Three People in the God head??? It is what the Bible teaches!

[Don]

We've stepped beyond silliness. My final post:

from Jerry Moon:

That's neat

It is, isn't it?

that means my word is co-equal with me then? I've always thought that when I spoke, my word was part of me.

Not exactly, and I'll tell you why in a moment. Just remember: The Word was with God, and the Word was God. With and was. Jesus was with God, and He was God. If He was with God, and also was God, then He's co-equal with God.

It's never dawned on me that it is simply co-equal to me.

That's because yours isn't--unless you're placing yourself on the same level as God.

-------------------------------------------------

From hrhema:

Just because the word he is used for the Holy Ghost in John does not prove the Holy Ghost is a person.

Your explanation also doesn't prove that the Holy Ghost isn't a person.

The spirit of God would be spoken of in a masculine gender since God is masculine.

I thought you just got through making an argument that God is a spirit?!?

Are you now trying to say that God doesn't have any hands, but He's got masculine characteristics?

 

[Chemnitz]

The term person(s) is only a philosophical term that is used to describe the Father, and the Son, and the Holy spirit, it does not denote a physical body.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Jerry Moon:

Not to meantion that co-equal is not found in the Bible...

There are many verses in the Bible that put Christ on an equal basis with the Father; that is that make Him his co-equal.

"I and the Father are one" John 10:30

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
--Here Jesus declares Himself to be both on earth and in Heaven at the same time, declaring His omnipresence, an attribute of God alone.

Mat.28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
--Here he declares His omnipotence.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
--Here He is declared Creator of all things (see also Col.1:16)

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
--This is another claim to His deity and his equality with God.

How can one deny this plain teaching of the Word of God?
DHK

 

[Jerry Moon]

Originally posted by Don:
Not exactly, and I'll tell you why in a moment. Just remember: The Word was with God, and the Word was God. With and was. Jesus was with God, and He was God. If He was with God, and also was God, then He's co-equal with God.
[/QB]

Oh... so then my own words are not with me?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Jerry Moon:

Oh... so then my own words are not with me?

Jerry,
Was your word made flesh? Did it dwell among us? Was/is your word the only begotten of the Father? (see John 1:14) If that be true, then reverence is due to you as God; if that be false, then you ought to be quiet on the matter.
DHK

[ June 24, 2002, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Alex]

The word God in the first verse in the KJ bible is:

H430
אלהים
'ĕlo^hi^ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

Many say this is the first reference of the coming of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Remember Jesus and the Holy Spirit did not manifest until the NT(meaning...show up, as in, "I am now here"). As for Oneness, this isn't mentioned in the bible nor the Trinity. There is NO way not to realize the Trinity as opposed to the Oneness. Much too many scriptures that indicates a Trinity/ONE GOD deity. I didn't read the 11 pages of posts but would ask the Oneness individuals a question as MOST believe they are the only ones Heaven bound. Is this true?

God Bless...........Alex

PS: Hello, Don!!

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Alex:
The word God in the first verse in the KJ bible is:

H430
אלהים
'ĕlo^hi^ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

Many say this is the first reference of the coming of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Remember Jesus and the Holy Spirit did not manifest until the NT(meaning...show up, as in, "I am now here"). As for Oneness, this isn't mentioned in the bible nor the Trinity. There is NO way not to realize the Trinity as opposed to the Oneness. Much too many scriptures that indicates a Trinity/ONE GOD deity. I didn't read the 11 pages of posts but would ask the Oneness individuals a question as MOST believe they are the only ones Heaven bound. Is this true?

God Bless...........Alex

PS: Hello, Don!!

I dont know Alex, I have always wondered the same thing. Who are we to say that we are?

But here is the way I veiw your question. Eph 4:5 says "One Lord, ONE FAITH One baptisim.

Now lets just focus on the "ONE FAITH" part. What does Faith Mean? Faith here means belief,

So the bible is telling us there is only One Faith. How many faiths are out there? You could probably think of 15 without thinking.

Now would I tell anyone else they are not heaven bound? No I would never tell someone that unless.... you are going to hell. But the bible does give us specific instructions on what one must do to be saved.

So I would say in order to find out what the One Faith is we need to look in the bible to determine what the first faith was and where that first faith begain.

The bible tells us to rightly devide the word of truth. We have the gospels, (the life of Jesus), the book of Acts (Actions of the Apostles), the Epistles (books written to churches which were already saved) Romans-Jude, and The book of Revelation (prophesy).

I strongly belive that we find salvation in the book of Acts b/c that is where the Church was established and that is when the New Testament Started.

So are trinitarians going to hell? Yes, if they do not obey the godpel.

So are Oneness belivers going to hell? Yes, if they do not obey the gospel.

GOd bless

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by ONENESS:

But here is the way I veiw your question. Eph 4:5 says "One Lord, ONE FAITH One baptisim.

Now lets just focus on the "ONE FAITH" part. What does Faith Mean? Faith here means belief,

Where do you get this teaching from?

Jude 3 "ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

Faith here is the body of doctrine that is given unto us. For us it is the entire Bible. We are to contend for it. There is one faith, that true faith (body of doctrine) which arises out of a proper interpretation of the Bible. That faith, that body of doctrine, includes a belief in the trinity.
DHK

[ June 25, 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[GrannyGumbo]

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1John 5:11-13)KJV

Hell was prepared for satan. Hell is the destination of all the unsaved. Hell is the place for all those who have rejected Jesus Christ. One will not go to hell if they don't speak in tongues. What must one do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!

Acts 2:38 will not save you. Water baptism will not save you. Speaking in tongues will not save you. Works will not save you. Belief in God does not bring salvation. Prayer does not bring salvation. Neither does sincerity. Just take God at His Word by faith; repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. God's power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life; all without the speaking in tongues.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".(Romans 10:13)KJV

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:

Originally posted by ONENESS:
[qb]

But here is the way I veiw your question. Eph 4:5 says "One Lord, ONE FAITH One baptisim.

Now lets just focus on the "ONE FAITH" part. What does Faith Mean? Faith here means belief,

Where do you get this teaching from?

I believe it comes from the Greek.

KJV New Testament
Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4102
Original Word Word Origin
pistiß from (3982)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pistis 6:174,849
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pis'-tis Noun Feminine

Definition
conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
relating to God
the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
relating to Christ
a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
the religious beliefs of Christians
belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
fidelity, faithfulness
the character of one who can be relied on

MEE

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
[QBHell was prepared for satan. Hell is the destination of all the unsaved. Hell is the place for all those who have rejected Jesus Christ. One will not go to hell if they don't speak in tongues. What must one do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!

Acts 2:38 will not save you. Water baptism will not save you. Speaking in tongues will not save you. Works will not save you. Belief in God does not bring salvation. Prayer does not bring
salvation. Neither does sincerity. Just take God at His Word by faith; repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. God's power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life; all without the speaking in tongues.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Granny, do you believe that your son, Patrick, is lost because he believes as the Oneness saints believe?

MEE

 

[hrhema]

There are many sites on the web even Catholic enclyclopedia sites that don't agree with many individuals belief in the Trinity.

As I read today the Original Creeds by Athanasius and Origen was that the Father and Son and Holy Ghost are three distince persons who are co-equal, co-eternal and co-existent. These teachings taught that the Trinity was One God in three literal deified or Glorified persons. Just like you and me but deified.

In reading these doctrines those who taught before the Council of Nicea taught that Jesus was subordinate to the Father and that the Holy Ghost was subordinate to the Son but co-equal in other ways. This doctrine changed in 325 a.d. Others taught that Jesus was the incarnate God in flesh because he proceeded from the Father who is spirit and became flesh. That he was the logos the literal word out of the mouth of God that took upon himself flesh.

There were and still are many doctrine concerning the Godhead. Will these beliefs cause anyone to be lost. Absolutely not. The Trinitarians believe this doctrine is such a great mystery so if it is such a great mystery then why would anyone Go to Hell over their beliefs since it is obvious no one really understand this doctrine as the early church Fathers said.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

MEE~I believe my son, Patrick, was saved when he was ten years old & that's a fact! Nothing will ever take that away from him. As he grew older, I believe my son became terribly backslidden, but kept it well hidden. He has never drank liquor or smoked dope or slept around, & although he was an ordained deacon, the church's financial sectretary, sang in the choir, was on several committees, was the branch manager of his bank in the SuperWalmart center, was happily married, with a small son; I believe he was under a lot of pressure for a young man, but he failed to read & study his Bible, he probably failed to pray on a regular basis, he was beginning to miss some church services & we lacked a strong pastor who could have helped him-instead of encouraging him that "it's okay to go visit a tongues' church, it's only emotionalism, nothing can happen, as the boy is grounded enough"...

I believe satan seduced my stressed-out son just as surely as I'm sitting here in my chair. I believe he has been & is being chastised by God. I believe he knows he's caught-up in something so wicked & so evil, but he can't get out because of the 'hold' they have on him & I know he's scared. I believe if he doesn't repent from this, God may call him Home early(& the only consolation there is that he will be in the presence of Jesus). I know for a fact his mind will never be the same nor will he remember the innocence & simplicity of the salvation of his youth.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
MEE~I believe my son, Patrick, was saved when he was ten years old & that's a fact! Nothing will ever take that away from him.

---So you believe that Patrick is still saved even though he is of the Oneness faith?

I believe satan seduced my stressed-out son just as surely as I'm sitting here in my chair. I believe he has been & is being chastised by God. I believe he knows he's caught-up in something so wicked & so evil, but he can't get out because of the 'hold' they have on him & I know he's scared. I believe if he doesn't repent from
this, God may call him Home early(& the only consolation there is that he will be in the presence of Jesus). I know for a fact his mind will never be the same nor will he remember the innocence & simplicity of the salvation of his youth.

---You keep saying, "what you believe," but what does Patrick believe? Is he happy, or are you the one that is upset? If you feel that his soul is OK with God, what is the problem? Could it be that he has broken the tradition of being called a Baptist? It really doesn't matter what one calls themselves. It's just if they line up with what the Bible says and not a lot of
opinions. Right?

MEE

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1John 5:11-13)KJV

Hell was prepared for satan. Hell is the destination of all the unsaved. Hell is the place for all those who have rejected Jesus Christ. One will not go to hell if they don't speak in tongues. What must one do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!

Acts 2:38 will not save you. Water baptism will not save you. Speaking in tongues will not save you. Works will not save you. Belief in God does not bring salvation. Prayer does not bring salvation. Neither does sincerity. Just take God at His Word by faith; repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. God's power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life; all without the speaking in tongues.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".(Romans 10:13)KJV

Just take God at his word? Hmmmmmmm.... Isnt Acts 2:38 takeing him at his word?

 

[GrannyGumbo]

MEE~My son is not "of" the oneness 'faith', which denies the true God. He is "in" it & yes, he is still saved, in spite of that. As to what he believes, I do know it's not near as much as when he first got "caught-up" in this heresy. In 3yrs., he's gone thru' 3 churches; each one a little sicker than the previous.

Yes, we all are upset, as we are the ones having to pick up the pieces of his life. There really is no "tradition" of being called a Baptist, but it does make a difference what church one attends or who our friends are & it certainly does matter to God what one believes!

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
He is "in" it & yes, he is still saved, in spite of that.

There really is no "tradition" of being called a Baptist, but it does make a difference what church one attends or who our friends are & it certainly does matter to God what one believes!

I admit to being a little confused. If your son is indeed saved as you say, why be so upset?

If all about us is merely fleeting, but being saved is eternal, what is the difference?

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
[QB]MEE~My son is not "of" the oneness 'faith', which denies the true God. He is "in" it & yes, he is still saved, in spite of that. As to what he believes, I do know it's not near as much as when he first got "caught-up" in this heresy. In 3yrs., he's gone thru' 3 churches; each one a little sicker than the previous.

How do you come up with the statement that the believers of the Oneness faith "denies the true God?" We, of all the people in this world, other than the Jews, believe in "One God." The only difference is that they didn't and don't realize that Jesus Christ is and was the Messiah, but they will before it's over.

God as a Spirit, came to Earth as a man..returned as the same Spirit as in the beginning, which comes to humanity, which we refer to as the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. Three manifestations,
not three persons. ONE GOD!

 

[Chemnitz]

God as a Spirit, came to Earth as a man..returned as the same Spirit as in the beginning, which comes to humanity, which we refer to as the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. Three manifestations,
not three persons. ONE GOD!

Umm... no. Instead of repeating myself. All of the objections are in the past 50+ pages on this subject.

 

[hrhema]

Granny Gumbo:

Take it from someone who was in the Oneness movement and left. If you persist in forcing your beliefs on your son you will end up alienating your relationship with him. I guarantee this. I have seen this over and over again. Quit being upset about it and put the matter in God's hands.

So many people jump on this bandwagon that if someone doesn't believe exactly like their church believes or teaches its going to cost them their soul. Whether Baptist or Pentecostal exclusivism is wrong.

As I have said before there is many different views by hundreds of theologians about doctrines.
There are at least five different views and beliefs about the Trinity. There are at least three different views about the Oneness theology.
There is also a doctrine that teaches two in the Godhead. The whole thing all of these teachers say is the God head is a great mystery so since this is not a salvation issue why condemn others for not believing exactly like you do.

You can disagree about the beliefs in speaking in tongues but those who call it of the Devil is taking it to extreme. I know a lot of Baptist preachers who refuse to call tongues of the Devil lest they be really fighting against God. why do they take this stand? They know that not all Pentecostal churches are wild and do the stupid things a lot of charismatic churches do. They know that most of the true Pentecostal churches do not believe tongues has anything to do with salvation.

To be honest with you the Oneness churches attracted me because they are more family oriented and caring then 95% of any Baptist church I have ever attended. This is probably what attracted you son instead of doctrine or the tongues issue. THey honestly treat you like you are a member of one big family and it is not handled like cults as people think. Anyone can leave anytime they want to. There is no one holding your son against his will. If he is afraid it is because of beliefs he has accepted. I was afraid to leave because of teachings not because they made me afraid by making threats. sure they might say you will lose your soul but hey a lot of churches use that tactic including some Baptist.

If you want your son out of this movement then you are going to have to find a church that is as loving and caring as these people are for him to attend and don't bet that your church you are attending is the church because you have probably accepted the way most Baptist churches are unless your church is one the of most rate ones.

Right now I cannot be happy in most Baptist churches and it has nothing to do with doctrine but it has to do with fellowship and friends and right down people not having a caring attitude.

THey might threaten his salvation but that is not the deep real reason he won't leave.