freeatlast
New Member
Many people with the Spirit give grudgingly because of the tithe.
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Tithing and Giving
- Thread starter gb93433
- Start date
being now under grace, not the administration of the law, Christians are to give proportionally, 'as blessed to by God", to give on a regular basis, to give it to the local church, and than as offerings to other ministries/others as led to by God!
the tithe of 10 % is a good reference point for NT believer, as IF God commanded that in OT times, how can we not give even more if under the newer more surer Covenant now?
That is what I teach but wondered if there is a link between the OT tithe and NT giving such as what they have in common. I would think they what have in common is its spirit. There is both the words of the Law and the spirit of the Law. Jesus addressed the spirit of the law in the Sermon On The Mount when he said that He came not to abolish ("misinterpret" in rabbi language) but to fulfill the Law.
Tom Butler
New Member
Maybe somebody can explain this verse.
Luke 11:42, Jesus speaking:
Did not Jesus endorse tithing here?
Luke wrote this Gospel several years later. Why didn't he insert a teaching that tithing no longer applies?
In I Cor 16:2 Paul wrote to the Corinthians that they should give "as the Lord as prospered you." Paul surely passed up an opportunity to say that tithing is no longer commanded. Why didn't he say, "proportional giving, but not necessarily a tenth."?
Since Paul claimed to have been personally taught by Jesus, did he just forget that Jesus told him the principle of the tithe was no longer in effect?
Jesus told the Pharisees they should tithe. Paul described himself as a "Pharisee of the Pharisees." If tithing is not a NT principle, then doesn't "as God as prospered you" mean whatever we want it to mean?
I know, arguments from silence don't convince many, but Jesus was not silent about the tithe.
Luke 11:42, Jesus speaking:
Did not Jesus endorse tithing here?
Luke wrote this Gospel several years later. Why didn't he insert a teaching that tithing no longer applies?
In I Cor 16:2 Paul wrote to the Corinthians that they should give "as the Lord as prospered you." Paul surely passed up an opportunity to say that tithing is no longer commanded. Why didn't he say, "proportional giving, but not necessarily a tenth."?
Since Paul claimed to have been personally taught by Jesus, did he just forget that Jesus told him the principle of the tithe was no longer in effect?
Jesus told the Pharisees they should tithe. Paul described himself as a "Pharisee of the Pharisees." If tithing is not a NT principle, then doesn't "as God as prospered you" mean whatever we want it to mean?
I know, arguments from silence don't convince many, but Jesus was not silent about the tithe.
Wasn't Jesus addressing those under the law still? In context does the "you tithe" apply to NT believers?
freeatlast
New Member
Tom He was speaking to OT people. The law was still in effect for the tithe. That passage does not apply to the church since the church was not born yet. Now that He has died and risen we are under the NT teachings and the giving the church is to do is spelled out in later scripture and it has no relationship with the tithe. As to why Paul did not say the tithe ended there was no need. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles and they knew nothing of the tithe. For him to say to the gentiles that the tithe is not more who knew nothing about the tithe would be like saying to someone today that they no longer have to separate their linen because it was sin under the law to wear mixed linen. It would be wasted words to mention it.
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I have a question about "tithing on the gross."
My wife and I are retired and living on that which was stored both before and after the gross on years of income.
We are in no way rich in this world, but have certainly been greatly blessed considering we came from extremely humble beginning, too.
So, in your thinking, do we "tithe" off the increase (the interest gain) or do we tithe off what we already have given a tithe for?
That is an excellent question. I pondered the same question before I retired and came to the following conclusion for myself.
I tithe the amount that goes from a tax deferred account to a taxable account [the account my debit cards and checks come from]. I do not tithe the amount in the tax deferred account as the balance may decrease in value with the ups and down of both the stock market and interest rates.
I guess the simple answer is I tithe that which is comes to me and is available for me to use.
What are you thoughts.
Tom Butler
New Member
Web, I think the answer to my questions turn on the answer to your questions. There is no question that tithing is an OT principle. The question is whether Jesus' endorsement of the tithe is an argument for carrying it over from the OT to the NT. Your answer is, of course, no. Mine is yes.
I do have a sense that even those who believe tithing is not a NT principle still use 10% as a guide. They just don't see it as a mandate.
Because my bride and I have never tithed, but historically gave out of the joy of being blessed enough to give, it hasn't been an issue in our living.
I suppose that had we a mind to tithe we would have to work through such issues as:
If we tithed above what the gross income was, is that credited toward earnings of retirement benefits?
Do we include the elderly medical benefits, the elderly discounts and such things as increase and tithe off that as increase?
Also, is it all mental gymnastics or is there actual spiritual benefits to be regarded in tithing in comparison to giving on of the increase?
I do believe that the Lord would ask us to use that percentage as a "reference" point, as IF they were required by him uber Old Covenant, how much more so should we be willing to give back to Him now, as we are under a new surer Covenant!
difference is the believers in the OT dispensation required to give as obligation, we are permitted to give back to the Lord from a willing heart!
I can only speak for myself. I thtie gross to my church. I do give to other charities. I do not know how to factor in medical benefits ... we do pay for Medicare and Medi-gap insurance, so I am not sure how to view that as other than an expense.
I will have to ponder this area.
I am at work so I don't have the text in front of me but as I recall Deuteronomy also said if the distance is too far to bring your tithe then sell it and bring the money and buy whatever your heart desires and then eat it with the whole household....
Then in the third year take it to the storehouse for the widows, Levites, sojourners, etc...
Obviously a heavily paraphrased version and from memory. The point is it is a much bigger issue than the Malachi passage. And if we are to be put back under the law for this issue alone, then we need accountants to assist our preachers and laity in explaining how to determine what an increase is. For that matter any person with a solid business degree should be able to assist with the increase question.
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Tom Butler
New Member
This is a good example of "where you start determines where you come out."
I'm assuming that since you hold that the church was not yet born, you hold that it was formed on the Day of Pentecost. That view would place Jesus' endorsement of the tithe in an OT law setting.
My view is that Jesus himself personally established his church during his earthly ministry. I hold that it was essentially in existence when he completed calling the Twelve, and that they formed the nucleus.
Jesus not only established his church, he built it.
He empowered it ("even the demons are subject to us.").
He established the ordinances (Jesus baptized not, but his disciples did).
(The Lord's Supper is "the New Testament in my blood").
They had a commission early on (he sent out the seventy).
They had a commission later on ("Go ye therefore...")
They had a message ("Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand")
They had a Head, Jesus himself.
They had a treasurer (Judas).
They had a business meeting (to choose Judas' successor).
All of this prior to Pentecost.
So, if my view is correct, then Jesus' teaching about tithing occurred during a New Testament setting, since his church existed prior to Pentecost.
i tend to see the Church establish at day of pentacost, but would see that under the new Covenant the Lord encourages us to be "charitable " in all of our dealings, and to give in appreciation for what He has done for us!
that is why tend to see 10 % figure as not requirement, be a good refernce point to build upon!
freeatlast
New Member
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]That's is fine if you want to believe that but the tithe is still not for the church. He was not speaking to the church when he mentioned the tithe. The giving the church is to do is taught by Paul and it has no link to the tithe. The tithe is legalism.
If you are going to follow your prescription for interpretation then the Sabbath is still in place as Jesus spoke of that also. All the ceremonies, feasts and are all covered by the Lord so we need to return to them based on your prescription. We have to go offer sacrifices and more according to your prescription.
No all that is gone along with the tithe.
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freeatlast
New Member
That is legalism. There is no reference point in percents. The determining factor is the cheerful giving. Give as long as we are cheerful and no more. It has nothing to do with an amount or percent, only a cheerful heart.
well, IF one has been blessed much more by the Lord as regards to financial area, the lord DOES expect that person to give more so than another want not so blessed!
Is true that God requires a cheerful/gracious/thankful giver, but also requires those who He financially blessed more to give back more!
freeatlast
New Member
No, here is what the scripture says;
KJV2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
ESV
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
It has nothing to do with how much we have. It has to do only what the heart will allow cheerfully. The intent is to reveal our hearts to ourselves. There is no amount or percent involved. Any person who follows the tithe or uses it for a model is in sin and any teacher or Pastor who teaches the tithe or to base our giving on the tithe is in sin teaching legalism because they are not following how the Lord commands us to give. It is totally a personal issue with absolutely no suggestion or command and totally without any outside pressure. The only guideline is the heart not the size of our weekly check or bank account.
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Tom Butler
New Member
We don't observe all those ceremonies, feasts, etc., because Paul specifically said they were gone for us.
This is a scenario out of my own mind:
Paul wrote that we should give "as God as prospered us." I can hear somebody say, "OK Paul, I understand that, but I have a question. What portion of our increase should we give?"
I'm wondering how Paul would address that question. Would he say, "Well, just give what you think is right."?
Or, might he say, "Well, we Jews, when we were under the law, we gave 10 per cent. But that's gone. And you're not Jewish. Just give what you can."
Or, might he say "You're not under the law any more, you're under grace. But I can tell you if you're looking for a guideline, I can point you to the tithe mentioned in the law."
Somehow, I have difficulty believing that Paul would tell his Gentile converts, "Sorry, you're on your own on this question."