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Timing of the Rapture
- Thread starter StefanM
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According to 2 Peter 3, the Day of the Lord comes when the last, chosen, believer comes to saving faith. Then, at that moment, Christ Jesus returns in great authority to vanquish his enemies and bring his bride unto himself as they rise to meet him in the air and watch him burn the earth to the ground in his wrath against those who refused to repent.
We are presently in the tribulation. We are also in the millennial as Satan has been bound from utterly attacking the church. However, the release of Satan to fully attack the church is soon to occur and believers in the US need to be ready for the coming persecution.
Even so...come Lord Jesus.
We are presently in the tribulation. We are also in the millennial as Satan has been bound from utterly attacking the church. However, the release of Satan to fully attack the church is soon to occur and believers in the US need to be ready for the coming persecution.
Even so...come Lord Jesus.
HatedByAll
Active Member
A friend of mine told me that one of his fellow ministers makes the case for a pre-wrath rapture. Everything considered, this seems to be the position that can be best supported by the Bible.
But, that does not answer the question. Pre-Wrath could be pre-trib, mid-trib, or even a short period before either.
But, that does not answer the question. Pre-Wrath could be pre-trib, mid-trib, or even a short period before either.
37818
Well-Known Member
According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15, ". . . For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. . . ." That is, not in anyway precede the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
“After the tribulation…..” say it right there. Shouldn’t even be a debate.
peace to you
KenH
Well-Known Member
At some point after the last of God's elect have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, Christ will return and replace this present heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth wherein dwells righteousness.
2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
It is important to make the distinction between the rapture and the second coming of Christ. In 1 Thessalonians 5:17 shows that at the rapture believers meet God in the air. At the second coming Jesus will come to the Mt. of Olives, this is supported in passages such as Zechariah 14:4 and Acts 1:11.
For those who hold to the biblical understanding of the rapture it must also be determined at which point the rapture will take place. Scripture is clear that the nature of the tribulation period is the dispensing of the wrath of God. This can be found in passages such as Rev 14:10;19, 15:1;7, 16:1;19, 18:3, 19:15
Add to that scripture is clear that God has determined that we are not made for the wrath of God. 1Thess 5:9
There will be believers in the tribulation period but since they are not of the church and they waited until then to believe this is their result. Rev 7:9-17
For those who hold to the biblical understanding of the rapture it must also be determined at which point the rapture will take place. Scripture is clear that the nature of the tribulation period is the dispensing of the wrath of God. This can be found in passages such as Rev 14:10;19, 15:1;7, 16:1;19, 18:3, 19:15
Add to that scripture is clear that God has determined that we are not made for the wrath of God. 1Thess 5:9
There will be believers in the tribulation period but since they are not of the church and they waited until then to believe this is their result. Rev 7:9-17
The distinction between the rapture and the second coming makes sense to me from a practical perspective. If there is no difference between the two, looking forward to Christ's return seems . . . difficult. If I have the option of living my life and dying normally vs. going through the calamities of the end times, I'll take the "normal" life and death 10 out of 10 times. If, however, I can look forward to the rapture as a deliverance from this fallen world and its troubles, I'm borderline impatient in expectation!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
In Matthew 24-25, Jesus answers His disciples questions about the signs of His 2nd coming and the end of the age.
He very clearly states His coming occurs “after the tribulation”, saying he that endured to the end will be saved. He then gives a very descriptive account of His 2nd coming (as lightning flashing across the sky…. etc)
As part of His 2nd coming, His angels go throughout the world to collect the saints (no distinction between 2nd coming and rapture: they occur at the same time.)
In Matthew 25 (continuing the discourse of His 2nd coming and the end of the age) Jesus gives an extensive account of the great throne judgement where folks are separated, and some cast into eternal torment.
So, from Jesus’s own words we know the 2nd coming and rapture occur together, immediately after the tribulation, and that is immediately followed by the great throne judgment.
peace to you
Nothing there shows they are the same occurrence.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Jesus said He comes in the sky (2nd coming) and His angels collect the elect from the four corners of the earth (rapture) and then comes the great throne judgment.
I don’t understand why this is even debatable, it is so clearly stated by our Lord Himself.
I do understand it destroys dispensational theories that hold to a pre-trib rapture, restoration of national Israel, 1000 year earthly reign etc.
Again, our Lord stated very plainly “AFTER” the tribulation He comes in the sky, collects the saints, great throne judgment.
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
There are numerous verses that specifically state Christians will be persecuted. Jesus said if they persecute Him, they will persecute us. Paul says all who desire to live Godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. When Jesus says “take up your cross and follow Me” He is telling us we should expect persecution.
There is a purpose to the persecution. It will separate wheat/chaff; sheep/goats. Jesus says those who endure (the persecution) until the end will be saved. There will be those that profess to follow Jesus that will betray brothers and sisters in Christ to avoid persecution.
Your statement about having the option to avoid persecution is perfectly fine, nobody wants to endure persecution.
But, when the persecution comes, as Jesus promises us that it will, will folks stand firm in the faith, or will they deny Jesus to avoid persecution.
I suspect all who are expecting a pre-trib rapture are going to be very confused if they are faced with end times tribulation as scripture says they will be.
Me, on the other hand…. should I be wrong and God raptures me out of here before the tribulation I will be shouting “thank you Lord Jesus that I was wrong!!”
peace to you
I agree with you that Christians will be persecuted. The persecution of the tribulation isn't so much my concern; it's the wrath of God. IMO, believers will be raptured prior to the start of the tribulation because they will be spared from God's wrath.
I fully admit that I could be wrong about this. My belief in a pretribulational rapture is anything but firm. If I end up seeing the signs of the tribulation, like the revelation of the man of lawlessness, then I'll know it's time to buckle up.
Stefan, in this present tribulation the wrath of God does not fall on his elect. One of the flaws of dispensationalism is to take the numbers of Revelation as literal numbers, when John never used the numbers literally (nor did Daniel or any of the prophets). The use of the number 144,000 is the fullness of the whole church. We, are all marked by God with the seal of the Holy Spirit. His wrath is not upon us. In this tribulation we receive the wrath of the Dragon and his unholy Trinity of the beast and false prophet. Today, our brothers in China, North Korea, most Muslim countries, are being martyred for their faith by the Beast. We, here in the US, are being seduced by Babylon the great and the false prophet.
The man of lawlessness is right in front of your eyes in the spirit of antichrist that abounds everywhere.
My friend, buckle up and look to the heavens. Our King is returning to judge our enemies with fire and draw His children to Himself.
When you understand Revelation as Jesus revealing what is already happening around us in an ever tightening circle of clarity, you see the great encouragement and call to perseverance that John writes as being incredibly relevant to your daily life.
I recommend Robert Mounce commentary on Revelation and listen to Eric Alexander as well as Voddie Baucham preach on Revelation. You will be blessed and you will rejoice in the great relevance of Revelation for today.
It seems that we are coming at this topic from very different angles. I'm pretty firmly convinced of premillennialism. I'm not saying I can't change my mind, though, so thank you for the suggestions.
Pretribulation Rapture is a certainty. It's quite vain to think otherwise.
The church has It's roughly 2,000 years to share the Gospel.
The Two Witnesses of God have the first 3.5 years of the Tribulation to share the Gospel.
After the Two Witnesses are resurrected and ascend to Heaven, the 144,000 select of Israel’s seed shall share the Gospel for the last 3.5 years of the Tribulation.
At the completion of the 7 years of the Tribulation, the LORD JESUS CHRIST WILL COME with his Bride and set up his Millennial Kingdom.
The church has It's roughly 2,000 years to share the Gospel.
The Two Witnesses of God have the first 3.5 years of the Tribulation to share the Gospel.
After the Two Witnesses are resurrected and ascend to Heaven, the 144,000 select of Israel’s seed shall share the Gospel for the last 3.5 years of the Tribulation.
At the completion of the 7 years of the Tribulation, the LORD JESUS CHRIST WILL COME with his Bride and set up his Millennial Kingdom.
We are interpreting Revelation differently. There is only one place where a millennium is mentioned.
(Revelation 20:1-3)
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.
The 1000 years is not a unique reign of Christ on earth where Jesus then goes back to heaven and Satan is released.
The 1000 years is a limited timeframe where Satan is not allowed to deceive the nations to be fully antichrist. We,the church, are presently in this 1000 year binding of Satan as God protects us in the wilderness.
(Revelation 12:6)
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to care for her for 1,260 days.
In Revelation, John is using apocalyptic language. He is not speaking with exact literal language. Like Matthew, in the 1st chapter of his gospel and Daniel in his 12th chapter, John is choosing numbers that have general meaning, not literal meaning. (To be honest, this was the hardest thing to wrap my mind around when moving away from dispensationalist futurism. Numbers have different meaning in Revelation that express general lengths of time or various perfections. John is employing a numeric technique that is very common to apocalyptic language.
Ultimately the idea that our King would come in full glory, reign for only 1000 years, and then let Satan reek havoc on the earth again seems bizarre and terribly random based on three verses. It doesn't make any sense. But, when we understand that God is protecting his church so it can grow from a mustard seed to a tree by keeping Satan bound for a period of time, then these verses make sense. The early church would have rejoiced in knowing that their endurance was not in vain and that Satan was being bound. We, today, can also rejoice that Satan is presently bound and that we are marked by God.
This is certainly a futurist interpretation of Revelation. It's not at all what John is telling us, but it is a prevalent interpretation among American evangelicals. It came to prominence in the 1830s under John Darby and was promoted by Scofield in his reference Bible. It is an interpretation that has led to cults like the Jehovah's Witness claiming all sorts of return dates that have never happened. Preachers of this view have been given license to make all sorts of false predictions and their followers have just brushed the failures off as a future date rather than stop and wonder if the whole theory might actually be wrong.
After listening to Eric Alexander, John Piper, Voddie Baucham, Alistair Begg, and Sinclair Ferguson preach on Revelation as well as read Mounce's commentary on Revelation, I have concluded that futurism is a terrible method of interpreting Revelation. It creates a twisted image of Revelation that John never intended.
The book of Revelation is a beautiful, circling revelation of God's work from Adam to Jesus second coming. The plagues, the trumpets, the bowls, are all different view points of the same collage. Think of the Revelation as a beautiful tapestry of images that all show you where Jesus is in all of history. It connects the entire Old Testament to the New Testament, showing us why things have happened and why we can endure to the end. It shows us that Jesus has already won. The victory is secure and because of this, we can endure any hardship that comes our way. We rejoice and thank God for such an encouraging letter to us, the Church.
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