saturneptune
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What does believing in God's sovereignty have to do with trying to put him in a mathematical formula box?
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To the Calvinists here: what part of Non cal theology Bothers you the Most?
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saturneptune
New Member
Welcome to BB
I did not play any role in my first birth, but my two parents did.
Likewise, it takes two to be born again. My spirit must be joined to the Holy Spirit to be born again.
1 Cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Here Paul is telling believers to flee fornication. Then Paul explains the mystery that two joined together become one. This is why God said a man shall be joined to his wife and they shall become one flesh.
And that is easily seen. I am a product of my two parents coming together, and so are you. Yet I am not my parents, I am an individual.
It is the same in the spiritual. When we trust Jesus Christ, our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit and they become one spirit. That one spirit is the new birth, it is a new person, a new creation, a new individual. You are not the old man anymore, you are a new man, created in Christ Jesus.
So, just as the physical birth, it takes two to make the new spiritual birth. We are now married to Jesus, we are ONE with him, a new creation.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
We died to the law when we trusted Jesus, and now we are married to Jesus. We have become ONE.
It takes TWO to tango, and it takes TWO to give birth.
convicted1
Guest
No one on here denies God first drawing someone as an absolute necessary in the salvation process. No one desires to be saved w/o Him first drawing them. But we aren't "zapped" with salvation. When He calls, we must be the one who answers the phone. When He knocks, we must open the door......I haven't read where He uses a battering ram as a "door knocker". When He draws, we must then seek Him.
Did God plan your birth?
I'll rephrase incase you get too technical: Did God plan your conception? Did He determine Winman's existence?
convicted1
Guest
That's a "myth" on here, because I haven't read anyone supporting this claim on here.....and I've been here since 2007......
Yes, the scripture says Jesus stands at the door and knocks, but we must open to him.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
This is a very simple picture that anyone could understand. If someone knocks on your door, it is obvious they want to come in and be with you. You have a choice, you can open the door and invite them in, or you can refuse to open the door. It is that simple.
Jesus does not crash our door down, he patiently waits for us to open to him of our own free will. Calvinists may not like this, but this is what Jesus showed.
All a person has to do to be saved is say, Come in Lord, Come in! He is already willing to come in, are you willing to invite him in?
DrJamesAch
New Member
Haha, Rev 3:20 you beat me to it.
Gee, Calvinism is wrong to assert as we are running from God because we hate God, and are so dead we cannot lift a finger, that God zaps us with His "irresistible grace" ray gun? Calvinism is irrational.
What do Calvinists find offensive about non Calvinist doctrine?
Calvinists believe in Total Spiritual Inability, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates unregenerates seek God and heaven, they hate it. Matthew 23:13.
Calvinists believe in Unconditional Election, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth, they hate it. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
Calvinists believe in Limited Atonement, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, they hate it. 1 Timothy 2:6
Calvinists believe in Irresistible Grace, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates unregenerate men can understand the milk of the gospel, they hate it. 1 Corinthians 3:1
But most of all they hate discussing the faults of Calvinism, and so constantly seek to discuss the faults of Arminianism.
What do Calvinists find offensive about non Calvinist doctrine?
Calvinists believe in Total Spiritual Inability, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates unregenerates seek God and heaven, they hate it. Matthew 23:13.
Calvinists believe in Unconditional Election, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth, they hate it. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
Calvinists believe in Limited Atonement, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, they hate it. 1 Timothy 2:6
Calvinists believe in Irresistible Grace, thus when non-Calvinists quote scripture that demonstrates unregenerate men can understand the milk of the gospel, they hate it. 1 Corinthians 3:1
But most of all they hate discussing the faults of Calvinism, and so constantly seek to discuss the faults of Arminianism.
i will respond in detail after I listen to the link....but this is not necessarily so.
Some who disagree might not have heard the truth correctly.there is much to study so a novice might need much time to ;
1]find out what is at issue
2]take time to expand the issues
3] be mistaken on some aspects of an issue
4]need time to hold a view,until he learns more about it,etc
This is a letter to "a church"......not an invitation to walk the aisle.those who are to open the door are to repent of disobedience,that is what is in view.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Sorry to remind you of the context......
DrJamesAch
New Member
You can remind me of the context just don't forget the words in them "IF ANY MAN hear my voice"
If you'll notice all 7 letters normally stopped and then offered a general statement. Rev 2:7 "if any man hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit sayeth unto the churcheS" Even though the letter addressed one church at a time, when the message to that church was done, it ends with a general references to ALL the churches. Rev 2:11, 17, 29, 3:6, 3:13, 3:20-22.
Now the one area will I will agree is that Revelation 2-3 is not directed at the current church, but it still has a universal principle. Revelation 2-3 is directed toward the tribulation saints (something I will go into on a different thread sometime).
Nevertheless, it does not say, if any man in Laodicea open the door, it says if ANY MAN open the door.
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Huh? Read the post I responded to and maybe what I wrote will make sense.
But limited atonement means not any man, but certain preselected men. So when you read "any man" you must see through Iconoclast's eyes that it actually says if certain preselected men, but that is not right either. We must back up and rewrite it to read, when certain preselected men... Now we have the Calvinist Authorized Version, based on the CRT, meaning Calvinist Rewritten Text.
As I said before, Calvinism actually attempts to discourage folks from doing what scripture says. It is easily understood that Rev 3:20 is a general invitation to all men to invite Jesus into their heart, but Calvinists will attempt to discourage this.
One gets the impression they really do not want folks to get saved.
Instead of adorning the gospel, Calvinist doctrine distorts the gospel, making it unattractive. We are not saved by grace through faith, we are saved by grace through unconditional election then given faith irresistibly. God causes us to be unable to receive the gospel with joy, because we really hate God all the time. On and on it goes, one fiction after another.
So Calvinists seek to change the subject to the faults of Arminianism. ::
So Calvinists seek to change the subject to the faults of Arminianism. ::
Van
Hello Van,
All biblical Christians limit the atonement.
1] God has not provided salvation for fallen angels
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham
2] he did not die for all men....he died for the seed of Abraham which are those In Him.....
Notice the same text does not say he took on him the seed of Adam....but only the seed of Abraham
Now if you want to "see it through Iconoclasts eyes", keep in mind that Iconoclast believes the biblical testimony that Jesus made a complete and perfect atonement that is actual...not potential.
This actual atonement...actually saves All given by The Father.It saves All who were sanctifed
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Yes....the biblical testimony...THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED
oh...but yes it most certainly is!
No need to re-write anything if we read it through Iconoclasts eyes Van:thumbs: Because Iconoclast reads this:
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Iconoclast's eyes see these verses saying who did the electing...God
when He did it.....before the world was.....
Then Iconoclast believes it by God's grace:thumbs:
You might have that version in your mind which tells us that God is a debtor to man,and has "to credit his faith".....which as you like to say is twaddle to the max:thumbsup:
Hello Van,
All biblical Christians limit the atonement.
1] God has not provided salvation for fallen angels
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham
2] he did not die for all men....he died for the seed of Abraham which are those In Him.....
Notice the same text does not say he took on him the seed of Adam....but only the seed of Abraham
Now if you want to "see it through Iconoclasts eyes", keep in mind that Iconoclast believes the biblical testimony that Jesus made a complete and perfect atonement that is actual...not potential.
This actual atonement...actually saves All given by The Father.It saves All who were sanctifed
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Yes....the biblical testimony...THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED
.
oh...but yes it most certainly is!
No need to re-write anything if we read it through Iconoclasts eyes Van:thumbs: Because Iconoclast reads this:
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Iconoclast's eyes see these verses saying who did the electing...God
when He did it.....before the world was.....
Then Iconoclast believes it by God's grace:thumbs:
You might have that version in your mind which tells us that God is a debtor to man,and has "to credit his faith".....which as you like to say is twaddle to the max:thumbsup:
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Iconoclast said:
This verse does not say Jesus did not die for those who are not saved, it simply says by Jesus's one offering he has PERFECTED THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED, that is, those who are saved.
It does not say one word about Jesus only dying for some persons.
So, you are reading Limited Atonement into this verse when it is not there.
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