Timing of the Rapture

[37818]

From your rant of post#100

. . . We see this as Jacob by the direct sealing of the 144k direct descendants of Jacob in Revelation 7. A distinction between them on the earth, and the church already in heaven.

How?
There is only one second appearing.
Only one first resurrection.

 

[timtofly]

Armageddon = Mount of Assembly. It is in perfect alignment with Zechariah 14.
Revelation...reveals what Zechariah was pointing at. John constantly alludes to the prophets in Revelation, showing you how they connect.

The idea that Armageddon is a valley is biblically unfounded and another cause for misinterpretation by dispensationalists.

We have witnessed our brothers being beheaded in Muslim countries today. We are in the tribulation.

Thankfully one's eschatology doesn't affect one's salvation. I love my dispensationalist brothers even while shaking my head at such poor eschatology.

Joel 3:1-3

"For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink."

Mount Megiddo is the mount of Assembly. The valley is where they all are judged. People have been beheaded since John the Baptist. That is nothing new.

What is different is that the very act of faith unto salvation is the beheading part. Christians are beheaded as martyrs. Those in the last 42 months of the AoD are not saved until they are beheaded. That is their act of obedience to God.

 

[taisto]

Joel 3:1-3

"For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink."

Mount Megiddo is the mount of Assembly. The valley is where they all are judged. People have been beheaded since John the Baptist. That is nothing new.

What is different is that the very act of faith unto salvation is the beheading part. Christians are beheaded as martyrs. Those in the last 42 months of the AoD are not saved until they are beheaded. That is their act of obedience to God.

Wait, what!?
"Faith unto salvation is the beheading part."?
You believe in salvation by works? That salvation doesn't happen unless you remain faithful by being beheaded?
No.
You then go and contradict your assertion by stating that enduring is their act of obedience. I agree with your last statement.

We are in the 1260 days, 42 months of tribulation. The numbers in Revelation are a part of John's use of numerical symbolism.

 

[robycop3]

We are in the great tribulation period.
(1 Thessalonians 5:1-11)
Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters, we don’t really need to write you. For you know quite well that the day of the Lord’s return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night. When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape. But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief. For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night. So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded. Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk. But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation. For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us. Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever. So encourage each other and build each other up, just as you are already doing.

How silly ! Not anything like the great trib right now. Nothing like the plagues of the seals, trumpets, or bowls. Those events will happen in rapid succession, & they've not yet started. That's pretty obvious.

When the day of the Lord comes, we will meet Him as He comes.
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

The Bible, nowhere, teaches a pre-trib rapture. It is a figment of dispensationalist imagination.

I just showed you where it DOES show it. You just don't believe it.

 

[37818]

There is only one second appearing, Hebrews 9:28, Acts of the Apostles 1:11.

There is only one first resurrection Revelation 20:6, John 6:40.

 

[timtofly]

From your rant of post#100

How?
There is only one second appearing.
Only one first resurrection.

The church was redeemed through faith and submission to the Holy Spirit.

The 144k are directly redeemed by being sealed by an angel.

"And I saw another angel (one) ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we (144k angels seal 144k living humans on the earth) have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

This is the firstfruits of redeemed Israel at the Second Coming.

You live over 1900 years after the first coming and still part of that harvest. Would would Jesus have to appear on earth every time a soul is redeemed?

 

[37818]

The church was redeemed through faith and submission to the Holy Spirit.

Not at issue.

The 144k are directly redeemed by being sealed by an angel.

Only unmarried Jewish men from 12 named tribes who are selected believers.

This is the firstfruits of redeemed Israel at the Second Coming.

You live over 1900 years after the first coming and still part of that harvest. Would would Jesus have to appear on earth every time a soul is redeemed?

Again there is only one second appearing, Hebrews 9:28, Acts of the Apostles 1:11.

And there can only be one first resurrection, Revelation 20:6, John 6:40.

 

[John of Japan]

Which Bible Dictionary do you want to accept?

Shall we go with, "An arrangement of things."???

No. That meaning has little to do with dispensationalism. I see you don't know the meaning used by dispensationalists, which is based on the lexical definition of the Greek word οἰκονομία (oikonomia), and how it is used in Scripture. The Greek word is translated "dispensation" four times in the KJV, and translated with a different word in another context 3 times.

You cannot really understand or explain dispensationalism or even oppose it if you don't know what a dispensation is in the theology. And for the record, I've never met a JW that believed anything like dispensationalism except that JW theology includes a form of premillennialism.

 

[Revmitchell]

Maybe you mean 1 Thess. 4;16. But that passage speaks clearly of the Lord's coming at that event (see preceding verses 14-16). Your view would have a second and yet a third coming of the Lord. But this is all one general event. However Dispensationalism contrives an artificial separation between these two aspects, rapture and judgment.

It is amazing that I used to believe in this whole system. It is so plainly contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture. It is also clear that the rapture event happened already in the first century, three and a half years before the AD 70 fall of Jerusalem.

Like I wrote earlier, all Christians at their death will also be changed and meet the Lord. We just won't have the rapture experience that those surviving saints had in AD 66.

\

talk about contrived. Of course the lens in which you view things reaches the hight of that which is contrived. The preterist view is the weakest among them all. (much like the gap theory)

1. There is a difference in the place Christ meets believers

A. At the rapture Christ meets Christians in the air (I Thess 4:16-17).

B. At the second coming Christ meets Christians on the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:2-4)

2. There is a difference in who removes people from the earth.

A. At the rapture Christ gathers believers (I Thess 4:16-17).

B. At the second coming Christ sends his angels to gather the wicked (Matthew 13:41-42; 47-50; 24:37-39; 40-41)

- It is interesting when Christ deals with the wicked he send His angels. When He deals with believers He comes Himself. This is seen when God was dealing with Abraham and lot.

3. There is a difference in who is taken from the earth.

A. In the rapture the Christians are taken from the earth and the wicked are left.

B. At the second coming the wicked are taken from the earth and the believers are left.

(same passages)

 

[John of Japan]

You have actually been quite pompous in many threads. I am surprised that you didn't know a basic component of covenant theology.

Another personal attack? Really?

P. S. And no, that is not a basic component of covenant theology. You're welcome to try to prove it is, but not with your opinion, though you've been giving plenty of those. Give me a quote from covenant theologian.

 

[Deacon]

Timing?

7:06 am ITZ
(6 hours and 66 minutes)

 

[John of Japan]

There is no millennial kingdom on the earth. The passage in Revelations says those that are “beheaded” during the tribulation will be given the honor of reigning with Christ for 1000 years. Jesus reigns in heaven

peace to you

Canadyjd, please give more information about this. Where do you get the idea that only the beheaded will reign with Christ for 1000 years? Of course it is from Rev. 20. I'm asking, why only the beheaded ones? And why in Heaven and not on the earth? What will happen on the earth at that time? Consider that the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones judging Israel.

@taisto. Just to be sure you know what I was talking about that I had never heard of before, it is what canadyjd said about "the beheaded" reigning in Heaven for 1000 years. That is by no means standard covenant theology. I double dog dare you to prove that it is.

 

[timtofly]

Wait, what!?
"Faith unto salvation is the beheading part."?
You believe in salvation by works? That salvation doesn't happen unless you remain faithful by being beheaded?
No.
You then go and contradict your assertion by stating that enduring is their act of obedience. I agree with your last statement.

We are in the 1260 days, 42 months of tribulation. The numbers in Revelation are a part of John's use of numerical symbolism.

I never said those beheaded had to endure. I said their beheading was the act of salvation to avoid the mark. What do you do to avoid the mark, if you think all have been getting the mark since Pentecost? The sooner one is beheaded, the less they have to endure. The less chance they have to receive the mark.

Chopping one's head off is not works. It is physical death. Every one should understand that point. Martyrs are not redeemed because they are martyred.

The 42 months can not even start until after the Second Coming. That certainly has not happened yet.

 

[timtofly]

Not at issue.

Only unmarried Jewish men from 12 named tribes who are selected believers.

Again there is only one second appearing, Hebrews 9:28, Acts of the Apostles 1:11.

And there can only be one first resurrection, Revelation 20:6, John 6:40.

The 144k are not physically dead. Why do they need a resurrection? Do you currently need a resurrection out of Adam's dead corruptible body, or is the rapture just a change of bodies without physically dying?

 

[taisto]

I never said those beheaded had to endure. I said their beheading was the act of salvation to avoid the mark.

Well, that's even more silly since all of us, the fullness of the church (symbolized by the number 144,O00) are already marked.
(Revelation 7 : 3)
“Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants.”

The church is Israel.

What do you do to avoid the mark, if you think all have been getting the mark since Pentecost? The sooner one is beheaded, the less they have to endure. The less chance they have to receive the mark.

What avoidance of a mark? Satan cannot mark God's elect. We are already marked by God. Do you believe in losing your salvation?

Moreso, why would we shirk from the cross?

You make no biblical sense with your statements here.

Chopping one's head off is not works. It is physical death. Every one should understand that point. Martyrs are not redeemed because they are martyred.

We agree, but that is not how it originally came across in your first post.

The 42 months can not even start until after the Second Coming. That certainly has not happened yet.

We are in the 42 months. The second coming is "The Day of the Lord." The day when our King burns His enemies and the Bride comes to live forever in peace and harmony.

Your understanding of Revelation 20 is not in alignment with the rest of the letter.

 

[taisto]

Canadyjd, please give more information about this. Where do you get the idea that only the beheaded will reign with Christ for 1000 years? Of course it is from Rev. 20. I'm asking, why only the beheaded ones? And why in Heaven and not on the earth? What will happen on the earth at that time? Consider that the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones judging Israel.

@taisto. Just to be sure you know what I was talking about that I had never heard of before, it is what canadyjd said about "the beheaded" reigning in Heaven for 1000 years. That is by no means standard covenant theology. I double dog dare you to prove that it is.

Oh Ralphy, your silliness aside:

"Therefore, according to this view Revelation 20:1 is not to be thought of as following in chronological order chapter 19 (which describes the Second Coming of Christ). Rather, it takes us back once again to the beginning of the NT era and recapitulates the entire present age. By doing this the AM is able to interpret (a) the binding of Satan in Rev. 20:1-3 as having occurred during our Lord’s earthly ministry, and (b) the 1,000 year reign (i.e., the millennium) of Rev. 20:4-6 as describing in symbolic language the entire inter-advent age in which we now live. Therefore, the thousand-year period is no literal piece of history; it is a symbolic number coextensive with the history of the church on earth between the resurrection of Christ and his return."
Amillennial view

"We ask next, Who are seated on these thrones? In order to answer this question, we must look ahead in the passage and observe that those whom John saw in this vision are said to have "come to life" (v. 4) and are distinguished from "the rest of the dead" in verse 5. John, in other words, has a vision about certain people who have died, whom he distinguishes from other people who have also died. As we examine verse 4 carefully, it would appear that John sees here two classes of deceased people: a wider group of deceased believers, and a narrower group of those who died as martyrs for the Christian faith.

The first sentence of verse 4 describes believers who have died, whom John sees as seated on thrones, sharing in the reign of Christ and exercising their authority to make judgments. This reigning is a fulfillment of a promise recorded earlier in the book of Revelation, "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne" (3:21, NIV).

As the vision continues, however, John sees a specific group of deceased believers, namely, the martyrs: "Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands." The words "the souls of those who had been beheaded" obviously refer to martyrs—faithful Christians who had given up their lives rather than to deny their Savior. This passage is, in fact, a kind of parallel to an earlier passage in the book, Revelation 6:9, "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne." When John adds that those here portrayed "had not worshiped the beast or its image," he is further describing Christian martyrs. For from Revelation 13:15 we learn that those who refused to worship the image of the beast were to be killed.

The vision, therefore, concerns the souls of all Christians who have died, but in particular the souls of those who paid for their loyalty to Christ by dying martyrs' deaths.456 If one should ask how John could see the souls of those who had died, the answer is, John saw all this in a vision. One could just as well ask, How could John see an angel seizing the devil and binding him for a thousand years with a great chain?"

The Millennium of Revelation - Anthony A. Hoekema

You can go to Monergism.com and read more. Clearly I offended your pride.

 

[37818]

The 144k are not physically dead. Why do they need a resurrection?

You are making stuff up. The living are raptured only after the resurrection of the dead, per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

 

[timtofly]

What avoidance of a mark? Satan cannot mark God's elect. We are already marked by God. Do you believe in losing your salvation?

If the 144k are marked from birth as Israel, why are they only then marked between the 6th and 7th Seal being opened?

Why would I loose something I never provided for myself?

The church is not Israel. Some of Israel over the last 3400 years have been part of the church. The church is by faith, not predestination. Salvation is predestined not a given.

Those beheaded during those 42 months are not a given. Better they accept salvation prior to the Second Coming. Not wait until they have to decide to chop their head off.

 

[timtofly]

You are making stuff up. The living are raptured only after the resurrection of the dead, per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

There are still humans on earth after the Second Coming. Not making stuff up. Which are the dead you refer to? The lost on earth, the lost in sheol?

You may see those in Christ as being dead. I don't accept your view that Jesus is the burial and the death. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life in my view. No one in Christ is dead nor "the dead".

Besides I never claimed the 144k are raptured. They are still on the earth after the Second Coming.

 

[37818]

@timtofly, You really do not understand 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Or 1 John 3:2.

You may see those in Christ as being dead.

Revelation 20:4-6.