Tithing and Giving

[Oldtimer]

That is too bad you do not know. I am afraid that many times the Spirit is used to cover the truth. First off the Spirit is not going to lead anyone any more then what scripture says and He certainly IS NOT going to have anyone refer to or base any part of their giving on the tithe in any way shape or form. Nor is He going to tell us how much. The scriptures put it all on us based on our own heart. It is always interesting to see how many people claim to be being lead by the Holy Spirit while what they are doing is not in total agreement with scripture. Scriptural giving can only be done IF there is no reference to the tithe in ones giving.

How can anyone who has read the Bible ignore any reference to the word "tithe" totally? The Lord hasn't given us the ability to erase from our minds references to xyz subjects in the OT? At least He hasn't in my case.

Do you have insight into my heart that no other man posseses? Is that a special gift that God gave you? A gift so powerful that you KNOW how the Holy Spirit is working in my life? So fine tuned that you can discern that I'm lying about being a cheerful giver unto the Lord?

Just how did you arrive at the amount that you give to the Lord? No, not the number of dollars involved. I could care less about the dollar amount as that's between you and the Lord. You had to go through some thought process to decide what to put in the collection plate. What was it?

 

[freeatlast]

How can anyone who has read the Bible ignore any reference to the word "tithe" totally? The Lord hasn't given us the ability to erase from our minds references to xyz subjects in the OT? At least He hasn't in my case.

Do you have insight into my heart that no other man posseses? Is that a special gift that God gave you? A gift so powerful that you KNOW how the Holy Spirit is working in my life? So fine tuned that you can discern that I'm lying about being a cheerful giver unto the Lord?

Just how did you arrive at the amount that you give to the Lord? No, not the number of dollars involved. I could care less about the dollar amount as that's between you and the Lord. You had to go through some thought process to decide what to put in the collection plate. What was it?

Yes He has given us that ability. I do it and so do many others as well. I once followed the tithe being taught falsely as many are and then I read the truth and now I give as instructed. I will admit it was a battle to come out from under the false teaching of the tithe as it is a brain washing thing. satan will falsely accuse us if we seek to obey the Lord in this.
I also know about the OT law and I don't follow the sacrifices, Sabbath and the rest. The same with the tithe and its principles. I put the tithe where it belongs just like I put the OT where it belongs. I am aware of the tithe but as a historical issue so it has no influence in my giving.

About the Spirit working in another. I know He never goes against the word of God. He never changes it, adds to it or takes from it. The only ones being lead of the Spirit are those who are following what is written. He will never point any church age saint to the tithe in literal practice or for reference in how to give. He is leading to give from the heart cheerfully with no reference to the tithe and nothing else.

You asked how I arrive at the amount I give. I know what type of comfort and lifestyle I want to live and what makes me happy. Shocking! Not spiritual you say! No it is being honest. I also know how much I want to serve the Lord and how much I want to sacrifice for the work of His kingdom if anything. So based on those things I cheerfully write a check as I desire to support His work with no outside pressure, or influence. Even on a fixed income it may vary from week to week as my heart may not be as cheerful in my giving from week to week and I seek never to fool myself into thinking it is by giving more then a cheerful heart. This does a couple things. One it sets us free. It is totally on me with no outside influence or pressure. Second it exposes my heart to me alone so as not to think more of myself then I ought. In other words I see at least in part what God see about me.

 

[HankD]

In reality all that we have is His.

And He wants our all.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

HankD​

 

[freeatlast]

In reality all that we have is His.

And He wants our all.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.​

HankD​

Yes and the pefect will of God in this matter is this.
2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

No tithe or basing our giving on the tithe is involved.

 

[HankD]

Jacob also paid tithes;

Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Jaccob paid tithes before the law.

Oops. Right. Different word form but same root as in the Hebrew.


HankD

 

[DaChaser1]

"given to Abraham"?

"Tithes" are mentioned only once in Genesis and it simply says Abraham gave them not that God required them of him.

It also says once that he offered an animal sacrifice as a burnt offering. Should you?

Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness, not that he paid tithes and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

But if it is what you have determined to do and are happy with it them go ahead, or even give more, there are plenty of missionaries, Christian workers and poor folk out there who need the outpouring of your faith.

"proportional giving" It is what you determine it to be.

Again, (and here I would probably differ with FAL) if that is what you have purposed in your heart and you are OK with it then fine.

HankD

I do lean more towards proportional giving as the basis of NT giving, but was just lining up the biblical pattern of tithing was practiced by people in the Bible in the OT times before even law given!

I just feel that we need to have charity in this area, as IF a sincere Christian
is giving from the heart with proper motivation, that the Lord will receive and honor either tithing or proportional giving!

 

[DaChaser1]

Yes He has given us that ability. I do it and so do many others as well. I once followed the tithe being taught falsely as many are and then I read the truth and now I give as instructed. I will admit it was a battle to come out from under the false teaching of the tithe as it is a brain washing thing. satan will falsely accuse us if we seek to obey the Lord in this.
I also know about the OT law and I don't follow the sacrifices, Sabbath and the rest. The same with the tithe and its principles. I put the tithe where it belongs just like I put the OT where it belongs. I am aware of the tithe but as a historical issue so it has no influence in my giving.

About the Spirit working in another. I know He never goes against the word of God. He never changes it, adds to it or takes from it. The only ones being lead of the Spirit are those who are following what is written. He will never point any church age saint to the tithe in literal practice or for reference in how to give. He is leading to give from the heart cheerfully with no reference to the tithe and nothing else.

You asked how I arrive at the amount I give. I know what type of comfort and lifestyle I want to live and what makes me happy. Shocking! Not spiritual you say! No it is being honest. I also know how much I want to serve the Lord and how much I want to sacrifice for the work of His kingdom if anything. So based on those things I cheerfully write a check as I desire to support His work with no outside pressure, or influence. Even on a fixed income it may vary from week to week as my heart may not be as cheerful in my giving from week to week and I seek never to fool myself into thinking it is by giving more then a cheerful heart. This does a couple things. One it sets us free. It is totally on me with no outside influence or pressure. Second it exposes my heart to me alone so as not to think more of myself then I ought. In other words I see at least in part what God see about me.

God loves a cheerful giver, not from compulsion!

Why would it be a sin or gainst will of God IF a christian gives back to the Lord EITHER on basis of proportional giving or from principle of the Tithe?

As in either case, the MAIN requirement is to be perduaded that they are giving back to the Lord, and with heart of thanksgiving!

 

[DaChaser1]

Yes and the pefect will of God in this matter is this.
2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

No tithe or basing our giving on the tithe is involved.

is it sinning against the Lord to be giving based upon the tithe then?

many Christians are doing that, are they ALL sinning?

 

[DaChaser1]

Oops. Right. Different word form but same root as in the Hebrew.


HankD

principle was establish by God to man before the Law...

when was that changed in the NT directly?

I see it as being the tithe for those of us with "lesser means" while those of us with larger blessings under proportinal giving!

 

[HankD]

principle was establish by God to man before the Law...

when was that changed in the NT directly?

I can't prove it but I believe Jesus alluded to it for the first time in His parable of the garments and wineskins:

Luke

36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.​

Immediately after this parable Jesus had the dispute with the Pharisees concerning Sabbath keeping.

The Old and New Covenants cannot be combined, one cannot assimilate the other but they must be kept distinct so that "both are preserved".

You are under the law of liberty (Galatians 5:1).

However, In relation to giving you should not violate your conscience but do what your heart puposes and gives you peace.


HankD

 

[DaChaser1]

I can't prove it but I believe Jesus alluded to it for the first time in His parable of the garments and wineskins:

Luke

36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.​

Immediately after this parable Jesus had the dispute with the Pharisees concerning Sabbath keeping.

The Old and New Covenants cannot be combined, one cannot assimilate the other but they must be kept distinct so that "both are preserved".

You are under the law of liberty (Galatians 5:1).

However, In relation to giving you should not violate your conscience but do what your heart puposes and gives you peace.


HankD

I do tend to see it as being the same way that you seem to lean towards, as being not under formal tithe, but proportionall giving, but cannot see from the Bible as fal does that one can stand in judgement upon bethren here who still view the tithe as being applicable to NT christians for today!

wouldn't the answer form God being "would you accept either one giving believing under tithe or free will, if done sincerely right heart? YES!

 

[Ed B]

....You asked how I arrive at the amount I give. I know what type of comfort and lifestyle I want to live and what makes me happy. Shocking! Not spiritual you say! No it is being honest. I also know how much I want to serve the Lord and how much I want to sacrifice for the work of His kingdom if anything. So based on those things I cheerfully write a check as I desire to support His work with no outside pressure, or influence. Even on a fixed income it may vary from week to week as my heart may not be as cheerful in my giving from week to week and I seek never to fool myself into thinking it is by giving more then a cheerful heart. This does a couple things. One it sets us free. It is totally on me with no outside influence or pressure. Second it exposes my heart to me alone so as not to think more of myself then I ought. In other words I see at least in part what God see about me.

I find these two underlined thoughts interesting. I disagree that using the tithe as a refernce point is sin. But I can see the value in allowing one's giving to act as a barometer. A tithe could be mailing it in especially for a person of considerable means. But in truth any set amount that a person gives can be mailing it in. I have been convicted in recent months to increase my giving. I haven't acted on it yet because my current giving is kind of on autopilot; kind like a tithe. I intended to follow my conviction and give more.

 

[freeatlast]

I find these two underlined thoughts interesting. I disagree that using the tithe as a refernce point is sin. But I can see the value in allowing one's giving to act as a barometer. A tithe could be mailing it in especially for a person of considerable means. But in truth any set amount that a person gives can be mailing it in. I have been convicted in recent months to increase my giving. I haven't acted on it yet because my current giving is kind of on autopilot; kind like a tithe. I intended to follow my conviction and give more.

If doing things your own way is not sin I don't know what is. Any reference to the tithe when giving is sin as it is not the way of the Lord for the church. God does not convict us to give more. You are not hearing from God if you have such a conviction. We are to give as our heart desires not from compulsion.

 

[Alcott]

Maybe somebody can explain this verse.

Luke 11:42, Jesus speaking:
Did not Jesus endorse tithing here?

Maybe so; Jesus perhaps did endorse tithing "mint and rue and every herb?" And, of course, the complex system of temple worship was still going on, but was about to relegated to the picture it was and is.

Luke wrote this Gospel several years later. Why didn't he insert a teaching that tithing no longer applies?

Arguably the same reason he didn't write that circumcision no longer applies.

In I Cor 16:2 Paul wrote to the Corinthians that they should give "as the Lord as prospered you." Paul surely passed up an opportunity to say that tithing is no longer commanded. Why didn't he say, "proportional giving, but not necessarily a tenth."?

That's essentially what he did say (along with not necessarily a twelvth; not necessarily a fifth,....).

Since Paul claimed to have been personally taught by Jesus, did he just forget that Jesus told him the principle of the tithe was no longer in effect?

Every tenet or principle that Jesus taught Paul is not recorded.

Jesus told the Pharisees they should tithe. Paul described himself as a "Pharisee of the Pharisees." If tithing is not a NT principle, then doesn't "as God as prospered you" mean whatever we want it to mean?

No; I don't think it means for every 10 bugs your Roach Motel catches to bring one of them to the church. Or, if you have a net loss for the week to reach in and get a tenth of that loss out of whatever the loot was contained in [in case you've been negatively prospered]. Incidentally, what was this collection all about, anyway?

I know, arguments from silence don't convince many, but Jesus was not silent about the tithe.

Yep; mint, rue and every herb.

 

[DaChaser1]

If doing things your own way is not sin I don't know what is. Any reference to the tithe when giving is sin as it is not the way of the Lord for the church. God does not convict us to give more. You are not hearing from God if you have such a conviction. We are to give as our heart desires not from compulsion.

WHEN did the Lord revoke the principle of the tithe though?

Didn't he endorse doing it, just criticised the Pharisees for being big on tithing, but NOT in doing the Spirit o fthe law?

God wants us to give, but to give it as unto Him!

Also...

Apostle paul remarks in Corinthians on giving could have been address to specific circumstances, emergency funds for the famine in the region!

he encouraged them as sign of actually following up to give abundantly, as churches that were in want was giving beyond their means, wanted to wealthy that their giving' was not just talk, but actually giving!"

 

[gb93433]

Why would it be a sin or gainst will of God IF a christian gives back to the Lord EITHER on basis of proportional giving or from principle of the Tithe?

If I recall right the tithes added up to about 23%.

 

[DaChaser1]

If I recall right the tithes added up to about 23%.

yep, as God required a triple tithing back under OT times!

 

[gb93433]

yep, as God required a triple tithing back under OT times!

Do you know of anyone who is a proponent of the tithe or teaches the tithe who gives 23%?

 

[Dr Mixer GED]

I have zero problems with tithing. In fact, why stop at 10%? What I do have a problem with is "ministers" either by ignorance, or dishonesty teaching tithing the way they do. The funny thing is, tithing is one issue that all denoms seem to agree on. Why is that? I suspect mostly ignorance, but you have to wonder if greed or a lack of trusting that God will provide enough off of offerings only as opposed to tithes.

The fact of the matter is tithes were given to the Levites. Do you know any Levite priests? Money was never given for tithing. Abram did not even give of his own personal property, but of the booty of war.

Again, if you feel led to tithe, by all means. I choose to give under grace. What I do have a problem with is how the tithe is taught and the attacks that we who give under grace have to hear.

 

[freeatlast]

I have zero problems with tithing. In fact, why stop at 10%? What I do have a problem with is "ministers" either by ignorance, or dishonesty teaching tithing the way they do. The funny thing is, tithing is one issue that all denoms seem to agree on. Why is that? I suspect mostly ignorance, but you have to wonder if greed or a lack of trusting that God will provide enough off of offerings only as opposed to tithes.

The fact of the matter is tithes were given to the Levites. Do you know any Levite priests? Money was never given for tithing. Abram did not even give of his own personal property, but of the booty of war.

Again, if you feel led to tithe, by all means. I choose to give under grace. What I do have a problem with is how the tithe is taught and the attacks that we who give under grace have to hear.

The tithe is legalism and sin.