To Calvinists, What is 'Irresistible Grace'?

[DHK]

DHK,

Here is your original question to me.

A simple question:
Did Israel resist the Holy Spirit?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Here was my answer.

Only after they were the Chosen People of God.

I am not debating whether or not the Jews were saved or not. I believe the Jews were lost without Jesus. You asked did Israel resist the Holy Spirit?

My answer is both historically and biblically correct.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Romans 11:9-10 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all (Israel) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Israel's religion is a false religion. God has blinded them to the gospel. They are a nation that has rejected Christ. They resisted the Holy Spirit, as Stephen said. They are even in blindness to this day. And they will continue to be in this condition until Christ comes again. At that time, as it says in Rom.11:26, "So then, all Israel shall be saved;" but not until that time. The unsaved Jews that Stephen spoke to were just as unsaved as anyone else. This is what the Scripture clearly says. You have stated your opinion without Scriptural backup. Clearly unsaved people resist the Holy Spirit as those that were unsaved resisted the Holy Spirit during Stephen's preaching. There is no way for the Calvinist to get around that, but by twisting Scripture to make it mean something that it doesn't.

 

[Hardsheller]

DHK,

You are reading into my answer much more than is there.

Tell me how my answer was incorrect or else cease and desist in this useless conversation.

If all you want to do is discredit another Calvinist then state your case. I fail to see how your question or your perceived answer applies to the OP or to anything that I have written so far.

I fail to see how your question pertains to Calvinism at all! :BangHead:

 

[jne1611]

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Romans 11:9-10 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all (Israel) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Israel's religion is a false religion. God has blinded them to the gospel. They are a nation that has rejected Christ. They resisted the Holy Spirit, as Stephen said. They are even in blindness to this day. And they will continue to be in this condition until Christ comes again. At that time, as it says in Rom.11:26, "So then, all Israel shall be saved;" but not until that time. The unsaved Jews that Stephen spoke to were just as unsaved as anyone else. This is what the Scripture clearly says. You have stated your opinion without Scriptural backup. Clearly unsaved people resist the Holy Spirit as those that were unsaved resisted the Holy Spirit during Stephen's preaching. There is no way for the Calvinist to get around that, but by twisting Scripture to make it mean something that it doesn't.

Spurgeon said that the Holy Ghost could be resisted, only not successfully by the elect. That's how some Calvinists answer that issue. That some people God lets resist in rebellion until the day they die, for all men naturally resist God, yet if God has chosen them, their resistance will be changed by His power to obedience. Though I do not claim to be a Calvinist, I agree with this.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

You are reading into my answer much more than is there.

Tell me how my answer was incorrect or else cease and desist in this useless conversation.

If all you want to do is discredit another Calvinist then state your case. I fail to see how your question or your perceived answer applies to the OP or to anything that I have written so far.

I fail to see how your question pertains to Calvinism at all! :BangHead:

The point is this. I chose the Acts 7 passage because it uses the exact phrase "resist the Holy Ghost" one that a Calvinist cannot get away from when using the term "irresistable grace." Obviously it can be resisted. Now expand that term. What were they resisting? They were resistng the conviction of the Holy Spirit. So I challenge you. Give me what ever group you wish: unconverted Israel or converted Israel. unconverted Gentile or saved Gentile. Choose whomever you will, and I will give you an example of someone in that category who has resisted the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of irresistable grace holds no water.

 

[Hardsheller]

DHK

No Calvinist I know denies that people resist the Holy Spirit.

I certainly don't. Even the Elect can resist the Holy Spirit before they are saved and many times do.

We certainly can resist the Holy Spirit after we are saved because Paul admonishes the Thessalonians not to "Quench the Spirit".

The Doctrine of Irrestible Grace certainly does not rise or fall on that one verse you chose to build this unending one sided conversation on.

 

[DHK]

DHK

No Calvinist I know denies that people resist the Holy Spirit.

I certainly don't. Even the Elect can resist the Holy Spirit before they are saved and many times do.

We certainly can resist the Holy Spirit after we are saved because Paul admonishes the Thessalonians not to "Quench the Spirit".

The Doctrine of Irrestible Grace certainly does not rise or fall on that one verse you chose to build this unending one sided conversation on.

Then why say that grace is irresistable?

 

[skypair]

yet if God has chosen them, their resistance will be changed by His power to obedience. Though I do not claim to be a Calvinist, I agree with this.

Yet THEY don't even obey perfectly! The Spirit is resistible, jne.

skypair

 

[jne1611]

Yet THEY don't even obey perfectly! The Spirit is resistible, jne.

skypair

I never said He was not. All I said is that it is according to God's power that we do not resist.
The point is, that they obey in faith. I know we resist after. No doubt. The weakness of the flesh is so severe that the Holy Ghost must make intercession for our very prayers. I am making the point that the obedience of faith must be of God, for naturally we would fall in unbelief. Faith in Christ is of the power of God. According to the flesh, we hate the light, we run from the light, and reject the light. It is the operation of God that changes that or we would surely cast away Christ.

For instance. Most Baptist Churches agree on eternal security. Most on this board would make it clear that a saved man cannot apostatize, or fall away from the faith and perish. In comes the question, Why? How since we are shown to be feeble, weak, unbelieving at times, and so clumsy, can we say that it is impossible for us to apostatize. The answer, it MUST be of God. He must keep us. He must KEEP OUR FAITH INTACT at least that much. That is how I see the Belief of the elect. At THE VERY LEAST, God makes sure our resistance is turned to belief in Christ when it comes to our SALVATION.

That is most likely the biggest confusion with the term irresistible, it the 5 point system. In the system, the context of grace being irresistable is SALVATION. I think that most Calvinist's would agree.

 

[skypair]

I never said He was not. All I said is that it is according to God's power that we do not resist.
The point is, that they obey in faith. I know we resist after. No doubt.

And which in state do you think we are more "resistible" -- lost or saved? Sounds like you are saying we can resist MORE if we are saved!?

[Assurance] The answer, it MUST be of God. He must keep us.

No, the answer must be 2Pet 1, jne. Our salvation is intact -- it is our assurance that we doubt -- that we "resist." If we don't grow, we forget that we are forgiven and we cannot see afar off. It is our cooperation with the Spirit, as when we were saved, that gives us assurance.

skypair

 

[Rippon]

DHK , Jne1611 and Hardsheller are correct . Why you persist in thinking that a pillar of Calvinism has been felled is beyond me . The term "irresistable grace" has thrown you into confusion , or you know nothing of the Synod of Dort . Just as the term "limited atonement" ( better rendered as specific redemption or particular atonement ) has also confused folks , so has "irresistable grace ."

Efficacious grace is more to the point . It is to those who are drawn by the Father to Jesus . See John 6:37,43,65 and even John 12:32 for amplification .The are under the power of the Holy Spirit . These people are the elect ones who are put under spiritual arrest . Their hearts are brought under the control of God . Resistance is futile . They have no desire to resist . But they won't be assimilated like part of the Borg . They become regenerated and the Holy Spirit has now lodged in their beings .

 

[jne1611]

And which in state do you think we are more "resistible" -- lost or saved? Sounds like you are saying we can resist MORE if we are saved!?

No, the answer must be 2Pet 1, jne. Our salvation is intact -- it is our assurance that we doubt -- that we "resist." If we don't grow, we forget that we are forgiven and we cannot see afar off. It is our cooperation with the Spirit, as when we were saved, that gives us assurance.

skypair

I think I was clear enough you could understand me on this point.
You know full well that we are fully in a resisting state before salvation. After, we still resist only in the flesh. Our spirit is renewed & we have the Holy Spirit. So after we don't go on in the rebelliousness that we did before because we are born again. Though we still resist, it is no where compared to our former state.
God is GOING to save His elect. No question about that is there? NOT ONE of them will go to hell. It is by HIS power they believe, not by their own. And where and when we can resist is up to Him. Jonah was given the opportunity to resist, but, how did he get back to where he was supposed to be? By God's POWER. He even told the people on that ship to throw him over or God would take the ship into the water to get him. Could that be resisted? Or was it give up, your defeated?

And my friend, if you think that reaching the end of this road and not apostatising is due to ANYTHING other than God's Power ALONE, you need to put all other studies aside and look at that a little harder.

And how is our salvation intact? By our own power? or by God's?

No one said ANYTHING about assurance. That is off topic & I will not engage it. I said, most Baptist believe that a Christian cannot apostatize. If you believe you cannot be lost after salvation. Then you are forced to admit that GOD is the reason, not YOU. Not cooperation. GOD ALONE. Else you by your freewill could decide to get out. Can you? If not WHY? Peter said we are kept by the POWER OF GOD, not our cooperation with the Spirit. NO WHERE is credit given to man for this. That gives him right to boast. If you over come, it is not due to your cooperation with the Spirit. It is due to the Spirit's GREATNESS OVER "he that is in the world".

 

[jne1611]

DHK , Jne1611 and Hardsheller are correct . Why you persist in thinking that a pillar of Calvinism has been felled is beyond me . The term "irresistable grace" has thrown you into confusion , or you know nothing of the Synod of Dort . Just as the term "limited atonement" ( better rendered as specific redemption or particular atonement ) has also confused folks , so has "irresistable grace ."

Efficacious grace is more to the point . It is to those who are drawn by the Father to Jesus . See John 6:37,43,65 and even John 12:32 for amplification .The are under the power of the Holy Spirit . These people are the elect ones who are put under spiritual arrest . Their hearts are brought under the control of God . Resistance is futile . They have no desire to resist . But they won't be assimilated like part of the Borg . They become regenerated and the Holy Spirit has now lodged in their beings .

You are right. The confusion is caused by terms more often than not.

 

[Hardsheller]

Then why say that grace is irresistable?

Because at the moment Saving Grace turns a Sinner's Heart it is irresistable.

That was easy. Give me a tougher question.

 

[jne1611]

Because at the moment Saving Grace turns a Sinner's Heart it is irresistable.

That was easy. Give me a tougher question.

Right. That purpose will not be defeated.

 

[npetreley]

Because at the moment Saving Grace turns a Sinner's Heart it is irresistable.

That was easy. Give me a tougher question.

I think much (but not all) of the confusion is because of the terms. We can resist the Holy Spirit, but irresistable grace is true. That sounds contradictory until you understand that we're talking about two different things.

Also some people think of "irresistable" as "forced", others see it as "I can't possibly pass up that mouth-watering pizza".

 

[jne1611]

I think much (but not all) of the confusion is because of the terms. We can resist the Holy Spirit, but irresistable grace is true. That sounds contradictory until you understand that we're talking about two different things.

Also some people think of "irresistable" as "forced", others see it as "I can't possibly pass up that mouth-watering pizza".

I heard a preacher explain his take on Calvinism's "I" by saying that the Calvinist does not leave Christ knocking on the door. The Calvinist believes he storms it down and saves you against your will.

Most people get that idea from irresistible.

 

[Hardsheller]

The Third Verse of Charles Wesley's great Hymn - And Can It Be sums up Irresistable Grace.

Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature's night;
Thine eye diffused a quick'ning ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free;
I rose, went forth and followed thee.

And that's from a Wesley - go figure!

 

[David Lamb]

The Third Verse of Charles Wesley's great Hymn - And Can It Be sums up Irresistable Grace.

Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature's night;
Thine eye diffused a quick'ning ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free;
I rose, went forth and followed thee.

And that's from a Wesley - go figure!

I love that hymn! It makes me think of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus - and my own conversion, of course.

 

[skypair]

These people are the elect ones who are put under spiritual arrest . Their hearts are brought under the control of God . Resistance is futile . They have no desire to resist . But they won't be assimilated like part of the Borg . They become regenerated and the Holy Spirit has now lodged in their beings .

"Resistance is futile . They have no desire to resist." Which is it, rippon?? One syas we're forced -- the other says we offer no resistance.

I say it's the latter, don't you? I say that once we believe the Spirit, we are not going to resist/disobey. So then, yes, they repent and gladly receive Christ (Mt 13:20). NONE are "arrested" and "brought under control of God." I believe even you would say you "misspoke" on that account.

"To whomsoever a man submits himself to serve, his servant is he."

skypair

 

[skypair]

Because at the moment Saving Grace turns a Sinner's Heart it is irresistable.

So you believe in an "effect" without a humanly discernable "cause" beyond you didn't believe one moment but believed the next? How do you know this originated inside you (by HS regeneration) and not outside you (by preaching)?

skypair