To Be or Not to Be

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: And get over the coffee thing. The master said put the coffee in the cup and the servant put it on the guest of honors lap. The servant got distracted by the young lady in the pretty dress and tripped over the rug. Sounds like "missing the mark", oops, not obeying a known command to me. Would you be happier if I used some "terrible" sin like adultry with the masters wife?\

HP: Are you trying to indicate that if one does not believe the illustration another uses is proper, that they need to just 'get over it?' I thought this was a debate section.

TrustitL: Where did you come up with "When any man violates the moral law of God, they indeed will come under the law and its penalty."

HP: The Holy Spirit revealing truth to my heart..

TrustitL: What laws are the "moral law" and what are it's penalties? And how do I exactly pay that price?

HP: If you are honestly that ignorant of the concept of morality and moral law, I do not believe any explanation I would give would help. What is your point?

HP: One is not under the law when one first has received forgiveness from sins that are past

TrustitL: And then one goes back under it when he commits his first sin as a child of God? Thats a new one.

HP: Not according to the Word of Truth. Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

 

[trustitl]

The Holy Spirit revealing truth to my heart?! Let me quote a frequent BB poster with the initials HP: "Give me scripture". :thumbs:

HP: If you are honestly that ignorant of the concept of morality and moral law, I do not believe any explanation I would give would help. What is your point?

Or you don't want ot attempt to. The breakdown of law into "moral, civil, and ceremonial" is man made and you know it. That was my point.

Now concerning the law of sin and death and Ezek. 18:4 "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."

"Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God." Rom. 6:9-10 :jesus:
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2 :jesus:
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom. 6:23:jesus:

 

[trustitl]

By the way HP, Paul already answered your next question:
:jesus:
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into :jesus: were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. :jesus:

 

[trustitl]

:godisgood: "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins" Col. 1:13-14

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel" Col. 1:21-23 :godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: The Holy Spirit revealing truth to my heart?! Let me quote a frequent BB poster with the initials HP: "Give me scripture".

HP: I use those words often with those that fallaciously claim to establish all truth strictly “sola scriptura.” I insert such challenges often to establish a point that all truth is not derived from Scripture and that all men have philosophical presuppositions they approach Scripture with, either consciously or subconsciously.

HP: If you are honestly that ignorant of the concept of morality and moral law, I do not believe any explanation I would give would help. What is your point?

TrustitL: Or you don't want ot attempt to. The breakdown of law into "moral, civil, and ceremonial" is man made and you know it. That was my point.

HP: What do you mean by the distinction being man-made? I certainly do not believe or maintain that. I believe God gave us the reasoning capabilities to distinguish, in our enlightened age,(or at least I believe it ‘should be’ enlightened) between that which remains constant regardless of the day and age one lives in and that all moral beings from Adam to our day are held accountable to, and that which was a simply a temporary schoolmaster.

Tell us TrustitL, is it a man-made notion to distinguish between a universal commandment given to all men for as long as they remain in this temporal state of humanity, and that which was given as a temporary schoolmaster to lead mankind into a deeper and far more enlightened understanding of God and His plan of redemption ?

 

[steaver]

HP: Not according to the Word of Truth. Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

This is the second time you referenced Eze 18:26 as evidence that a man can be born-again and then sin and be condemned to hell. The first time was in the "Are you saving Yourself" thread and there it was shown to you the proper and correct application of this passage.

And even though you have been shown your misuse of this passage you have ignored the reprove and go on to reference it yet another day. This shows that you are dug into your views no matter what another brother or sister in Christ says to you.

Here is what was shown unto you in the "Are you saving Yourself" thread for the second time....

Steaver, post 32;

Were in the world did you come up with this conclusion from Eze 18:26??

Were in the passage is it said the man was "birthed into salvation by faith"?

Contrary; The passage states his righteousness. You do not consult the full counsel of God's word in your studies or conclusions.

If you did you would find this...

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Dan 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I could go on and on. You have terribly misused Eze 18 to prop up your view of one losing their salvation through faith.

Here are the unanswered questions given you.....

Quote: HP
I would like for one person on this list to show me where I have ever set forth or even insinuated that I believe that I am saved by my own righteousness.

Steaver; "You put forth the passage of scripture HP on a man's own righteousness. Tell us why? The thread is "Are you saving yourself"?

Tell us, What does the man's own righteousnesses have to do with his salvation? If nothing, why did you put forth the passage in this discussion of "Are you saving Yourself"?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

HP, I'm curious. What denomination are you? I have not been able to indentify it by your posts.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: HP, I'm curious. What denomination are you? I have not been able to indentify it by your posts.

HP: I do not subscribe to any individual denomination. I can only say, others may but I cannot,….. this far in my Christian walk at least.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver; "You put forth the passage of scripture HP on a man's own righteousness. Tell us why? The thread is "Are you saving yourself"?

Tell us, What does the man's own righteousnesses have to do with his salvation? If nothing, why did you put forth the passage in this discussion of "Are you saving Yourself"?

HP: May I answer this with a Scripture? Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whose righteousness was Christ referring to when He said ‘your righteousness?’

 

[Amy.G]

HP: I do not subscribe to any individual denomination. I can only say, others may but I cannot,….. this far in my Christian walk at least.

Do you attend a church?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: May I answer this with a Scripture? Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whose righteousness was Christ referring to when He said ‘your righteousness?’

I think He meant "their righteousness". But their righteousness will never equal that of God's. It will always fall short. Therefore in order to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, we must depend on the righteousness of Christ. We have His righteousness when we put our faith in Him.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Do you attend a church?

HP: Yes I do but I am not a member of it.

 

[trustitl]

HP: I use those words often with those that fallaciously claim to establish all truth strictly “sola scriptura.” I insert such challenges often to establish a point that all truth is not derived from Scripture and that all men have philosophical presuppositions they approach Scripture with, either consciously or subconsciously.

Perhaps, but no in contradiction to it.

HP: What do you mean by the distinction being man-made? I certainly do not believe or maintain that. I believe God gave us the reasoning capabilities to distinguish, in our enlightened age,(or at least I believe it ‘should be’ enlightened) between that which remains constant regardless of the day and age one lives in and that all moral beings from Adam to our day are held accountable to, and that which was a simply a temporary schoolmaster.

It is man-made because you will not find Moses saying "Please refer to Moral Code, Section IX, Number 12. To the Jews the Law was the Law. Out of doctrinal concerns people have disected the Law into sections to support their positions.

Tell us TrustitL, is it a man-made notion to distinguish between a universal commandment given to all men for as long as they remain in this temporal state of humanity, and that which was given as a temporary schoolmaster to lead mankind into a deeper and far more enlightened understanding of God and His plan of redemption ?

The schoolmaster brought us to Christ and the Comforter. It did not bring us into an "Age of Enlightenment". This term is used to describe the time of history which advocated reason as the primary basis of authority. I know you are not equating the two, but you are treading very closely to it.

I am merely saying that our attempts at dissecting the law into sections is not what Paul had in mind. The law still stands today as a schoolmaster to the Jews and any other poor sap that is trying to gain God's favor by obeying it. I am dead to the Law, not the Civil or Ceremonial only. The Law in it's written form to the Jews is not what guides me nor do I need to go through the Law with a fine toothed comb and figure out which ones are for today and which ones are done away with.

We do not use our "reasoning capabilites" to guide us into living out righteousness. It is when "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" that we are able to "be transformed by the renewing of our mind". Reasoning things out will only lead us into trouble.

Rom. 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "

 

[trustitl]

HP: Yes I do but I am not a member of it.

If this is true, then you are wasting your time.

Take this from someone who is not a "member" of a church in man's eyes because I have not signed on like I am supposed to. But, I am a member nonetheless. :thumbs:

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead" Gal.1:1


So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Romans 12:5

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Eph. 4:25

That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. I Cor. 12:25

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: If this is true, then you are wasting your time.

HP: At times it indeed may feel like that but God may have something else in mind. I can only hope that something for His Kingdom might be accomplished and that I might edify someone in some small measure and be edified by others.

 

[steaver]

HP: May I answer this with a Scripture? Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whose righteousness was Christ referring to when He said ‘your righteousness?’

Their own. Correct?

Here are your own words....HP;No man is saved on the account of his own righteousness. The grounds of salvation is the mercy of God period.

So why do you continue to reference scripture which speaks of a man's own righteousnesses in an attempt to illustrate that his own righteousnesses is needed for salvation?

Which way is it? You have made statements in favor of both ways.

God bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

I think He meant "their righteousness". But their righteousness will never equal that of God's. It will always fall short. Therefore in order to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, we must depend on the righteousness of Christ. We have His righteousness when we put our faith in Him.

God bless you for you have studied and have rightly divided the word of truth. :thumbs:

 

[trustitl]

Regarding Matthew 5:20, and the whole sermon on the mount for that matter, Christ was pointing out the Pharisees' inability to be righteous by being good on their own.

In the previous few verses he was establishing the law in the sense of it being a schoolmaster as revealed through Paul in Galations.

This is why he goes on with the examples out of the law and the raising of the bar beyond the letter. The Pharisees had been keeping the letter of the law, but their hearts were still impure. And as Amy pointed out, our only hope is Christ's righteousness.

The Solid Rock

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.

Refrain

On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.

When darkness seems to hide His face,
I rest on His unchanging grace.
In every high and stormy gale,
My anchor holds within the veil.

Refrain

His oath, His covenant, His blood,
Support me in the whelming flood.
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my Hope and Stay.

Refrain

When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh may I then in Him be found.
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.

Refrain

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/m/y/myhopeis.htm

 

[steaver]

The Solid Rock

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.

Refrain

On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.

When darkness seems to hide His face,
I rest on His unchanging grace.
In every high and stormy gale,
My anchor holds within the veil.

Refrain

His oath, His covenant, His blood,
Support me in the whelming flood.
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my Hope and Stay.

Refrain

When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh may I then in Him be found.
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.

Refrain

Amen!

I often wonder what hymns and praise songs those who believe in their own works saving them have to sing?! All of the songs I ever heard played in praise and worship give all the glory to Jesus Christ and His work. Has anyone ever written a hymn giving man some credit for his work?

Do you know any good praise us songs HP?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here is a ‘Blessed’ Psalm just for you Steaver. :thumbs:


Ps 1:1 ¶ Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 ¶ The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.