To Obey God rather than tradition is legalism? Really??

[DHK]

You argue that not to be in rebellion against the 4th commandment is displeasing to the God who gave it??

Your logic is illusive at that point.

By contrast - your own sunday-keeping D.L. Moody - condemns your own opposition to the Word of God in that regard. If even HE notices the gaping flaw in your argument - how much more should I who am not a Sunday-keeping Baptist!

This is wrong, Bob, just plain wrong. I have told you not to do this any longer. Moody does not believe in the Sabbath. He redefines the Sabbath. The Sabbath, the very word "Sabbath" meant something entirely different then. Therefore you are misstating what he believes.
Don't do it again.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
You argue that not to be in rebellion against the 4th commandment is displeasing to the God who gave it??

Your logic is illusive at that point.

By contrast - your own sunday-keeping D.L. Moody - condemns your own opposition to the Word of God in that regard. If even HE notices the gaping flaw in your argument - how much more should I who am not a Sunday-keeping Baptist!

This is wrong, Bob, just plain wrong. I have told you not to do this any longer. Moody does not believe in the Sabbath. He redefines the Sabbath. .

Is it the view of the Baptist Board Admin - that the term "Sunday-keeping" actually means "saturday Sabbath Keeping" and should not be applied to D.L. Moody or else it is some sort of language violation?

I never would have guessed it would come to this on the BaptistBoard.

have a nice day.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
You argue that not to be in rebellion against the 4th commandment is displeasing to the God who gave it??

Your logic is illusive at that point.

By contrast - your own sunday-keeping D.L. Moody - condemns your own opposition to the Word of God in that regard. If even HE notices the gaping flaw in your argument - how much more should I who am not a Sunday-keeping Baptist!





Is it the view of the Baptist Board Admin - that the term "Sunday-keeping" actually means "saturday Sabbath Keeping" and should not be applied to D.L. Moody or else it is some sort of language violation?

I never would have guessed it would come to this on the BaptistBoard.

have a nice day.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, I don't think you have read his message in its entirety have you?
You just read the parts pertinent to your beliefs.

Here are the facts.
The Jewish Sabbath, and the day that we all define as Sabbath, including you, is "Saturday." No one today defines Sunday as "Sabbath," therefore your post is deceitful for most people don't realize that Moody didn't change the meaning.

It was common in that day to take the meaning of Sunday and define it as "Christian Sabbath." But that is not common today.

Even with those beliefs what did Moody believe?
He urged his people to come to church on Sunday and avoid working at their secular jobs. To him that was "keeping the sabbath," and that was about all. He did not require his congregation to prepare food on the day before, for example such as you do. He was not a legalist.

Next, he himself said: "Sunday (sabbath) is my work day; I work more on the sabbath than on any other day."
--If Moody worked on the Sabbath how did he keep the Sabbath?
He didn't keep the Sabbath. You have him lying, or more to the point you are lying about him and it has to stop!

 

[BobRyan]

No one today defines Sunday as "Sabbath," therefore your post is deceitful for most people don't realize that Moody didn't change the meaning.

It was common in that day to take the meaning of Sunday and define it as "Christian Sabbath." But that is not common today.

Even with those beliefs what did Moody believe?
He urged his people to come to church on Sunday

I use the term "your own sunday-keeping D.L. Moody - condemns..." pointing to the obvious fact that Moody was not promoting Saturday Sabbath keeping but rather promoted Sunday keeping.

I also pointed out in my post that I strongly object to Moody's efforts to bend-wrench the Sabbath commandment and make it point to Sunday.

The one thing I did that DOES use language you object to - is I QUOTE Moody wihtout EDITING his own text to fit your objections to what he said.

Where I crossed the line was in QUOTING MOODY - in areas where elements of his beliefs do not fit yours even though he promotes Sunday.

As it turns out - not all sunday-keeping Baptists agree on every single point with each other. (As you will admit when you find that it suits your purpose). However - inexplicably - You are now using this basic fact -- to attack me - as if the source of Moody's difference with you in the words HE chooses to use in HIS sermon --- is me.

And that my friend makes no sense at all.

But if that is the way things can be bent here - it limits my ability to post - because you would go so far as to blame me - when you differ with one of your own.

I have a hard enough time taking care with my own words used on this board given all the rancor we get from a few Baptist posters -- without having the added hassle of having you blame me for the words a Baptist like D.L. Moody chooses to use in his own text.

I wish you all a good day.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

I wish you all a good day.

in Christ,

Bob
[/I]

Does this mean that the false prophet following cultist is leaving the Baptist Board to us Christians and taking his false gospel elsewhere?

One can only hope!:thumbsup:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This is wrong, Bob, just plain wrong. I have told you not to do this any longer. Moody does not believe in the Sabbath. He redefines the Sabbath. The Sabbath, the very word "Sabbath" meant something entirely different then. Therefore you are misstating what he believes.
Don't do it again.

Yes, and Moody et al misstated what the Word of God states. Who was Moody or whoever to <redefine the Sabbath> whatever <the very word "Sabbath" meant ... then>?

The Sabbath is not what 'he' / 'we' whoever <believes in> or does not <believe in>.

Jesus Christ defined, redefined and stated and re-stated and re-instated "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD", God THUS CONCERNING SPAKE: And God the day the Seventh Day rested from all his works."

Now "rested His Name Being The Most Holy Place", not "up again" "IN THE SABBATH before the First Day of the week" "THUS" -- as "God in time past through his prophets spoke", then the God who "in these last days speaks to us by the Son", "the Son of Man (who) is LORD of the Sabbath Day" --, all along must have been a liar.

Who tries to make the LORD GOD a liar?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Does this mean that the false prophet following cultist is leaving the Baptist Board to us Christians and taking his false gospel elsewhere?

One can only hope!:thumbsup:

What example of his own kind of 'Christian' ... thumbsdown

 

[DHK]

Now "rested His Name Being The Most Holy Place", not "up again" "IN THE SABBATH before the First Day of the week" "THUS" -- as "God in time past through his prophets spoke", then the God who "in these last days speaks to us by the Son", "the Son of Man (who) is LORD of the Sabbath Day" --, all along must have been a liar.

Who tries to make the LORD GOD a liar?

He is Lord of the Sabbath Day, and of the First Day, and of the Second day, and of every day.
He is Lord of the earth, Lord of the universe, Lord of all, Lord of lords.

When Christ said he was Lord of the Sabbath, he was rebuking the Pharisees who put the Israelites under bondage. They made the Sabbath day a burden to the people. It was not to be a burden but a day of rest. The statement is a rebuke to the Pharisees, but you take it out of its context and try and make it mean something other than its intended meaning. If you are going to quote the verse, then I suggest you quote it in the entirety of its context.

He is Lord of the Sabbath, because he is Lord of all. It is not the Pharisees that were the Lord of the Sabbath, but Christ. That was his teaching--his rebuke to them. The verse has no such relevance to us today for you are taking it out of its historical context.

The sabbath was never given to Gentile believers to observe.
It is clear from Exodus 31:16 that it is a sign of the covenant between Jehovah and the Israelites and to their generations forever.

 

[BobRyan]

He is Lord of the Sabbath Day, and of the First Day, .

Mark 2:28 says that Christ is "Lord of the Sabbath" - speaking of Saturday - the Sabbath - the same day kept as the 4th commandment "from Creation to the resurrection" even by non-SDA standards.

Isaiah 58:13 says that the Sabbath is the "Holy Day of the LORD"

No titles given to week-day one in actual scripture. No claim in scripture emphasizing Christ as "Lord of week day 1"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Mark 2:28 says that Christ is "Lord of the Sabbath" - speaking of Saturday - the Sabbath - the same day kept as the 4th commandment "from Creation to the resurrection" even by non-SDA standards.

Isaiah 58:13 says that the Sabbath is the "Holy Day of the LORD"

No titles given to week-day one in actual scripture. No claim in scripture emphasizing Christ as "Lord of week day 1"

in Christ,

Bob

So what is your point? Are you claiming to be a Jew.
Exodus 20--Moses was speaking to the Jews.
Exodus 31--the Sabbath was given to the Jews only and only to the Jews.
Mark 2:28 is pre-cross; Jesus is speaking to the Jews.
Isaiah 58--Jehovah is speaking to Israel.

Never is the Sabbath given to the Gentiles. Never is it for Gentile believers in this dispensation.

 

[BobRyan]

Mark 2:28 says that Christ is "Lord of the Sabbath" - speaking of Saturday - the Sabbath - the same day kept as the 4th commandment "from Creation to the resurrection" even by non-SDA standards.

Isaiah 58:13 says that the Sabbath is the "Holy Day of the LORD"

No titles given to week-day one in actual scripture. No claim in scripture emphasizing Christ as "Lord of week day 1"

So what is your point? Are you claiming to be a Jew.

I claim to be a member of the group "mankind" - "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath" says the Lord "shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23.

Exodus 20--Moses was speaking to the Jews.

He told them not to make idols or take God's name in vain etc.

He said to "Love God and keep His Commandments" Ex 20:6.

Jesus said that in John 14:15 -- as it turns out, when He was speaking to the Jews.

Isaiah 56 - the foreigners are blessed for keeping the 4th commandment.

Is 66 "All mankind" is to keep the Sabbath.

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith argues this point saying that the Sabbath day kept as God gave it in actual scripture is "The same day from creation to the resurrection".

I think we all know that by now.

acts of desperation not withstanding.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No one today defines Sunday as "Sabbath,"

Just about all my Presbyterian and 'Gereformeerde' or 'Dopper' brethren and sisters <today define Sunday as "Sabbath"> ---AGAINST OUR GREAT AND BELOVED JOHN CALVIN!!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

... himself said: "Sunday (sabbath) is my work day; I work more on the sabbath than on any other day."
--If Moody worked on the Sabbath how did he keep the Sabbath?
He didn't keep the Sabbath. You have him lying, or more to the point you are lying about him and it has to stop!

It is one thing to 'keep the Sabbath'; it is another to BELIEVE the Sabbath.

Moody TRANSGRESSED against GOD'S WORD - with defiance-- not in faith.

And the truth Moody was a great preacher does not make him sinless or an example for believers to follow in his DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD IN THIS MATTER.

 

[DHK]

Mark 2:28 says that Christ is "Lord of the Sabbath" - speaking of Saturday - the Sabbath - the same day kept as the 4th commandment "from Creation to the resurrection" even by non-SDA standards.

You fail to comprehend the meaning of this verse.

Of course Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday).
He is also Lord of Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and every other day.
He is Lord of all creation. He created it.
He is Lord of all. There isn't anything that He did not create that He is not Lord of. He is Lord of all. What don't you understand about that?
The verse is not a command to keep the Sabbath!

Second, you fail to comprehend the historical context.
This was a rebuke to the Pharisees. The Sabbath was to be a day of rest.
The Pharisees had made the Sabbath "Lord" or Master over the Jews.
They had it backwards. They had put many burdens on the Jews, so many that it had almost become impossible for them to keep. It was burdensome, not a day of rest at all. Thus the rebuke of Jesus that it was HE that was the Lord of the Sabbath and not the Pharisees.
Christ would give them rest; the Pharisees couldn't.

Third, you fail to comprehend the immediate context.
The immediate context was their "traditions."
Their traditions were outside of the Bible--the burdens that they put on the people. Jesus gave an example using the practice of "Corban."
Their extra-Biblical traditions had made the Sabbath Lord over the people instead of a day of rest. It was Christ that was Lord, and He alone would give rest.

Isaiah 58:13 says that the Sabbath is the "Holy Day of the LORD"

The Sabbath, according to Exodus 31, was given to the Jews. This verse verifies that.

No titles given to week-day one in actual scripture. No claim in scripture emphasizing Christ as "Lord of week day 1"

And your point is???

I claim to be a member of the group "mankind" - "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27.

So was the world, the universe, all the animals, and every other day.
Your point is moot.
God told man that he was to have dominion over all of creation.
According to Exodus 31, (which you conveniently ignore) the Sabbath was given as perpetual sign between Jehovah and the Israelites forever.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath" says the Lord "shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23.

SHALL means future.
ALL mankind does not yet worship Christ. This entire verse is non sequitor.
It has nothing to do with the here and now.

He told them not to make idols or take God's name in vain etc.

He said to "Love God and keep His Commandments" Ex 20:6.

Yes, He told them, the Jews. He was speaking to Israel. The Lord gave them 613 commands to obey. We are not under that law today.

Jesus said that in John 14:15 -- as it turns out, when He was speaking to the Jews.

No he wasn't. He was speaking to his disciples.
In chapter 13 Jesus washed the feet of his disciples. They celebrated the Passover or the Last Supper. They were still in the Upper Room at this point. Judas had left, but they hadn't. If you go down to the last verse of chapter 14 this is what you read:

John 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
--Then they departed from the Upper Room.
In verse 15 he addresses his disciples.
There were not 1050 commands from Jesus. There were very few. He says: "Keep MY commands."

Isaiah 56 - the foreigners are blessed for keeping the 4th commandment.

Is 66 "All mankind" is to keep the Sabbath.

So what! This is completely off topic. It has to do with the Millennial Kingdom which is yet future. Deal with those verses that are relevant for us today. Does ALL mankind worship Christ today? The Muslims? The Hindus?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Of course Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday).
He is also Lord of Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and every other day.
He is Lord of all creation. He created it.
He is Lord of all. There isn't anything that He did not create that He is not Lord of. He is Lord of all. What don't you understand about that?
The verse is not a command to keep the Sabbath!

God did not create <Saturday> or <Sunday, Monday, Tuesday> all which are the creation of man-worshipping of "days, months, seasons, years -- beggarly first-principle idols" of the former walk of godless heathendom.

But yes, <The verse is not a command to keep the Sabbath> because it is Christ who is LORD OF THE SABBATH and the Living Command-WORD OF GOD to keep the Sabbath.

Obviously there isn't anything that you understand about that.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

you fail to comprehend the historical context.
This was a rebuke to the Pharisees. The Sabbath was to be a day of rest.
The Pharisees had made the Sabbath "Lord" or Master over the Jews.
They had it backwards. They had put many burdens on the Jews, so many that it had almost become impossible for them to keep. It was burdensome, not a day of rest at all. Thus the rebuke of Jesus that it was HE that was the L

Dear DHK, herewith you contradict and demolish each and every 'argument' you have ever raised against the validity of "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" for Believers "The People of God", YOURSELF!
No one needs say anything more or better than you have.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

the immediate context.
The immediate context was their "traditions."
Their traditions were outside of the Bible--the burdens that they put on the people. Jesus gave an example using the practice of "Corban."
Their extra-Biblical traditions had made the Sabbath Lord over the people instead of a day of rest. It was Christ that was Lord, and He alone would give rest.

For sure you know the Scriptures, DHK; and I'm sure you thoroughly understand the Scriptures despite is seems you do not.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quote:
Isaiah 58:13 says that the Sabbath is the "Holy Day of the LORD"

The Sabbath, according to Exodus 31, was given to the Jews. This verse verifies that.

Do you deny what <this verse> <says> and <verifies>, <<that the Sabbath is the "Holy Day of the LORD">>?!

You're not serious ...?!

Is there not some pedestal under your feet you should get down from for us earthlings to be able to hear what you say?!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

When it comes to the hermeneutics of Sabbath-Scriptures Sunday-protagonists invariably expose their feet of clay which no cloak of righteousness can Rock-proof reach. Eina!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"From Sabbath to Sabbath" says the Lord "shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23.
SHALL means future.
ALL mankind does not yet worship Christ. This entire verse is non sequitor.
It has nothing to do with the here and now.

Obviously not. It has everything to do with the last Sabbath Day of this dispensation which will be the first Sabbath of the coming dispensation WHEN ALL mankind shall either be going to worship service of God OR will be carcasses lying along the way to Christ Assemblies in that day.

Which would you have preferred?