Timing of the Rapture

[John of Japan]

Thanks for sharing.

I haven't addressed these subjects much in the thread because I feel to go too far in that direction would sidetrack the thread, which has an OP about Progressive Dispensationalism.

Oops. The OP is about the timing of the Rapture, and the other thread was about Progressive Dispensationalism.

 

[canadyjd]

Why would God being born in human flesh make sense, but actually ruling on earth not make sense?

The whole purpose of coming in physical flesh was to be the "Prince to come" to also reign in the flesh.

If one cannot except this future reign on earth, why accept that Jesus was ever on the earth?

They in the first century could have made it all up. Who could prove otherwise?

It seems straightforward that if the first coming was physical to the earth, the Second Coming would also be physical, and this time Israel would have their "Prince to come" for a thousand years.

Because Jesus coming in the flesh is supported by scripture.

Jesus reigning for 1000 years in earth, after the 2nd coming, is contrary to the teaching of our Lord in Matthew 24 and 25 where our Lord very clearly states He comes “after the tribulation”, His angels gather His elect (rapture) and then comes the great throne judgment.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Oops. The OP is about the timing of the Rapture, and the other thread was about Progressive Dispensationalism.

You know how much I appreciate your knowledge of scripture and biblical Greek.

That is why I keep asking you to address Matthew 24 and 25.

It seems so clear to me. Jesus is answering the question from his disciples (which is the question of the OP) about His 2nd coming and the end of the age.

Our Lord says His coming is “after the tribulation” which He just described as never before seen nor will be seen again. This is, without doubt “The Great Tribulation”: He says He comes in the sky (not from the earth) with the sound of the trumpet (2nd coming): He says His angels will collect the elect from the earth (rapture): and then in Matthew 25 He describes the Great Throne judgment.

I just see no way to reconcile the words of our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 and 25 with a pre-trib rapture or a 1000 year reign on the earth.

If you can reconcile these passages I will read what you say with an open mind. I can be convinced by scripture in context.

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

YHe says His angels will collect the elect from the earth (rapture): and then in Matthew 25 He describes the Great Throne judgment.

Your error is to assume that collecting the elect means a rapture. The Great White Throne Judgement is here on earth.

 

[canadyjd]

Your error is to assume that collecting the elect means a rapture. The Great White Throne Judgement is here on earth.

Not according to the book of Revelation.

Jesus said His coming is “after the tribulation”. Does He have “two” 2nd comings? The first “2nd coming” to establish the 1000 reign on earth. He conducts the Great throne judgment in earth. Then He goes back into heaven. There is a 2nd “Great Tribulation” followed by a 2nd “2nd coming”?

I simply cannot reconcile the words of our Lord in Matthew 24 and 25 with a pre-tribulation rapture and 1000 year earthly reign.

I haven’t seen anyone that holds those beliefs attempt to reconcile these passages other than to claim I’m in error to believe “collect the saints” is the same as the rapture.

I do appreciate your comments though.

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

Jesus said His coming is “after the tribulation”. Does He have “two” 2nd comings? The first “2nd coming” to establish the 1000 reign on earth. He conducts the Great throne judgment in earth. Then He goes back into heaven. There is a 2nd “Great Tribulation” followed by a 2nd “2nd coming”?

Who believes this?

 

[37818]

I agree. And here is a parallel. Some would say that the 7 mountains of Revelation 17:9 are symbolic. However, any first century dweller of the Roman Empire would immediately recognize this as literal reference to the famous Seven Hills of Rome: Aventine, Caelian, Capitoline, Esquiline, Palatine, Quirinal, and Viminal. So the numbers of Revelation are usually literal.

Well, that is an interpertation. I understand them to be known kingdoms. 5 are fallen kingdoms, the Roman goverment is (was), and one is yet to come. The 10 toes in Daniel's prophecy.

 

[John of Japan]

Not according to the book of Revelation.

Jesus said His coming is “after the tribulation”. Does He have “two” 2nd comings? The first “2nd coming” to establish the 1000 reign on earth. He conducts the Great throne judgment in earth. Then He goes back into heaven. There is a 2nd “Great Tribulation” followed by a 2nd “2nd coming”?

I simply cannot reconcile the words of our Lord in Matthew 24 and 25 with a pre-tribulation rapture and 1000 year earthly reign.

I haven’t seen anyone that holds those beliefs attempt to reconcile these passages other than to claim I’m in error to believe “collect the saints” is the same as the rapture.

I do appreciate your comments though.

peace to you

I just have a few minutes. I believe I did tell you once in the thread that I believe the Olivet Discourse is about the 2nd coming in power and glory. And the Rapture is not in view in the discourse. It is not taught there. The word "after" in Greek means just what it does in English, so what I call the "Second Coming in Power and Glory" is after the tribulation.

Note that the Second Coming will be seen by all (Matt. 24:30). The Rapture will not be. In the Second Coming, Christ comes all the way to the earth, landing on the Mount of Olives. He will not come to earth in the Rapture, but will stop "in the clouds," and take us up to Heaven with him.

If you can tell me specifically what verses or words you want me to look up in Greek in the Olivet Discourse, I'd be happy to.

 

[canadyjd]

Who believes this?

I hope no one believes it. It is completely unbiblical.

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

I hope no one believes it. It is completely unbiblical.

peace to you

Well I never made the claim and I do not hold to it. Your posting of it is the first I have ever heard of it and I study these things regularly.

 

[canadyjd]

I just have a few minutes. I believe I did tell you once in the thread that I believe the Olivet Discourse is about the 2nd coming in power and glory. And the Rapture is not in view in the discourse. It is not taught there. The word "after" in Greek means just what it does in English, so what I call the "Second Coming in Power and Glory" is after the tribulation.

Note that the Second Coming will be seen by all (Matt. 24:30). The Rapture will not be. In the Second Coming, Christ comes all the way to the earth, landing on the Mount of Olives. He will not come to earth in the Rapture, but will stop "in the clouds," and take us up to Heaven with him.

If you can tell me specifically what verses or words you want me to look up in Greek in the Olivet Discourse, I'd be happy to.

Ok, I have heard this theory before. If I understand it correctly, Christ only comes part way to the earth, the saints are raptured and He goes back into heaven with the saints.

Somehow, I’m guessing, this event doesn’t count as a 2nd coming, even though the passage in Thessalonians (if I remember correctly) includes the Trumpet or the shout of an arch Angel (something that announces the event) It is saying there are two “2nd” comings of Jesus, He just doesn’t come all the way to the earth on the first 2nd coming.

That doesn’t reconcile well with the Matthew 24 and 25 passages, imo. It doesn’t speak of a 1000 year reign on the earth.

Peace to you

 

[taisto]

Nothing in the context of Revelation 20 requires it not to be understood literally.

All of the letter shows you that it's not to be taken literally.
Look at Revelation 1:11-19. Notice that John is to write what he sees. Jesus tells us from the start that this is a picture book, a tapestry of events that have happened, are happening, and will happen.

It said, “Write in a book everything you see, and send it to the seven churches in the cities of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.” When I turned to see who was speaking to me, I saw seven gold lampstands. And standing in the middle of the lampstands was someone like the Son of Man. He was wearing a long robe with a gold sash across his chest. His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And his eyes were like flames of fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and his voice thundered like mighty ocean waves. He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp two-edged sword came from his mouth. And his face was like the sun in all its brilliance. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave. “Write down what you have seen—both the things that are now happening and the things that will happen.

 

[Revmitchell]

It is saying there are two “2nd” comings of Jesus, He just doesn’t come all the way to the earth on the first 2nd coming.

That is your characterization but it fails to understand the purpose of the second coming. It appears to only be considering the "trip" if you will as Jesus making two trips. That does not have to be the standard for determining what is a second coming nor does it line up with scripture and its purposes.

That doesn’t reconcile well with the Matthew 24 and 25 passages, imo. It doesn’t speak of a 1000 year reign on the earth.

Peace to you

Whether or not it does or not is not evidence of a lack of one. What is clear is that it is mentioned in scripture. Further, revelation has always been progressive in nature. The Matthew passages do not appear to be intended to be exhaustive. The fact that it is not mentioned until Revelation does not provide evidence that it doesn't exist. There are a great many things in Revelation that are progressively made clear. There is even part of Revelation prophecy that is expressed to John but he was told to not reveal it.

 

[canadyjd]

That is your characterization but it fails to understand the purpose of the second coming. It appears to only be considering the "trip" if you will as Jesus making two trips. That does not have to be the standard for determining what is a second coming nor does it line up with scripture and its purposes.

Whether or not it does or not is not evidence of a lack of one. What is clear is that it is mentioned in scripture. Further, revelation has always been progressive in nature. The Matthew passages do not appear to be intended to be exhaustive. The fact that it is not mentioned until Revelation does not provide evidence that it doesn't exist. There are a great many things in Revelation that are progressively made clear. There is even part of Revelation prophecy that is expressed to John but he was told to not reveal it.

Well, anytime our Lord Jesus comes out of heaven to the earth (whether in the sky or on the earth) it is much more significant than a “trip”.

Saying there is “progressive revelation” doesn’t reconcile the passages in Matthew 25 and 25.

Jesus is specifically answering the question concerning His return and the end of the age.

He says His return (2nd coming) is “after the tribulation” which He had just described as tribulation never before seen and never will be seen again.

He says He comes with the sound of the trumpet, the angels collect the saints and then comes the Great Throne Judgment”

He doesn’t mention a 1000 year reign on earth. In fact, He often said His kingdom is in heaven.

peace to you

 

[37818]

Jesus said His coming is “after the tribulation”. Does He have “two” 2nd comings? The first “2nd coming” to establish the 1000 reign on earth. He conducts the Great throne judgment in earth. Then He goes back into heaven. There is a 2nd “Great Tribulation” followed by a 2nd “2nd coming”?

No. There can only be one second appearing. Acts of the Apostles 1:11, Hebrews 9:28, Revelation 1:7, etc.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, anytime our Lord Jesus comes out of heaven to the earth (whether in the sky or on the earth) it is much more significant than a “trip”.

Saying there is “progressive revelation” doesn’t reconcile the passages in Matthew 25 and 25.

Jesus is specifically answering the question concerning His return and the end of the age.

He says His return (2nd coming) is “after the tribulation” which He had just described as tribulation never before seen and never will be seen again.

He says He comes with the sound of the trumpet, the angels collect the saints and then comes the Great Throne Judgment”

He doesn’t mention a 1000 year reign on earth. In fact, He often said His kingdom is in heaven.

peace to you

Well you and I agree that the second coming is after the Trib.

the covenant theology error is it wants do deny that these things can be both in heave and a future earthly Kingdom under His rule.

 

[37818]

All of the letter shows you that it's not to be taken literally.

That is what you fell you need to believe. I do not. In trying to understand the pre-trib view, I found it not to be Biblical. What is Biblical is the pre-wrath teaching.

All of the letter shows you that it's not to be taken literally.
Look at Revelation 1:11-19. Notice that John is to write what he sees. Jesus tells us from the start that this is a picture book, a tapestry of events that have happened, are happening, and will happen.

It said, “Write in a book everything you see, and send it to the seven churches in the cities of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.” When I turned to see who was speaking to me, I saw seven gold lampstands. And standing in the middle of the lampstands was someone like the Son of Man. He was wearing a long robe with a gold sash across his chest. His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And his eyes were like flames of fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and his voice thundered like mighty ocean waves. He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp two-edged sword came from his mouth. And his face was like the sun in all its brilliance. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave. “Write down what you have seen—both the things that are now happening and the things that will happen.

That symbolism is explained. The seven thunders are not.

We can discuss each disagreement one at a time. The simple stuff is really simple. zI came to my post-trib pre-wrath pre-milleniumal view in 1969. And it really comes together nicely.

 

[taisto]

That is what you fell you need to believe. I do not. In trying to understand the pre-trib view, I found it not to be Biblical. What is Biblical is the pre-wrath teaching.

That symbolism is explained. The seven thunders are not.

We can discuss each disagreement one at a time. The simple stuff is really simple. zI came to my post-trib pre-wrath pre-milleniumal view in 1969. And it really comes together nicely.

For clarification, we both agree that a pre-trib rapture is never taught in the Bible. Is that correct?

You believe in a post trib rapture, followed by a literal 1000 year reign by Christ, in which time he abandons the earth again to the evil mechanisms of Satan, only to return another time to reign forever.
Is that an accurate understanding of what you believe Revelation 20 is expressing?

 

[percho]

The context determines the meaning. The Hebrew number system consisted of their letters in the alphabet, not the numbers we use today.

The word for “1000” was often used symbolically in the Hebrew language.

I believe its use in Revelation 20 is symbolic, but that really doesn’t make a difference. The focus of the “reigning” was on the martyrs reigning with Christ, not on Jesus reigning in the earth.

Jesus reigns in heaven. The reward for their faithfulness unto death is reigning with Christ as He reigns in heaven. That is what Revelation 20 says.

peace to you

he shall be great, and Son of the Highest he shall be called, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father,

Where was the above throne?

I just have a few minutes. I believe I did tell you once in the thread that I believe the Olivet Discourse is about the 2nd coming in power and glory. And the Rapture is not in view in the discourse. It is not taught there. The word "after" in Greek means just what it does in English, so what I call the "Second Coming in Power and Glory" is after the tribulation.

Note that the Second Coming will be seen by all (Matt. 24:30). The Rapture will not be. In the Second Coming, Christ comes all the way to the earth, landing on the Mount of Olives. He will not come to earth in the Rapture, but will stop "in the clouds," and take us up to Heaven with him.

If you can tell me specifically what verses or words you want me to look up in Greek in the Olivet Discourse, I'd be happy to.

Where is it written that he takes us to heaven with him?

 

[timtofly]

The second coming is in the flesh. We see it on grand display in Revelation 21 as we see the Bride of Christ come down to live eternally with our King.

The thing that seems to trip you up is your insistence on a literal 1000 year reign, followed by a second demonic action, after Jesus makes life perfect on earth. You won't acknowledge that Satan's binding is now happening so the church can continue to grow and expand. There will soon come a time where the church will be attacked on a worldwide scale. When you see that happen, know that Satan is again unbound and knows that the return of our King is near.

That is not the point, but ok?