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Tithing - Yes or NO - Part II
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
Alcott said:
I have always tithed and I believe I have received wonderful blessings, so why not continue? Do I not love my Lord enough to tithe?
The "Senior Pastor" [thus implying, I suppose, that we've got at least one "Junior Pastor" {!!}] of the church of which I'm a member (Visit www.lighthouseministries.org to find out more about it [and even listen to some of the messages that have been preached by him and other {but NOT "Junior"} members of our pastoral staff].) seldom mentions giving / tithing in his messages......(Thus making his pastoral credentials subject to serious question by those preacher / pastors who insist that giving / tithing must comprise a rather substantial portion of any doctrinally-sound, HS-inspired message!!! :tonofbricks: )....
He may make a sentence-or-two passing reference to giving / tithing if the context of his verse-by-verse, chapter-by-chapter, book-by-book expository preaching mentions the topic, but--other than that--that's it.
His basic goals as undershepard of this flock of roughly 250 people are quite simple:
(1) Teach those who'll listen to Love God first and foremost;
(2) Teach those who've latched on to the concept of Goal #1 to, then, Love the Word of God such that one willingly and joyfully chooses to obey what that Word instructs him/her to do in each and every aspect of life which it addresses (Last time I checked, those aspects that it addresses would cover at least the first 100% of a person's life.).
(3) In the natural flow of things from Goal # 1 & 2, then teach them to love those people He's placed within the zone of each person's life who've claimed those same two preceeding goals as being theirs too:
(a) Love [in the Apostle James's kind of way] the ones already in God's family.....Those you already address as 'Brother' or 'Sister', and,
(b) Love [in the Apostle Paul's kind of way] those whom you'd just be thrilled to death to also sometime really soon be included in God's family .... Those that you really can't right now address as 'Brother' or 'Sister' because their birth hasn't yet occured ..... You (yeah, YOU!!) being the one God expects to be the head of that person's ob/gyn & delivery staff!! ....
(4) Having, again w/ the HS's' help and guidance, within the body, soul & spirit of those who've demonstrated their desire to fulfill Goals # 1, 2, & 3, he then pretty much leaves the rest up to the LORD......Someone who he's realized long ago will do a much better job at being able to complete what He's started in those people long before the foundation of the world.
Really basic goals, aren't they?
Really Biblical goals too, aren't they!!! :thumbs:
He may make a sentence-or-two passing reference to giving / tithing if the context of his verse-by-verse, chapter-by-chapter, book-by-book expository preaching mentions the topic, but--other than that--that's it.
His basic goals as undershepard of this flock of roughly 250 people are quite simple:
(1) Teach those who'll listen to Love God first and foremost;
(2) Teach those who've latched on to the concept of Goal #1 to, then, Love the Word of God such that one willingly and joyfully chooses to obey what that Word instructs him/her to do in each and every aspect of life which it addresses (Last time I checked, those aspects that it addresses would cover at least the first 100% of a person's life.).
(3) In the natural flow of things from Goal # 1 & 2, then teach them to love those people He's placed within the zone of each person's life who've claimed those same two preceeding goals as being theirs too:
(a) Love [in the Apostle James's kind of way] the ones already in God's family.....Those you already address as 'Brother' or 'Sister', and,
(b) Love [in the Apostle Paul's kind of way] those whom you'd just be thrilled to death to also sometime really soon be included in God's family .... Those that you really can't right now address as 'Brother' or 'Sister' because their birth hasn't yet occured ..... You (yeah, YOU!!) being the one God expects to be the head of that person's ob/gyn & delivery staff!! ....
(4) Having, again w/ the HS's' help and guidance, within the body, soul & spirit of those who've demonstrated their desire to fulfill Goals # 1, 2, & 3, he then pretty much leaves the rest up to the LORD......Someone who he's realized long ago will do a much better job at being able to complete what He's started in those people long before the foundation of the world.
Really basic goals, aren't they?
Really Biblical goals too, aren't they!!! :thumbs:
Alcott said:
Why? You really need to ask?
1-Because I see it as a very small return to God for what he has done for me.
2-Because I see the needs of the church I belong to and to the mission efforts they support.
3-Because I see it as a good discipline in my life. God can provide. You cannot out give God.
4-Because God blessed the tither in the OT. Why would the unchangable God change in this regard?
5-I have nothing that God has not given me.
I also believe that Jesus tithed. If he did not you can be sure that the Pharasees would have brough this up as a criticism. I cannot prove this, but neither can you disprove this.
Why are you so resistant to tithing? I'm just curious, not seeking an argument, just information.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Marcia said:
In the OT it was primarily crops and animals. You can see this in Ruth the practice for those in need following after the harvesters. The levites lived off tithes as well as their property around the cities. However, I wonder if a family does not make enough money to give 10% of their gross income is it ok by some here to give what they can afford? for instance a family of 4 living of of 25,000 a year (and many live off much less) may be barely surviving. Earning approximately $ 2,083 a month where their net income each month may be $1771 then their bills such as rent (between $750 - $1,000 monthly), Electric $100 - $150 (depending if their state has deregulated in which case were probably looking at $200). other utilities depend on rent agreements but low rent like $750 usually includes the person needing to pay water ($50) possibly natural gas ($40) sewage ($40). Groceries between $300 to $500. In this country a vehicle is required for work in most places (big cities with available reliable transit excluded) with a car payment of $250 and insurance (estimate average) $80 and fuel (now its down good deal.) of $70 monthly (estimate 2-3 fill ups depending on required driving). leaving with a family with (purposely estimated low and with out other necessities such as clothing etc...) about $131 which they must tithe $208. Where do these people fall into things? Are they sinning if they don't tithe the base level of 10% or can they give what they can afford? I become very supicious if a pastor answers the question :smilewinkgrin:
Crabtownboy said:
Yes, because you stated you have found that you cannot afford not to tithe. So if you say now that there has been no period in which you did not tithe, you could not have found that out; you're just assuming it in a boastful way.
Unlike you (apparently) I have put God to the test in this, as the Malachi 3 passage says to do. I made graphs, charts, and calculations, and the best fit I could find seemed to indicate a positive corelation between my giving one month and my financial balance 2 months later. So if this really worked, it could be manipulated; therefore I tried it. I made absolutely certain to give more than a tithe of every penny increase from any source. What happend? Any correlation that had appeared fell out-- the confidence interval, which was in the 95% range when I began this, dropped like a dead quail...IOW the test failed. Conclusion: tithing was for the nation of Israel to support its complex system of temple worship with priests and Levites, and much of the titheS and offerings were in support of what we similarly pay for in taxes. AND, almost everyone who makes these boastful claims that they are better off financially because they faithfully tithe have not actually put it to the test and done any genuine comparisons. And finally, if they end up saying the 'blessings' from tithing may be intangible, or not given numerical values or be pragmatically evalusted, that contradicts the promise of Malachi 3, to see if God will not pour out blessings such that a storehouse cannot hold.
Martin Luther
New Member
SALTCITYBAPTIST said:
Give as God as allowed you to, to your church, to the poor, but to what/whom the Spirit directs you. No one should give out of a sense of duty, as if God was calculating the percentages. God wants His people out of debt; keep that in mind as well. The church would have much better staying power if its members were debt free. There is no direct order by God to tithe to a local church, but churches make commitments to missions etc, and those can not be allowed to fail.
Alcott said:
The problem is that no matter what they say you will not believe them.
In a thread a while back you and I discussed this and told you my personal testimony about God's provision miraculously of food and could validate by witnesses - you still tried to come up with some rational explenation that did not include God of how the food was still in the pot after 5 days of 3 teenage guys eatiing it 3x's a day.
Who (of those of faith) would wish to deliberately walk in sin to see if God would keep His promise? When God declared 'test me in this' it wasn't concerning do it for a while, make charts and graphs, and then stop, make charts and graphs, and then choose. God meant 'do it' and see/watch/observe how much I will bless you. You like many others are under some distorted opinion that God's blessing in which He will bless us is 'typically' through getting more money. Wrong. Though money can be given, it is not about primarily about this but about the abundance of necessities. You will have an abundance. This was not for us to horde but to give away that He might bless us even more. Not to mention that we will be favorable to others outside the faith as well.
The only thing that contradicts the promise of Mal 3 is your faith and understanding of what God's blessing is in proportion to the tithe.
NOW - let me reitterate something I have maintained from the beginning but want to clarify it now before someone puts words into my mouth. The tithe was law to the OT saints just as most everything else was to get them to doing that which is right before the Lord. We NT saints are still to abide by many of those laws but we are not bound to the law regarding salavation, thus those things become spiriutal laws and principles we are to live by. The tithe or giving 10% is a spiritual principle we are to be giving, at the very least. Even the pagans gave at the very minimum 10 % to display their devotion, dedication, and complete reliance upon their gods goodness an provisons. How much more so should we as christians be giving to the real True and Living God. - According to scripture we should be giving MUCH more than a tenth, but following in the example of one of the churches which gave to Pauls ministry till they themselves were in need.
We do not tithe or give because we have 'enough' to give but because it is what we are commanded to do. We place our faith not in our job, or our hands, or our ability to continue working so that 'one day' we can give in the manner we would like. Is our God able or not to supply our needs according to His riches in glory? Are dependant upon God to give as there is need AND as He so leads or are we god ourselves who will dictact when God can have what is rightfully all His anyway?
I have never personally met a person who at first didn't tithe (due to their having such a poor income vs bills) that didn't begin tithing and said they can't continue. I have always, every time, personally heard them get up before the church and give praises to God because He has proved Himself faithful to those who have placed their hope and faith in Him for their needs.
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Actaully, no.StefanM said:
He still blesses the performer of the sacrifices.
Regarding most specifically your 'aninimal sacrfices'; He did not change the animal sacrifices but has fufilled or completed the need for it, thus it no longer is required. The performer who was blessed in this gives forth His blessing to those who will receive it. So here again, no the system is not changed but fulfilled or done.
He still blesses the person who abstians unclean foods, if God has not given them understanding yet that all things are now clean if we pray. AND God blesses the one who abstains from eating that which a brother considers unclean or sinful.
This last one was not manditory upon anyone and thus was not specifically law. Secondly, God declared just how 'close' a relative was too close a relative to marry.
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Which means regardless of what scripture might say you're against it.Thinkingstuff said:
The fact remains that those who have so little (as you have set forth) and tithe, find they are not in the dire straights some fabricate.
I happen to be one of those who have a family of 5 living on $20,000 still tithe (on the gross) and I have need for nothing. In fact I own everything I have including 2 cars (one 1998 Plymoth Grand Voyager, and one 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee) while I Rent @$400 a month. Yes, we save and spend our money wisely but that of itself is not enough to explain where last year alone we were given by total strangers hundreds of dollars, or bills being paid by us even though we never sent in payment, ect.. Do I attribute all of this to tithing? No, but I do attribute all of this to being faithful which includes at the VERY least amount possible, tithing.
And similarly I believe that God blesses the person who gives 10%, intending to obey what he believes is a requirement.Allan said:
I simply do not believe that 10% is a requirement for the church age.
I guess I'm too much of a heretical dispensationalist.
Allan said:
On what basis do you know that we are to maintain the tithe? Tradition?
The second part scares me a bit. I'm not saying that you would advocate this, but this kind of logic can become pharisaic very quickly.
"If X is good, then XY must be better! Why should we settle for X? And XYZ is even better!, etc."
Why not just give 99% of your income? All of the arguments about trusting God can still apply.
No, scripture.StefanM said:
If you go back - I did reword it. but your point would still be the same.
But no, it would be almost impossible to become pharisaic on this.
We are commanded by God to give. And my point wasn't about this is good but this is better. It is more concerning this is the beginning, now where will you go - forward or backward in faith (in relation to the beginning or starting point)?
However your point is also true that it is good and the other better but if one is looking to impress God they are not a cheerful giver but one who is looking for favor or somekind of merit to add to themselves. And if this is the case it would be better for them to keep their money than give it.
Your correct and that should be were we all can come to. I have done this by the way but as says the scripture it is because that is what God placed upon my heart to give. There are two types of giving described in scripture. One is that which is set aside in proportion to what you make and the other is as the Lord leads.
Let me ask you this then.StefanM said:And similarly I believe that God blesses the person who gives 10%, intending to obey what he believes is a requirement.
I simply do not believe that 10% is a requirement for the church age.
I guess I'm too much of a heretical dispensationalist.
Is it a law that we are to love the brethren?
Is it a command?
Are we wrong to not obey?
And just how minimal are we allowed to love before we disobey that command?
I mean we have to love our parents, our family, our neighbors, and now even the church? Who is able to love in such a manner continuously?
Is it a requirement to come to church?
And just how seldom are we allowed not to be there before it is disobedience?
It is the same with giving. The tithe is simply a beginning that we might grow in faith and relience upon Him who provides everything for us.
It is giving that is a requirement, the tithe is not a requirement (as if it were an ordinance of the church) only the beginning or starting place of our obedience when it comes to giving.
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Allan said:
How/where did God specify exactly how or what type of testing was to be done? "See if (he) will not pour out a blessing..." .. there are a lot of wasy to do this, some more technical than others, but all should work if the principle is applicable to us.
I don't think so, but I say what I do because that is what so many preachers or 'testimony' givers say. I think they use the money angle less nowadays, perhaps because there have been many who have shown otherwise. But they still do, primarily, talk about how your needs [financial] will always be met if you faithfully tithe.
Alright, what is it?-- if it is not a 'blessing' that an earthly structure can contain?
To this, just give a reasonable reference.
I suppose you should tell me. 20%? 50%? 100%? Indeed, if God will supply all our needs, why do we-- or you-- not quit your job and spend 40 or more hours a week witnessing the gospel? After all, he will provide all our needs, won't he? Either quit, or else give ALL our income to the church? Or do you just not trust him that much?
Consider this in regard to my question above.
Likely enough. If they can tithe once, they can again.
Yeah, I've heard that. Like from the old lady who said her faithfulness in tithing was 'proved' by her having missed only 4 days of work in 14 years at the cotton mill. Too bad God couldn't also cover those 4 days she was sick, ain't it?
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