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To the Calvinists here: what part of Non cal theology Bothers you the Most?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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Sometimes it depends on how we view that term, as some would hold that needing to receives jesus thru faith is a "work" adding to Grace, others that since thaty faith was a gift from God to us, part of His grace!
When you use that term, do you mean that its holding that we have the faith residing in us, that God provodes means to save us, but allows us to decide to reject/accept based upon 'free will?"
You can be saved at the time of your choosing.
Do you see adifference between those who hold to us still have free will to decide like Adam, from thsoe who see that we have free will tomdecide only due tocommon Grace extended to all from God?
I think the formulaic "conversion" has led to pragmatism in "evangelism" which has led to people believing they were okay because they prayed the prayer at a rally or church camp.
Now, this is not stated doctrine or anything like that, but it's rather how I've seen the theology played out. I know many arminians who do not fall into the errors above.
Now, this is not stated doctrine or anything like that, but it's rather how I've seen the theology played out. I know many arminians who do not fall into the errors above.
There appears to be NO Arminians posting here, as all who are not cals prefer to be seen as non cals...
Which is fine, but hard to really define what non cal theology really is!
DrJamesAch
New Member
I'm not Arminian, but that there is nothing wrong with praying to receive Christ because the Bible does say "whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".
There are several examples in the Bible of those who offered even short statements that indicated their trust in Christ:
"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Acts 8:37
"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42
"And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner" Luke 18:13
However, I do agree that "quick prayerism" is dangerous. I don't believe that you can use debate tactics to get a person to just agree with you because they either can't out debate you, or they simply have somewhere else to be and don't want to be rude, and you give them the impression that if they say 1-2-3-repeat after me-congratulations see you in eternity, and they don't truly believe in your presentation. Prayer is not a Saviour, Christ is.
This is why Jesus didn't simply say "making converts of all men" He said "making DISCIPLES of all men". Making a disciple requires follow up after a conversion, and the follow up will indicate whether that person really believed what he said he did.
I still encourage potential converts to pray and call on the Lord, but I don't use a scripted prayer to do so. I ask them to commune with him in their own words because that allows you to see what their understanding of the gospel is.
So even though I believe there is a danger in those who say a quick prayer, it's not wise to just simply write off their conversation either.
Oh, I agree with you. It's not that there is something wrong with the prayer, but there is something wrong if the prayer is seen as some magical incantation that gets you out of hell.
You say not a cal or arm, so that would mean that ou think we are still free willed enough to respond to jesus aprt from the Lord effectually gracing us beforehand in able to respond?
is there any verse that says that we are to ask jesus to come into our hearts?
No...and while I'm not wholesale against a generic sinners prayer, I find the language of asking jesus to come into our hearts totally unhelpful.
DrJamesAch
New Member
I'm not Arminian because I believe once saved always saved, and have a few disagreements on some of their other points.
But yes, I do believe free will in that once you make a decision to turn to Christ the Holy Spirit does the work of justification when you call on Christ to save you. The free will does not detract from God's sovereignty because it is still part of His design for salvation. You are never getting saved "of yourselves".
Where Calvinism puts the cart before the horse is that since faith is what leads to salvation, then what comes first, the faith or the salvation? In Calvinism, God must "quicken" you and save you first, but then that means salvation precedes faith.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm not sure many who hold to the doctrines of grace would agree with your assertion that when God "quickens", it is the quickening that saves the person, only that it will certainly lead to salvation each and every time Holy Spirit so works.
The quickening, or regeneration as I understand it, is a work of Holy Spirit that allows a person to respond to the gospel with faith in Jesus Christ and thus appropriate salvation.
So I, for one, do not believe salvation precedes faith.
Tom Butler
New Member
That's sorta the way I see it, too.
By definition, quickening is a sovereign act of God to make a dead person spiritually alive. Until the Spirit regenerates, dead people can't exercise saving repentance and faith.
Regeneration enables dead sinners to freely repent of sin and trust Christ for salvation.
Regeneration and salvation are not the same thing.
Baptist Puritan
New Member
No personal walk
One issue I see currently that is not necessarily theological, is that experiential Christianity is no longer required for those professing to be Christians. Of course this can be seen in Arminian and Calvinist circles.
One issue I see currently that is not necessarily theological, is that experiential Christianity is no longer required for those professing to be Christians. Of course this can be seen in Arminian and Calvinist circles.
That - and "Pray this prayer after me".
DrJamesAch
New Member
But in Calvinism, where does God ever quicken anyone who is not elect? You created 3 classes of people now. Instead of those who are dead, and those who are alive, you have: 1) Dead 2) Alive 3) Alive but in limbo. If Grace is irresistible, then those who are quickened would be saved because God does not quicken those who are not elect, and if they are elect, than grace is irresistible, according to Calvinism.
So to say that being quickened is not a guarantee of salvation is a conflict within Calvinist theology.
Furthermore, if you are relying on verses such as Hebrews ch 6 and 10 for your definition of quickening (where "enlightened" is used) it says those who "fall away" can never be renewed to repentance. But if they can never be renewed, then that means they are dead in sin. Thus that interpretation would have a sinner, dead in sin, being made alive, and then dead again.
Now I agree there are those who were enlightened and did not come to Christ because they chose not to. Acts 7:51. And "falling away" does not mean losing salvation-it means a person who believes that law and self righteousness can save them. Gal 5:4. But in Calvinist theology that is impossible since Calvinist soteriology begins with quickening followed by grace that can not be resisted. If grace can not be resisted, then that means salvation precedes faith because the person is saved before demonstrating faith in Christ, and that is Biblically backwards.
"Quickened" does not equal made alive or saved. Light can be rejected.
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