To Obey God rather than tradition is legalism? Really??

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

…..
Christ is the believer's Sabbath. He is our rest. Note to the confused SDA.
Christ is a person and not a day. He is living; a real person, not an inanimate day.
There remains therefore Christ. We rest in Him. All who come to him shall find rest. He is our sabbath; our eternal rest. If you don't have Christ you will never have rest.
The wicked are like the troubled sea that casts up mire and dirt.
Peace! Peace! they say; But there is no peace.
Without Christ there is no peace; no rest.

Simply incorrect and therefore simply, not true.

Note to the confused Baptist:
Christ is NOT the believer's Sabbath— <<He is our rest.>>

Why?
Note to the confused Baptist: <<Because Christ is a person and not a day. He is living; a real person, not an inanimate day.>>

That’s better!
So yes, <<There remains therefore Christ. We rest in Him. All who come to him shall find rest.>>

Note to the confused Baptist:
But He is NOT, <<our sabbath>>!

Why?
Because that’s what Hebrews 4 says with using TWO widely different meaning words,

One, ‘sabbatismos’ for <<our sabbath>> which is no more than <“OUR-Sabbath-Day-KEEPING”— nothing than <our> “sabbatism”—“THE PEOPLE of God’s culture- // observance-of-the-Sabbath-DAY”.

Two, ‘katapausis’ about ten times used in Hebrews for precisely Christ Who is “The Rest-of-God”— <<our Eternal Rest>>.
<If you don't have Christ you will never have rest.> If the People’s Sabbath-observance does not have Christ the People of God do not have “the day The Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”, but <<like the wicked are like the troubled sea that casts up mire and dirt.
Peace! Peace! they say; But there is no peace.>> And like <<without Christ there is no peace; no rest>>, without Christ there is no Christian believers’ “Sabbaths’-Feast-of-Christ” and The People of God go ‘un-nourished’ and without “eating and drinking of Christ the Substance”.

 

[BobRyan]

CONTEXT:
Christ is the believer's Sabbath.

First of all what a great text - if you were not quoting you.

And then Christ speaks in His Word "From Sabbath to Sabbath" shall "ALL mankind come before ME to Worship" Is 66:23.

Instead of saying that in the new earth "no NEED to come before Me and worship from Sabbath to Sabbath in the New Earth for all eternity - since I AM your Sabbath".

Notice that in Mark 7 the Jews come up with this great idea of "giving to God" - giving to HIS temple - rather than giving to elderly parents. And Christ says that no matter how lofty the goal claimed for the project of setting aside one of the Commandments of God - it is wrong.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

First of all what a great text - if you were not quoting you.

You quoted the one part that was not from me. Here is what I said:

"Christ is a person and not a day. He is living; a real person, not an inanimate day.
There remains therefore Christ. We rest in Him. All who come to him shall find rest. He is our sabbath; our eternal rest. If you don't have Christ you will never have rest.
The wicked are like the troubled sea that casts up mire and dirt.
Peace! Peace! they say; But there is no peace.
Without Christ there is no peace; no rest."

And then Christ speaks in His Word "From Sabbath to Sabbath" shall "ALL mankind come before ME to Worship" Is 66:23.

Instead of saying that in the new earth "no NEED to come before Me and worship from Sabbath to Sabbath in the New Earth for all eternity - since I AM your Sabbath".

Why do you butcher scripture?
First, Isaiah 66 is talking of future events that have nothing to do with today. They are irrelevant to us.
Second, your indirect reference to Heb.4 is the truth that is taught that Christ is our Sabbath; we (who are saved) have already entered into his rest. If one has not entered into his rest they are not saved and without Christ. He is a person, not an inanimate day.

Notice that in Mark 7 the Jews come up with this great idea of "giving to God" - giving to HIS temple - rather than giving to elderly parents. And Christ says that no matter how lofty the goal claimed for the project of setting aside one of the Commandments of God - it is wrong.

in Christ,

Bob

The passage you refer to says nothing of the Sabbath. It is a rabbit trail. Apparently you like them.

 

[BobRyan]

Notice that in Mark 7 the Jews come up with this great idea of "giving to God" - giving to HIS temple - rather than giving to elderly parents. And Christ says that no matter how lofty the goal claimed for the project of setting aside one of the Commandments of God - it is wrong.

The passage you refer to says nothing of the Sabbath. It is a rabbit trail. Apparently you like them.

Turns out - most people can admit that the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments.

I merely point out that the teaching in Mark 7 turns out to have something to do with the error of setting aside one of the commandments of God - (in that case the 5th commandment) - and replacing it with the "traditions of man".

[FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT]
” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Eph 6
6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; (inside the unit of TEN of course)
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Hence the title of this thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

And then Christ speaks in His Word "From Sabbath to Sabbath" shall "ALL mankind come before ME to Worship" Is 66:23.

Instead of saying that in the new earth "no NEED to come before Me and worship from Sabbath to Sabbath in the New Earth for all eternity - since I AM your Sabbath".

Why do you butcher scripture?
First, Isaiah 66 is talking of future events that have nothing to do with today. They are irrelevant to us.

Apparently you use the term "butcher" to mean in real life "you bring up the inconvenient details of scripture that I am trying to ignore".

The "inconvenient detail" in this case being.

1. The scope for the Sabbath commandment is set EVEN in the OT - by OT prophets as applying to "ALL mankind".

2. God's word is that "from Sabbath to Sabbath" all "MANKIND" is to come before Him to worship - for all of eternity, in the New Earth (contrary to your "don't worship from Sabbath to Sabbath since I AM your Sabbath." In your model Coming before the God "who does not change" from Sabbath to Sabbath (for all of eternity) to worship Him - is not something God wants or cares about since you imagine a text by God saying " I AM your Sabbath so don't keep My 4th commandment")

3. Isaiah just finished telling us about the gentiles in the OT that are blessed by God for keeping the 4th Commandment (In Is 56)

4. And in the NT Jesus said "the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind" Mark 2:27 not "Made for just Jews".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by DHK

CONTEXT:
Christ is the believer's Sabbath.

First of all what a great text - if you were not quoting you.

You quoted the one part that was not from me. Here is what I said:

"Christ is a person and not a day. He is living; a real person, not an inanimate day.
There remains therefore Christ. We rest in Him. All who come to him shall find rest. He is our sabbath; our eternal rest. If you don't have Christ you will never have rest.
The wicked are like the troubled sea that casts up mire and dirt.
Peace! Peace! they say; But there is no peace.
Without Christ there is no peace; no rest."

.

All of which is fine. Except the Bible never says that Christ is our Sabbath or that He in some way replaces the 4th commandment Sabbath for mankind.

Rather in Matt 5 Jesus said not to imagine that His work is to abolish the least part of His Law.

Jesus marries the two in the form "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments". John 14:15

Same thing He said in Ex 20:6 "of those who Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" (God's statement made as part of the actual TEN Commandments)

1John 5:2-3 makes a similar point.

Hence it is the saints that "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

All of which is fine. Except the Bible never says that Christ is our Sabbath or that He in some way replaces the 4th commandment Sabbath for mankind.

And the Bible never mentions sabbath in the entire book of Genesis. But it does mention rest. It says that God "rested" on the seventh day.
It does not say that God "sabbbathed" on the seventh day. No such word. Why? Christ is our Sabbath. He is our rest. We enter into His rest.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
--Christ is our rest. How many times does he have to say it; or don't you believe him?

Hebrews 4:9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered into his rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. (WEB)
--The KJV word for "rest" there is the word for "Sabbath". The sabbath is Christ. Christ is our Sabbath. He who has entered into his rest (sabbath) also rested from his works.
Salvation is not by works. That teaching is no more clearer than it is here. When one is saved it is not by keeping the Sabbath, and not maintained by keeping the Sabbath. The Sabbath is done away with. We live by faith, not of works. We keep the sabbath no longer; we rest in Christ; living by grace through faith.

Rather in Matt 5 Jesus said not to imagine that His work is to abolish the least part of His Law.

A complete non sequitor.

Jesus marries the two in the form "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments". John 14:15

Through all these years you still fail to distinguish between "God's law" and what Christ refers to as "My Commandments." When he uses personal pronoun he is never referring to OT law. He is definitely not referring to the Sabbath or the Ten Commandments. Those are not "His Commandments."

Same thing He said in Ex 20:6 "of those who Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" (God's statement made as part of the actual TEN Commandments)

And that is what Jehovah said to the Israelites. The fourth commandment was never given to Gentiles. Exodus 31 makes that clear, but that is a chapter you stay clear from.

1John 5:2-3 makes a similar point.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
--His commandments have nothing to do with the OT law neither the Sabbath.
Why are you taking Scripture out of context?

Hence it is the saints that "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

More scripture taken out of context--nothing about the sabbath there either--only in your vain imagination.

 

[BobRyan]

And the Bible never mentions sabbath in the entire book of Genesis. But it does mention rest. It says that God "rested" on the seventh day.
It does not say that God "sabbbathed" on the seventh day.

In Gen 2:1-3 the 7th day that is sanctified and set apart - made Holy and called Sabbath according to Ex 20:11 is Adam's second day - not his seventh day.

Thus Adam did not get a "one day in 7 rule" in Gen 2 - what He got was "God selects the day even if it you have not yet worked six days"

It is the very day itself that is singled out - and there is no such thing as a "just pick one day in seven" text in all of scripture.

No such word. Why? Christ is our Sabbath. He is our rest. We enter into His rest.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

That is a good pre-cross fact showing that while the 4th commandment is in full force - (even by your standards) the rest that is promised in Christ also applies.

One does not cancel the other.

Thus Jesus could say "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" and not "If you Love Me ignore My Commandments".

As He said also in Ex 20:6 to those who "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" as part of the actual Ten Commandments.

No wonder John describes the saints as those who "KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" in Rev 14:12 and in 1John 5:2-3.

Our rest in Christ - does not abolish our duty to "KEEP the Commandments of God" - that is done in Christ.

As Paul points out in Rom 3:31 "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith?? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

For as we find in Romans 8:5-8 it is only the lost person that "does not submit to the Law of God neither indeed can he".

God's statement on the Law of God and the walk of the saints is also found in Prov 28:9 - which is a big warning sign to anyone thinking of walking all over the Law of God. So big in fact - that I almost never quote it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Through all these years you still fail to distinguish between "God's law" and what Christ refers to as "My Commandments." When he uses personal pronoun he is never referring to OT law. ...

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
--His commandments have nothing to do with the OT law

According to Christ in Mark 7:6-13 the Ten Commandments are the "Commandments of God".

The very thing you want to claim does not exist.

In 1John 2:3-6 the Commandments of Christ and the 1John 5:2-3 Commandments of God are the same.

John 5:30 Christ claims that His Words are in fact not HIS but the words of God the Father.

God is the one speaking in Ex 20 - it is the voice of God Himself.

Mark 7 each one of the Ten Commandments are the "Commandment of God" and the "Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT]
” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is tobe put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your traditionwhich you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”




Your complaint above argues against the very nature of scripture itself.




2Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture given by inspiration from GOD and is profitable for doctrine and correction"

And of course Christ HIMSELF argued that HIS words are not at all in contrast to the Father - but that He only speaks that which the Father gives Him.

2Peter 1:20-21 NO scripture is in fact "a matter of one's own interpretation but holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God"



10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10


The NT saints tested all doctrine "sola scriptura" Acts 17:11 - and that "scriptura" was primarily OT until the end of the first century.

 

[The Biblicist]

Simply incorrect and therefore simply, not true.

Note to the confused Baptist:
Christ is NOT the believer's Sabbath— <<He is our rest.>>

Why?
Note to the confused Baptist: <<Because Christ is a person and not a day. He is living; a real person, not an inanimate day.>>

That’s better!
So yes, <<There remains therefore Christ. We rest in Him. All who come to him shall find rest.>>

Note to the confused Baptist:
But He is NOT, <<our sabbath>>!

Why?
Because that’s what Hebrews 4 says with using TWO widely different meaning words,

One, ‘sabbatismos’ for <<our sabbath>> which is no more than <“OUR-Sabbath-Day-KEEPING”— nothing than <our> “sabbatism”—“THE PEOPLE of God’s culture- // observance-of-the-Sabbath-DAY”.

Two, ‘katapausis’ about ten times used in Hebrews for precisely Christ Who is “The Rest-of-God”— <<our Eternal Rest>>.
<If you don't have Christ you will never have rest.> If the People’s Sabbath-observance does not have Christ the People of God do not have “the day The Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”, but <<like the wicked are like the troubled sea that casts up mire and dirt.
Peace! Peace! they say; But there is no peace.>> And like <<without Christ there is no peace; no rest>>, without Christ there is no Christian believers’ “Sabbaths’-Feast-of-Christ” and The People of God go ‘un-nourished’ and without “eating and drinking of Christ the Substance”.

In the New Testament the law has been reduced to one solitary principle "love" and that is what is written on the heart in new birth not any specific "day" Saturday or Sunday. You will never find a heathen in the world today or at any time who only from his conscience comes to the conclusion that the Seventh or First day of the week is to be a Sabbath. Can't be done! However, in every culture in ever generation of this world there is evidence of "love" for fellow men (family, friends, tribe) and worship toward some kind of god.

Jesus is the true "rest" whereas the law at best is merely an inanimate PRINCIPLE that reflects the moral nature of God but is inferior to what it reflects - God's moral nature. The law in its purest form is manifested in the Person and moral character of Jesus Christ:

Rom. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ

Go learn what this text means! The righteousness of God was made manifest in the Law of God, "but now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested." What is "NOW" manifested without the Law is "being witnessed by the law and the prophets" or the righteousness found in the Incarnate Person of Jesus Christ and which is obtained by faith in His Person "even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ." Jesus is the fulfillment of the law incarnate, in character, in life, in action, in Person, in full satisfation of all of its demands and that revealed righteousness of God which the Law only reflects or manifests is obtained solely by faith in Christ.


The Sabbath is another EXTERNAL manifestation of God's righteousness utlimately found in the PERSON of Jesus Christ. All the ten commandments are EXTERNAL manifestations of the righteousness of God. What is written in the heart is nothing EXTERNAL in form or observation but the PRINCIPLE that sums up the Law and the prophets = LOVE - as that is the only possible form of God's law - His righteousness that can be written on the heart and therefore we are "created in righteousness and true holiness" after the image of God in the inward man.

When man's soul and body enter into "REST" as his spirit has entered into "rest" by faith in Jesus Christ then ETERNAL SABBATH or a new heaven and earth in perfect harmony with God shall be attained. But make no mistake that perfect and eternal rest for spirit, soul and body is "in Christ" due to His Person and work.

 

[DHK]

According to Christ in Mark 7:6-13 the Ten Commandments are the "Commandments of God".

The very thing you want to claim does not exist.

In 1John 2:3-6 the Commandments of Christ and the 1John 5:2-3 Commandments of God are the same.

John 5:30 Christ claims that His Words are in fact not HIS but the words of God the Father.

God is the one speaking in Ex 20 - it is the voice of God Himself.

Mark 7 each one of the Ten Commandments are the "Commandment of God" and the "Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT]
” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is tobe put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your traditionwhich you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Your complaint above argues against the very nature of scripture itself.

One of my complaints is that you butcher and destroy Scripture making them mean something entirely opposite than what they were intended and thus obfuscating the true sense of the passage.
What this passage means has nothing to do with the sabbath.
Jesus is speaking of Jewish tradition that is contrary to the Word.
The one he mentions is "Corban" a tradition (contrary to the Word), that allowed them to get out of the responsibility to take care of their parents when they get old. That has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

Another example of this "man-made tradition" that transgressed the law of God:
If a man should cross the path of a Rabbi and sneeze at the same time, he should be punished.
--Such man-made laws were unnecessary and put a burden on the people. They were outside of the law of God and in many cases contrary to it. They had nothing to do with the sabbath. Thus you take this passage of Scripture and totally pervert it.

 

[BobRyan]

One of my complaints is that you butcher and destroy Scripture making them mean something entirely opposite than what they were intended and thus obfuscating the true sense of the passage.

So here is the actual text - where Christ upholds the Ten Commandments -

[FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT]
” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is tobe put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your traditionwhich you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Feel free to pick it apart.

So far your only response is the wild notion that Christ's precross defense of the TEN commandments in Mark 7 - could not possibly include a defense of the 4th commandment - just the NINE!

Which is rediculous even by your own doctrine that will at least admit that all 10 Commandments were valid before the cross.

And you want to "blame this on me"???

I find your logic illusive at that point.

What this passage means has nothing to do with the sabbath.
Jesus is speaking of Jewish tradition that is contrary to the Word.

But Jesus used specific terms "The WORD of God" the "Commandment of God".

This is a perfect illustration of the religious traditions of man - trying to set aside one of the Commandments of God.

Turns 0ut - (as we all know) the 4th commandment is one of the Ten Commandments --

1. Spoken by God Himself.

2. And "made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 according to Christ




10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10




in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

So here is the actual text - where Christ upholds the Ten Commandments -

[FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT]
” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is tobe put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your traditionwhich you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Feel free to pick it apart.

So far your only response is the wild notion that Christ's precross defense of the TEN commandments in Mark 7 - could not possibly include a defense of the 4th commandment - just the NINE!

Which is rediculous even by your own doctrine that will at least admit that all 10 Commandments were valid before the cross.

And you want to "blame this on me"???

I find your logic illusive at that point.

But Jesus used specific terms "The WORD of God" the "Commandment of God".

This is a perfect illustration of the religious traditions of man - trying to set aside one of the Commandments of God.

Turns 0ut - (as we all know) the 4th commandment is one of the Ten Commandments --

1. Spoken by God Himself.

2. And "made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 according to Christ




10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10




in Christ,

Bob

Your argument:
"But Jesus said the "commandment of God."
As if to imply the Sabbath. Ludicrous!!

The commandment of God:
The only one that he was referring to specifically in this context is the one "to honor your father and mother." There is no other commandment given. You cannot read into Scripture that which is not there.

"The commandment of God."
There were 613 of them. How many of them do you want me to list.
He was speaking pre-cross and to the Jews. He was contrasting the laws of the Word (the legitimate 613 laws) as compared to the thousands or rabbinic laws found in the Talmud and other sources. This had nothing to do with the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Your argument:
"But Jesus said the "commandment of God."
As if to imply the Sabbath. Ludicrous!!

The commandment of God:
The only one that he was referring to specifically in this context is the one "to honor your father and mother." There is no other commandment given. You cannot read into Scripture that which is not there.

"The commandment of God."
There were 613 of them.

1. 1023 of them in the New Testament. How many of them do you want me to list? 100? 200? 614?

But in the Bible the counting of the Commandments is done by God and HE says there is "TEN" the phrase "TEN Commandments" is God's own choice -- not mine.

2. Christ said that they were not allowed to set aside the Commandment of God. Obviously there is more than one - you claim there is 613 - the Bible says there is the "TEN Commandments" and Christ points out the 5th one in this case.

3. The wild assumption of the form "Well that restriction Christ gives only applies to the 5th commandment, so then we are free to set aside the first or second commandments (or any other one I might wish to pick)" would be good news to Catholics when it comes to graven images. Just exclude it from whatever you find in Mark 7 so that Jesus is most certainly NOT defending that particular "Commandment of God" from man-made-tradition replacement.

Or better yet - as DHK points out above - why not go after the one where Jesus said it was "MADE for Mankind" Mark 2:27 prior to this statement in Mark 7.

Are you sure that is the kind of game you want to play with Mark 7??

Really??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

1. 1023 of them in the New Testament. How many of them do you want me to list? 100? 200? 614?

But in the Bible the counting of the Commandments is done by God and HE says there is "TEN" the phrase "TEN Commandments" is God's own choice -- not mine.

2. Christ said that they were not allowed to set aside the Commandment of God. Obviously there is more than one - you claim there is 613 - the Bible says there is the "TEN Commandments" and Christ points out the 5th one in this case.

3. The wild assumption of the form "Well that restriction Christ gives only applies to the 5th commandment, so then we are free to set aside the first or second commandments (or any other one I might wish to pick)" would be good news to Catholics when it comes to graven images. Just exclude it from whatever you find in Mark 7 so that Jesus is most certainly NOT defending that particular "Commandment of God" from man-made-tradition replacement.

Or better yet - as DHK points out above - why not go after the one where Jesus said it was "MADE for Mankind" Mark 2:27 prior to this statement in Mark 7.

Are you sure that is the kind of game you want to play with Mark 7??

Really??

in Christ,

Bob

There is nothing in Mark chapter seven that talks of the Sabbath.
It talks just as much about golf and cars as it does about the Sabbath--zilch!

 

[BobRyan]

Mark seven Calls the Commandments of God - the Word of God and condemns the man made traditions of religious leaders that tries to set aside one of the Commandments of God - and replace it with man-made traditions.

Pretty obvious.

Blindly imagining that "golf carts" are just as much one of the TEN Commandments as the 4th Commandment -- or that the Ten Commandments are no more the "Commandments of God" than a "golf cart" - - does not carry much weight with objective unbiased Bible students.

Matt 5 adds an interesting perspective -

[FONT=&quot]Matt 5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]


And so also does Prov 28:9

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Mark seven Calls the Commandments of God - the Word of God and condemns the man made traditions of religious leaders that tries to set aside one of the Commandments of God - and replace it with man-made traditions.

Pretty obvious.

Blindly imagining that "golf carts" are just as much one of the TEN Commandments as the 4th Commandment -- or that the Ten Commandments are no more the "Commandments of God" than a "golf cart" - - does not carry much weight with objective unbiased Bible students.

Matt 5 adds an interesting perspective -

[FONT=&quot]Matt 5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]


And so also does Prov 28:9

in Christ,

Bob

"Corban" was a tradition of the Pharisees, a tradition of men:

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is tobe put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’

Time and time again you pull this out of context and apply it to the sabbath, when it is not talking about that at all. He uses one example--Honor your father and mother--to show how they are exalting their traditions above the Word of God.

"Corban" which he has already defined, was one of "their traditions.
I gave you another example: "Sneezing in the presence of a Rabbi."
You can look up many of these on the WEB. They are ridiculous and burdensome. They are not in the Bible for they are extra-biblical. In many cases they are used to get around the law of God, just as Jesus pointed out.

Thus you have misused Scripture. You have butchered and destroyed this passage using it for your own devious purposes. That is not rightly dividing the word of truth. Truly, you should be ashamed of the way you treat God's Holy Word!

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT]
” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is tobe put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

...

Even your own doctrine will at least admit that all 10 Commandments were valid before the cross.



But Jesus used specific terms "The WORD of God" the "Commandment of God".

This is a perfect illustration of the religious traditions of man - trying to set aside one of the Commandments of God.


He condemns the practice "in general" when He says "and you do many things such as that.”

And we both know it.

He does not at all imply "you can do this with the other Commandments - just not with that one".

And we both know it.

The commandment of God:
The only one that he was referring to specifically in this context is the one "to honor your father and mother." There is no other commandment given.

He condemns the practice "in general" when He says "and you do many things such as that.”

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is tobe put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

It just doesn't get any easier than that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Indeed -- I found that entertaining. Not sure how far you thought that would hold up as a response.
Bob

The above (sneezing before a Rabbi), along with "Corban" and extra bibilcal excessive ritualistic washings, and many other extra biblical traditions went contrary to the Word of God. There is nothing here about the Sabbath or breaking the Sabbath. You are reading into the passage something that is not there.

What specific tradition of theirs broke the Sabbath?
What Sabbath tradition was Jesus referring to?
You are pulling this out of context and destroying its meaning.

 

[BobRyan]

The above (sneezing before a Rabbi), along with "Corban" and extra bibilcal excessive ritualistic washings, and many other extra biblical traditions went contrary to the Word of God. There is nothing here about the Sabbath

As we both know - my claim from Mark 7 is that the principle is established - of not setting aside one of the Commandments of God for the sake of the religious traditions.

And we both also know that at the time Jesus was speaking in Mark 7 the TEN Commandments were indeed in full force.

As we both know this is before any resurrection event that one might construe has deleting one or more of the Ten Commandments.

This is an air tight example illustrating the Point that Christ refers to the Commandments - not only as the "Command of God" but also as the "Word of God" and rejects the notion that man-made tradition has the authority to upstage or replace them.

And we both know that the TEN Commandments are unique in all of scripture in that they were not only written by the finger of God in stone and given to man -but they were spoken directly by God to His people at Sinai. The entire congregation.

And we both know that when Paul says in Eph 6 that the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise" that his statement is only true within that "unique document in stone" - for it is NOT true that Ex 20:12 is the first promise in the Bible itself or in the OT or in Genesis - thru - Exodus or even in Exodus by itself.

in Christ,

Bob