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time of the end

HankD

Well-Known Member
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Actually a futurist such as John Gill saw it this way, that it's not "sight with physical eyes" (Gill had probably never even heard of 'Preterism' before):

"....nevertheless, I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the son of man, sitting at the right hand of power ...... not, that they should see him at the right hand of God with their bodily eyes, as Stephen did; but that they should, or at least might, see and know by the effects, that he was set down at the right hand of God; as by the pouring forth of the holy Spirit upon his disciples, on the day of pentecost; by the wonderful spread of his Gospel, and the success of it, notwithstanding all the opposition made by them, and others; and particularly, by the vengeance he should take on their nation, city, and temple; and which may be more especially designed in the next clause; and coming in, the clouds of heaven. So Christ's coming to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, as it is often called the coming of the son of man, is described in this manner...."



I'm not a 'full preterist' but I don't find it in the least as objectionable as the blatant war mongering Zionism that Dispensationalism has morphed into. It's the most dangerous cult in the world.



Haven't the least idea what you're referring to. Perhaps you could clarify just a little, example or two?



My biggest objection is the carnality of your view. We're told that 'the kingdom cometh not with observation', and that we've 'not come to a mount that might be touched', yet dispies are longing for something that can be seen with the eye and touched with the hand.

My other biggest objection is the blatant disregard by dispies of the many time indicators in the scriptures surrounding/concerning the coming of the Son of Man:

101 time indicators
K, I have decided long ago after an unpleasant experience on the BB to not enter into a prolonged debate about these things and it looks as if that mindset is always brewing on the BB.

I am no exception and being who I am I would become offensive again as I did years ago here on the BB

My own position on the second coming is focused on Acts 1:9-12 which I have already said.
I don't want to bruise any feelings - primarily because although my own position which has its focus on Acts 1:9-12 it is not chiseled in concrete. I fully admit to the problems of the futurist point of view.

Anyone who wants to delve further into this subject concerning my own personal opinion and preferences concerning Last Things (which opinions and preferences have been modified over the years) can scan "HankD" and review them.

Concerning the 101 items. For many centuries Christian authors would make an apologetic to many of the 101 items quoting that portion of "My lord delayeth his coming".

I value your friendship and don't want to engage in a debate with you.

Finally I know your position from past threads, posts, etc and you just might be right. It's possible, you make some very good points.

HankD
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I value your friendship and don't want to engage in a debate with you.

Hank, I've much respect for you and value your friendship. Perhaps you've misconstrued the acute disdain I have for Christian Zionism as an affront to you. I'll try to be more careful in the future.
 
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Grasshopper

Active Member
Site Supporter
Hi Grasshopper!
Correct statement.
I have always admitted that the destruction of the temple was part of the prophetic statements of Jesus Christ.



Personally and FWIW I have no problem with partial preterists.

HankD

HankD, you are one of the good guys. I've always enjoyed our back and forth over the years. You come across as very honest man seeking nothing but truth. Kyredneck and I are going to make you a preterist (of some sort) before we're done.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hank, I've much respect for you and value your friendship. Perhaps you've misconstrued the acute disdain I have for Christian Zionism as an affront to you. I'll try to be more careful in the future.
I'm not a Zionist K.
Israel is our ally and as such I do support them in my political view just as I would France or Canada.
However they (Israel) are not without infraction of global law and common decency and should be held accountable whenever they cross the line.

Some of their retaliations and aggressiveness against the Palestinians crosses that line IMO.

HankD
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
HankD, you are one of the good guys. I've always enjoyed our back and forth over the years. You come across as very honest man seeking nothing but truth. Kyredneck and I are going to make you a preterist (of some sort) before we're done.
Well I have admitted that I attribute some of the prophetic statements in Matthew 24/Luke 21/Mark 13 concerning AD70 are partial fulfillments of His second Coming.

HankD
 
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Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
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I'm not a Zionist K.
Israel is our ally and as such I do support them in my political view just as I would France or Canada.
However they (Israel) are not without infraction of global law and common decency and should be held accountable whenever they cross the line.

Some of their retaliations and aggressiveness against the Palestinians crosses that line IMO.

HankD

So maybe they should be punished.....like taking the 10 Billion we give them away.
 

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
HankD, you are one of the good guys. I've always enjoyed our back and forth over the years. You come across as very honest man seeking nothing but truth. Kyredneck and I are going to make you a preterist (of some sort) before we're done.


Well, ya might succeed with Hank, but not me. I believe preterism is phony as a Ford Corvette, and was invented by the RCC to try to keep the popes from being labeled as the antichrist.

History and reality make lies outta all pret assertions.
 

HankD

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Site Supporter
Well, ya might succeed with Hank, but not me. I believe preterism is phony as a Ford Corvette, and was invented by the RCC to try to keep the popes from being labeled as the antichrist.

History and reality make lies outta all pret assertions.
I never said I am a full preterist.

I do believe that some of Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21 end time prophecies can be applied to His Second Coming (done in advance of His visible bodily return) e.g. the destruction of the temple and the sack of Jerusalem which ended biblical Judaism.

I am still a futurist and as I said my scriptural anchor for the bodily visible return of Jesus Christ is Acts 1:9-12.

Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

- this same Jesus (not Titus), which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner (bodily) as ye have seen (visibly) him go into heaven -

I include verse 12 because we are told that He will return bodily and visibly from whence He left - the Mount of Olives:

Zechariah 14
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Luke 21 prophetic statements of Jesus:

Luke 21:17-25 IMO this section of Scripture has already been fulfilled "the Days of Vengeance" (Many dispensationalists believe this section is yet in the future. I do not).
Luke 21:25-27 yet to be fulfilled.

Luke 21:17-25 (Fulfilled)
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luke 21:25-27 (Not yet fulfilled)

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

The ("and" - kai) of verse 25 is the connective to "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" therefore "the times of the Gentiles" has not come to completion.

HankD
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
[QU22
Ya but even the liberal media doesn't report it as they should.

HankD

Hum, who owns the liberal media?!? :Notworthy

OTE="HankD, post: 2252319, member: 262"]Ya but even the liberal media doesn't report it as they should.

HankD[/QUOTE]
Ya but even the liberal media doesn't report it as they should.

HankD
Ya but even the liberal media doesn't report it as they should.

HankD
Ya but even the liberal media doesn't report it as they should.

HankD
 

Grasshopper

Active Member
Site Supporter
Well, ya might succeed with Hank, but not me. I believe preterism is phony as a Ford Corvette, and was invented by the RCC to try to keep the popes from being labeled as the antichrist.

History and reality make lies outta all pret assertions.

Lots of talk, not much on proof. History is on the side of preterists.
 

John of Japan

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Right Roby, some one said (and I forget who) The best proof that the Second coming will be visible and bodily is that the first coming was.

I believe JoJ said it but with slightly different wording.

HankD
Right. The point I have made against preterism is that every single prophecy of the first Coming was fulfilled literally (Bethlehem, Egypt, etc., etc.), therefore every single prophecy of the Second Coming must be fulfilled literally.
 

HankD

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Right. The point I have made against preterism is that every single prophecy of the first Coming was fulfilled literally (Bethlehem, Egypt, etc., etc.), therefore every single prophecy of the Second Coming must be fulfilled literally.
Thanks John!

HankD
 

HankD

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So Christians are no longer hated for Christ's name's sake? Tell that to Christians living in Iraq, Somalia, North Korea etc.
Yes, they are still hated. I was referring to the sack of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple which ended biblical Judaism. No temple, no levitical priesthood no Judaism.

HankD
 
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