard the Gospel and I trust God enough to know that He can get through a mentally disabled person's heart just as much as He got through to mine.

Oh, stop it.

 

[Moriah]

God declares that He has revealed Himself to them.

Romans 1:18 (KJV) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

That is about being judged according to the flesh.
That scripture shows my beliefs about the disabled to be true, since the mentally disabled are not responsible for their bad behavior.

God says ALL, not some, are under sin.

Galatians 3:22 (KJV) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

All are under sin. Not all hear so that they can believe. I gave you scripture about that already.

All means all. Even the mentally challenged are under sin and must believe on Christ

Faith comes from hearing. Not all have heard, and not all can hear.

 

[DHK]

So, you believe as I do about this.
This brings this discussion further, to the people who are not mentally disabled, to the people who never heard the true gospel, from people in remote areas, and even to people who have been raised in a false religion.
They have not heard the truth.

As I said in another thread, infants and mentally challenged are a subject in and of itself, not to be confused with "those who have not heard."

If there are those that have not heard, then their blood is on your hands for not being concerned enough to carry out the great commission so that they can hear. We have the command to go out into all the world to preach the gospel to every creature. We have the people, the resources, the means. There is no excuse why every person cannot hear the gospel especially in this day and age, except for the fact that there are so many that are disobeying the command given in the Great Commission.

 

[Moriah]

As I said in another thread, infants and mentally challenged are a subject in and of itself, not to be confused with "those who have not heard."

You have NOT shown how there is a difference. Not hearing the message is, not hearing the message. The world’s sin is in unbelief in Jesus.
People will be judged according to their sins what they did in their body. To say that Jesus does not consider if they heard God’s word or not is just irresponsible nonsense teaching.
The Bible speaks many times about hearing.

If there are those that have not heard, then their blood is on your hands for not being concerned enough to carry out the great commission so that they can hear.

Back off accuser. No one’s blood is on my hands.

 

[DHK]

You have NOT shown how there is a difference. Not hearing the message is, not hearing the message. The world’s sin is in unbelief in Jesus.

In order to have belief one has to understand. There is no unbelief where there is no understanding. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." An infant cannot believe. He cannot have faith. This type of discussion is moot. An infant does not have any faith or unbelief.

As for the rest of the world, the Bible has condemned them all in unbelief, and tells us plainly that "they are without excuse." There is no excuse for their unbelief. They cannot go to heaven without belief in Christ.

People will be judged according to their sins what they did in their body. To say that Jesus does not consider if they heard God’s word or not is just irresponsible nonsense teaching.

To state that is to call Jesus a liar when he stated that he was the only way in John 14:6. Either he is the only way or he is not. Is he lying or telling the truth. Do you put your emotions and human reasoning above the words of Jesus? It is your teaching that is irresponsible.

The Bible speaks many times about hearing.

Yes. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
They must hear the gospel--the message of Jesus in order to be saved.
Are you willing to give it to them? If not, then their blood will be upon your hands.

Back off accuser. No one’s blood is on my hands.

No accusation here; I am just telling the truth of God's Word.
Our duty is to carry out the Great Commission to ALL the world. If you fail in doing your part, then what?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Whoever closed my "Faith plus right beliefs" thread. Thank you. Fred was at it again at the last. I tried to make peace, but alas...

Now I hope this thread doesn't degenerate like that one did.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

1 John 5:4 (KJV) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 (KJV) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26 (KJV) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5 (KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12 (KJV) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 3:21 (KJV) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 21:7 (KJV) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

It is only the overcomers who will sit with the Lord in His throne. It is only the overcomers that will inherit all things. It is only the overcomers who will be God's sons. It is only the overcomers who will not be hurt of the second death.

And who are the overcomers? Those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

You can go on babbling how some people will be saved without even knowing Jesus Christ or hearing His Gospel, but the Word of God reveals that only those who believe in Him will be His sons and will sit with Him in His Father's throne.

To teach others that they can be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ is to train spiritual thieves and robbers who will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Moriah]

In order to have belief one has to understand. There is no unbelief where there is no understanding. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." An infant cannot believe. He cannot have faith. This type of discussion is moot. An infant does not have any faith or unbelief.

As for the rest of the world, the Bible has condemned them all in unbelief, and tells us plainly that "they are without excuse." There is no excuse for their unbelief. They cannot go to heaven without belief in Christ.

A person who has never heard the truth must also be considered. You have not shown the difference between an infant, the mentally disabled, or a person who has never heard the truth.

Those spoken of have never heard the truth in that they are alike.

To state that is to call Jesus a liar when he stated that he was the only way in John 14:6. Either he is the only way or he is not. Is he lying or telling the truth. Do you put your emotions and human reasoning above the words of Jesus? It is your teaching that is irresponsible.

Be respectful when you debate and when you speak about Jesus. Stop saying Jesus is a liar. I do not care what way you mean to say it, just do not say it. It is a bad debate technique, and it proves nothing but a bad and disrespectful technique.

Jesus is the only way to the Father. Everyone will be judged after they die. When Jesus judges, it will be through him.

The only thing you have proven is that you do not have understanding.

People will be judged according to their sins what they did in their body. To say that Jesus does not consider if they heard God’s word or not is just irresponsible nonsense teaching.

Yes. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
They must hear the gospel--the message of Jesus in order to be saved.
Are you willing to give it to them? If not, then their blood will be upon your hands.

Stop with the evil accusations. You do not understand the Word of God. You make accusations that would make the devil smile.

No accusation here; I am just telling the truth of God's Word.
Our duty is to carry out the Great Commission to ALL the world. If you fail in doing your part, then what?

You do not understand God, so no wonder you say such things.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by me".

If God saved man without man having to trust Christ, God would be proving His Son to be a liar.

You say you don't like DHK or myself saying Jesus is made to be a liar? Well, there is a solution to that...

Stop making Him to be a liar by saying people can be saved without knowing Him.

To say that people can be saved without knowing Jesus Christ is irresponsible teaching.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

You say the mentally challenged cannot hear the Gospel.

You do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.

Jesus told the Apostles to go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature.

Why would He tell them to preach to someone who cannot hear? It is obvious the mentally challenged are able to hear more than you are willing to give them credit for.