Timing of the Rapture

[JD731]

The Millennium of Revelation - Anthony A. Hoekema

You can go to Monergism.com and read more. Clearly I offended your pride.

taisto, Sadly, it is evident from your input on the Revelation that you have not previously prepared yourself to understand the great truths contained therein. If it were possible to magically throw a switch and turn perfect light on in your mind, you would be ashamed of how badly you have missed it's truths.

One can think of the scriptures beginning to end in railroad terminology. It has an initial terminal in Ge 1:1 where the long journey begins and one starts out with only a locomotive. The end of the route is the final terminal where the train is yarded with many freight cars it has picked up at various stations and side tracks along the way and are dispersed to their proper track in the yard. Until this time the cars have been on their way but have not arrived.

This is the same way it is when one gets saved. He leaves the station knowing nothing but is brought along by the source of power, the engine. He picks up the doctrines of faith on the route of life. This reminds me of the testimony of Paul, who said in the letter that he knew all the mysteries of the faith, but said this about the beginning of his journey.

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

He said this later.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; .......

Substitute the freight cars that are picked up along the ways as doctrines of the faith. If one fails to pick up the doctrines as he comes to them, then there will not be a full train at the final terminal and the train will be incomplete, the tracks for those missing doctrines being empty.

I see you have arrived at the final terminal with an incomplete train, several cars on the route being being passed by and left behind.

 

[37818]

There are still humans on earth after the Second Coming. Not making stuff up. Which are the dead you refer to? The lost on earth, the lost in sheol?

You may see those in Christ as being dead. I don't accept your view that Jesus is the burial and the death. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life in my view. No one in Christ is dead nor "the dead".

Besides I never claimed the 144k are raptured. They are still on the earth after the Second Coming.

Revelation 20:4-6. Who are the people Christ and His saints going to rule?

 

[timtofly]

@timtofly, You really do not understand 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Or 1 John 3:2.

Revelation 20:4-6.

Physical death happens when you chop off your head. Is this word "beheaded" supposed to be symbolic for something other than physically removing one's head?

"Beheaded" is pretty specific. The Greek word is only used in this chapter.

If one is not physically dead how does beheaded relate to being spiritually dead?

Amill just assume that every one is beheaded, even those who die in their sleep. It is symbolic of being "in Christ" instead of "in Satan". Those with the mark are "in Satan".

Being a martyr can take many forms, and being beheaded is one of many. John the Baptist was beheaded. But no Amil states John the Baptist is the poster child of these souls in Revelation 20:4. John the Baptist was beheaded prior to their millennium. So why do they not herald him as being resurrected and has reigned with Christ as stated?

"and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:"

Plenty of examples of martyrs prior to the Cross who should be resurrected and currently reigning with Christ, according to Amil.

But they don't interpret Scripture that way. They only change the past, without wanting to incorporate the actual past in their theology.

Revelation 20:4 is not about the church at all, directly. Though the church may be seated on the thrones judging these beheaded souls. This is the last harvest out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh given eternal life. And they arrived at that point by chopping off their head as testimony to Jesus Christ. So in the aftermath of Armageddon, while Satan is bound for a thousand years, these beheaded redeemed are given life and also live and reign on the earth during the same thousand years. That is their redemption, being able to live on earth and not tossed into the LOF.

 

[timtofly]

Revelation 20:4-6. Who are the people Christ and His saints going to rule?

Their offspring. That is the point of subduing the earth as stated in Genesis 1:28

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

That is what humanity has done in sin for 6,000 years. Now they will rule over all their descendants, because no one naturally dies. Those at the start of the Millennial will see that reign until the very end, when sadly those last few generations may rebel.

 

[percho]

Who would really know if he read this text you have written? It is almost senseless.

The day of the Lord is 1000 years long. We do not have to guess about that if we are Bible believers. We are told 6 times in Re 19. Almost all the passages where the Day of the Lord is mentioned is speaking of the beginning of the day. A Jewish day begins in the evening and gives way to light. Then the next evening is the beginning of another day. The days of the Lord are 1000 year days and there are 7 of them equaling one week of one thousand year days. We are living at the end of day 6. The next day is the sabbath day of the Lord. Then, after that, will be the eighth day, called in scripture the "day of God." The number 8 in scripture is the number for new beginnings and the day of God is the 8th day and is an eternal day. It will never end and there will be no night in it.

But Peter is speaking of the end of the day of the Lord. This is a judgement of the great white throne and the fire baptism of the earth and creation where it is purified by fire and made new. Nothing impure will survive to enter into the day of God.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

May the Lord be pleased with this post where I am telling the truth about his work.

You are agreeing with me. The day of the Lord is 1000 years from the resurrection of those who are Christ's in the manner spoken in 1 Thes 4:13-18 until the rest of the dead are raised ie the last enemy to be destroyed, followed with the lake of fire and then the kingdom is delivered to the Father.

 

[taisto]

Amill just assume that every one is beheaded, even those who die in their sleep.

No, not even close.

It is symbolic of being "in Christ" instead of "in Satan". Those with the mark are "in Satan".

(Revelation 7:3)
“Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants.”

We believers have the mark of God.

Revelation 20:4 is not about the church at all, directly. Though the church may be seated on the thrones judging these beheaded souls. This is the last harvest out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh given eternal life. And they arrived at that point by chopping off their head as testimony to Jesus Christ. So in the aftermath of Armageddon, while Satan is bound for a thousand years, these beheaded redeemed are given life and also live and reign on the earth during the same thousand years. That is their redemption, being able to live on earth and not tossed into the LOF.

The entire letter of Revelation is about Christ Jesus and his chosen people, the Church, the Israel of God.

We shall live eternally with Christ on the renewed earth as the new Garden.

Revelation is entirely for us and our great encouragement.

 

[kyredneck]

The passage in Revelations says those that are “beheaded” during the tribulation

The tribulation was ongoing when John penned the book:

9 I John, your brother and partaker with you in tribulation and kingdom and patience which are in Jesus, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Rev 1

It's done already, ancient history:

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

22For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gahered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

 

[John of Japan]

"Therefore, according to this view Revelation 20:1 is not to be thought of as following in chronological order chapter 19 (which describes the Second Coming of Christ). Rather, it takes us back once again to the beginning of the NT era and recapitulates the entire present age. By doing this the AM is able to interpret (a) the binding of Satan in Rev. 20:1-3 as having occurred during our Lord’s earthly ministry, and (b) the 1,000 year reign (i.e., the millennium) of Rev. 20:4-6 as describing in symbolic language the entire inter-advent age in which we now live. Therefore, the thousand-year period is no literal piece of history; it is a symbolic number coextensive with the history of the church on earth between the resurrection of Christ and his return."
Amillennial view

This article further says, "As to the precise character of this spiritual rule of Christ, AMs differ." Thus, this doctrine is not a mainstay of the amil position, as you say.

"We ask next, Who are seated on these thrones? In order to answer this question, we must look ahead in the passage and observe that those whom John saw in this vision are said to have "come to life" (v. 4) and are distinguished from "the rest of the dead" in verse 5. John, in other words, has a vision about certain people who have died, whom he distinguishes from other people who have also died. As we examine verse 4 carefully, it would appear that John sees here two classes of deceased people: a wider group of deceased believers, and a narrower group of those who died as martyrs for the Christian faith.

The first sentence of verse 4 describes believers who have died, whom John sees as seated on thrones, sharing in the reign of Christ and exercising their authority to make judgments. This reigning is a fulfillment of a promise recorded earlier in the book of Revelation, "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne" (3:21, NIV).

As the vision continues, however, John sees a specific group of deceased believers, namely, the martyrs: "Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands." The words "the souls of those who had been beheaded" obviously refer to martyrs—faithful Christians who had given up their lives rather than to deny their Savior. This passage is, in fact, a kind of parallel to an earlier passage in the book, Revelation 6:9, "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne." When John adds that those here portrayed "had not worshiped the beast or its image," he is further describing Christian martyrs. For from Revelation 13:15 we learn that those who refused to worship the image of the beast were to be killed.

The vision, therefore, concerns the souls of all Christians who have died, but in particular the souls of those who paid for their loyalty to Christ by dying martyrs' deaths.456 If one should ask how John could see the souls of those who had died, the answer is, John saw all this in a vision. One could just as well ask, How could John see an angel seizing the devil and binding him for a thousand years with a great chain?"

The Millennium of Revelation - Anthony A. Hoekema

Great. So Hoekema holds to it. One author does not make this doctrine a mainstay of amil theology.

Furthermore, there are many theological liberals who are amil, and they certainly would not hold to Christ reigning in any way, shape, or form. There are also many Catholic amillennialists who would deny the doctrine. So again, the doctrine in question is not a mainstay of amillennialism. You are projecting your own beliefs on the movement as a whole.

"Liberal amillennialism denies such doctrines as resurrection, judgment, the second advent, eternal punishment, and related subjects. Roman amillennialism evolved the system of purgatory, limbo, and such non-Biblical doctrines, which have become a part of their system" (J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come, pp. 389-390).

I feel sorry for you, that you hold a position so easily taken by ungodly people such as liberals and Catholics.

You can go to Monergism.com and read more. Clearly I offended your pride.

Not in the slightest.

 

[John of Japan]

For taisto and others completely ignorant of dispensationalism, here are some definitions of the word "dispensation" (which in the theology is not "an orderly arrangement" or a period of time):

The Greek word is oikonomia (οἰκονομία), which occurs three times as “stewardship” in Luke 16:1-4. (The parable continues to v. 10.) Thus, the Greek word occurs a total of seven times in the New Testament.

Friberg’s lexicon defines this word thus: “(1) literally, relating to the task of an οἰκονόμος (steward) in household administration stewardship, management (LU 16.2); (2) figuratively; (a) of the apostolic office in God's redemptive work task, responsibility, trusteeship (CO 1.25); (b) of God's arrangements for mankind's redemption plan, arrangement, purpose (EP 3.9); 1T 1.4 may mean (divine) training, but (divine) plan is also possible.” (Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg and Neva Miller, Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Grand Rapids: Baker, 2000, 279.)

Chafer gives a good definition: “A dispensation is a specific, divine economy, a commitment from God to man of a responsibility to discharge that which God has appointed him.” (Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. VII. Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1948, 122.)

I'll write later on what the rapture means in light of these meanings.

 

[taisto]

For taisto and others completely ignorant of dispensationalism, here are some definitions of the word "dispensation" (which in the theology is not "an orderly arrangement" or a period of time):

The Greek word is oikonomia (οἰκονομία), which occurs three times as “stewardship” in Luke 16:1-4. (The parable continues to v. 10.) Thus, the Greek word occurs a total of seven times in the New Testament.

Friberg’s lexicon defines this word thus: “(1) literally, relating to the task of an οἰκονόμος (steward) in household administration stewardship, management (LU 16.2); (2) figuratively; (a) of the apostolic office in God's redemptive work task, responsibility, trusteeship (CO 1.25); (b) of God's arrangements for mankind's redemption plan, arrangement, purpose (EP 3.9); 1T 1.4 may mean (divine) training, but (divine) plan is also possible.” (Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg and Neva Miller, Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Grand Rapids: Baker, 2000, 279.)

Chafer gives a good definition: “A dispensation is a specific, divine economy, a commitment from God to man of a responsibility to discharge that which God has appointed him.” (Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. VII. Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1948, 122.)

I'll write later on what the rapture means in light of these meanings.

I have highlighted my disagreement.
Chafer, and all dispensationalists use a man-made economy created by their own bias, not by God, to determine dispensations. They take a word, used in the Bible, and then they manufacture their own "dispensations" while telling others not to question them.

Even now you use a standard dismissal of opponents by simply saying they are "completely ignorant" as the guise for never questioning their man-made divisions of the Bible.

While I respect Chafer, his eschatology is terrible, as is anyone's who follow his eschatology.

 

[taisto]

This article further says, "As to the precise character of this spiritual rule of Christ, AMs differ." Thus, this doctrine is not a mainstay of the amil position, as you say.


Great. So Hoekema holds to it. One author does not make this doctrine a mainstay of amil theology.

Furthermore, there are many theological liberals who are amil, and they certainly would not hold to Christ reigning in any way, shape, or form. There are also many Catholic amillennialists who would deny the doctrine. So again, the doctrine in question is not a mainstay of amillennialism. You are projecting your own beliefs on the movement as a whole.

"Liberal amillennialism denies such doctrines as resurrection, judgment, the second advent, eternal punishment, and related subjects. Roman amillennialism evolved the system of purgatory, limbo, and such non-Biblical doctrines, which have become a part of their system" (J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come, pp. 389-390).

I feel sorry for you, that you hold a position so easily taken by ungodly people such as liberals and Catholics.

Not in the slightest.

Have you taken any of us Baptists on the board to be liberals who deny the deity of Christ and His Sovereignty?

I suggest you listen to Voddie Baucham, John Piper, Eric Alexander, Sinclair Ferguson, and RC Sproul to help you out.

 

[John of Japan]

Have you taken any of us Baptists on the board to be liberals who deny the deity of Christ and His Sovereignty?

I suggest you listen to Voddie Baucham, John Piper, Eric Alexander, Sinclair Ferguson, and RC Sproul to help you out.

It does not matter in the slightest what I think of amil people on the BB, or what modern evangelicals are amil. What I stated is a fact of history: many liberals and Catholics are amil. Period.

You may not like this, but you can't change history.

What this very obviously means is that one does not have to be a Bible believing Christian to embrace amillennialism. You may not like that, but it's true. On the other hand, there are no liberal or Catholic writers or scholars who accept dispensationalism. Not a single one! One has to interpret the Bible literally and believe it is God's Word in order to become a dispensationalist. If you dispute this, please find a liberal or Catholic scholar who is a dispensationalist. I'll be waiting.

 

[John of Japan]

I have highlighted my disagreement.
Chafer, and all dispensationalists use a man-made economy created by their own bias, not by God, to determine dispensations. They take a word, used in the Bible, and then they manufacture their own "dispensations" while telling others not to question them.

Even now you use a standard dismissal of opponents by simply saying they are "completely ignorant" as the guise for never questioning their man-made divisions of the Bible.

Mainly you, since you could not give the meaning in dispensationalism of the term "dispensation." (Which, by the way, is the meaning of the word in Eph. 1:10.)

While I respect Chafer, his eschatology is terrible, as is anyone's who follow his eschatology.

And how many decades has it been since you read Chafer? In Ryrie's taxonomy, what kind of dispensationalist was he?

 

[canadyjd]

Canadyjd, please give more information about this. Where do you get the idea that only the beheaded will reign with Christ for 1000 years? Of course it is from Rev. 20. I'm asking, why only the beheaded ones? And why in Heaven and not on the earth? What will happen on the earth at that time?

First, I want to address something you said to another poster. I am a Bible believing Christian and I believe scripture teaches a-mil. I don’t know what Catholics believe, or others particularly, I just know what I believe scripture teaches.

I believe scripture in the context it was written. If it is supposed to be taken literally, I take it literally. If not, then I don’t take it literally.

The point of Revelation 20, concerning the 1000 year reign with Christ is symbolic. It is saying those who have stood firm in the faith during the tribulation (beheaded) will be rewarded. Christ reigns in heaven.

The number 1000 is often used symbolically among the Hebrew people (Samson slew 1000 with jawbone of an ass: Saul slew 1000’s but David slew 10,000’s) The number 1000 is simply a very large number difficult to count, 10,000 is a indefinite number too large to count; according to my Hebrew prof.

Much of Revelation is symbolic, obviously. According to my Greek prof; John does not write in chronological order. He writes in repeated themes. Here is a brief summary as I see it.

The setting for the scene in heaven is the great throne judgment. During a Roman trial, there were two types of scrolls that had 7 seals; Death penalty cases and Wills. Only certain people were authorized to break the seals.

Each seal had a brief summary that describes the contents of the seal. Everything that is revealed when the seals are broken has already occurred… it is The Great Throne Judgment. God is judging what is contained in the scrolls…. A record of the history of God’s dealings with mankind, of Satan and of the Redemption brought by our Lord Jesus.

The final verdict is delivered. Christ reigns in heaven, His people have joy and peace. All others are thrown into eternal punishment with Satan and his demons.

That’s how I see it. I know many will disagree.

peace to you

 

[37818]

The point of Revelation 20, concerning the 1000 year reign with Christ is symbolic. It is saying those who have stood firm in the faith during the tribulation (beheaded) will be rewarded. Christ reigns in heaven.

How do you get the 1000 year reign with Christ is symbolic?

How do you get "in heaven?"

 

[canadyjd]

How do you get the 1000 year reign with Christ is symbolic?

How do you get "in heaven?"

I explained all of that in post#134.

peace to you

 

[taisto]

Mainly you, since you could not give the meaning in dispensationalism of the term "dispensation." (Which, by the way, is the meaning of the word in Eph. 1:10.)


And how many decades has it been since you read Chafer? In Ryrie's taxonomy, what kind of dispensationalist was he?

I provided you with the meaning. Perhaps you missed that post.

Second, what I receive from this is your disdain for anyone who disagrees with your specific view of dispensationalism. You so narrow the subject that you even have disdain for those who call themselves Progressive Dispensationalist's, essentially calling them heretics.
Mostly, I see a person who has bathed himself in dispensationalism for his career and now cannot comprehend any other, legitimate, way of interpreting eschatology.
Meanwhile, here we are, people like myself, @canadyjd, and others who have learned dispensationalism and found it to be very poor eschatology that butchers Revelation like a 5 year old cutting up a turkey for Thanksgiving. The turkey is still edible, but it's been hacked and sliced in ways that it was never meant to be cut.

If that's your preference, no one will stop you. But, for a number of us here, dispensationalism (futurism)misses the mark while amillenialism provides a beautiful and very practical understanding to the whole of the Bible.

Best wishes to you John.

 

[37818]

I explained all of that in post#134.

peace to you

z
The Hebrew number 1000 means a thousand, unless it is used to refer to a herd of animals or cammand of men under one leader.

A 1000 yrars is 1000 years. 1000 days are a 1000 days.

The setting for the scene in heaven is the great throne judgment.

You collapsed events. The 1000 years are clearly on earth. Revelation 20:7-9,
". . . And when the thousand years have expired, Satan shall be loosed from his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and encompassed the camp of the saints, . . ."

 

[taisto]

z
The Hebrew number 1000 means a thousand, unless it is used to refer to a herd of animals or cammand of men under one leader.

A 1000 yrars is 1000 years. 1000 days are a 1000 days.


You collapsed events. The 1000 years are clearly on earth. Revelation 20:7-9,
". . . And when the thousand years have expired, Satan shall be loosed from his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and encompassed the camp of the saints, . . ."

So, God only owns the cattle on 1000 hills, not 999 or 1001. Is that correct?
(Psalm 50:10)
For all the animals of the forest are mine, and I own the cattle on a thousand hills.

Oh, that's right, the exception is to cattle...

The number, 1000,is symbolic in Revelation as is all the other numbers used in Revelation.

Like Matthew 1, John employs "gematria" as a numerical principle.

 

[37818]

So, God only owns the cattle on 1000 hills, . . .

More than 10,000 hllls still has a 1000 hills. ". . . fell in one day three and twenty thousand. . . .". Twenty four thousand still died. 1 Corinthians 10:8, Numbers 25:9.