To the Catholics visiting the Baptist forum.

[MarysSon]

Please forgive my apparent rudeness, but I get passionate about doctrine.

I intended no insult.

If you don't like the way I'm emphasizing my points, simply say so.
I bold text the things I want the reader to focus on.

As for misunderstanding the Catholic position,
I'm very familiar with "Wesleyan Arminianism", and I don't see Roman Catholic "Molinism" deviating all that much from it.
Both teach that man cooperates with God in gaining eternal life.

I don't believe I am misunderstanding any of it.

In "Wesleyanism" / "Traditionalism" what you have described is called "Prevenient Grace".

I do not see it taught anywhere in Scripture.
Perhaps you could point out to me where you see it taught.

I disagree.
Faith is a gift from God ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by Jesus Christ Himself ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of the believer's gift of grace, not the means by which they gain eternal life.

May God bless you.

First of all - you were perfectly charitable and pleasant. I didn't find any rudeness ion your post at all.
As for the rest - It's purely Biblical teaching.

When Christ was in Jerusalem and was rebuking the pharisees - he exclaimed:
Matt. 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

This shows that their lack of cooperation with God's grace was the problem - NOT that God didn't will their coming to Him.

In Acts 7:51, we read:
"You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you."
Again - the problem with with the lack of cooperation - not God's will,

In 1 Cor. 3:9, Paul calls us "co-workers" (sunergos) with God (see 2 Cor. 6:1).

Romans 8:28 shows God working WITH us . . .
"We know that in everything God works for good with (sunergei eis agathon) those who love him, who are called according to his purpose."

Finally - a gist cannot be forced on somebody. their response is necessary for that gift to be given.
The idea that God "gives" us a "free" gift that we have NO choice of refusing is simply anti-Biblical . . .

 

[mailmandan]

We trust in Christ alone to save us.

No, you trust in Christ + works to save you which does not equate to trusting in Christ alone for salvation.

The difference between us and YOU is that WE trust in everything Christ and the Apostles taught and not just those things that WE choose to believe in.

Christ and the Apostles did not teach salvation by faith + works or numerous other doctrines that Catholicism teaches.

The Sacraments aren’t an “addition” to trusting in Christ – it’s what HE prescribes.

Trusting in the Sacraments for salvation makes them an "addition" to trusting in Christ for salvation and you have turned them into a legalistic prescription for salvation. Christ did not prescribe "works salvation."

 

[mailmandan]

No – justification is NOT a permanent state unless we endure in cooperation with God’s grace. We have a free will and can walk away from God – ANY time we want.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty. Justification certainly is a permanent state. Those who fail to endure and walk away from God demonstrate that they were never truly justified in the first place. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

The Scriptures are FULL of warnings for fully converted, born again Christians NOT to fall back into darkness and lose their security (Matt. 7:19-23, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2, Pet. 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

"On the surface" that may be what those passages of scripture "appear" to teach (especially in the eyes of those who teach works salvation) but that's not what they actually teach. I would be happy to go over those passages of scripture with you one at a time if you like. I will start with Matthew 7:19-23.

In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, oh my goodness! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

*John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Sound familiar? Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved, so they were not fully converted, born again Christians. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts. *Without faith its impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works.

This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ. Hence, "workers of iniquity" which is how God see's ALL of us (Romans 3:23) apart from Christ. (Romans 6:23)

 

[mailmandan]

And the Bible teaches us that salvation is a LIFELONG PROCESS – not a one-time, slam dunk event.

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by works-salvationists. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Justification is a one time event. Ongoing sanctification is a life long process.

The hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7) is not an uncertain "cross your fingers" kind of hope, like I hope it doesn't rain next week. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") –properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the assurance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1).

Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life (which we won't) or whether we are babes in Christ or mature in Christ, we are still JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. (Romans 5:1)

 

[Adonia]

Trusting in the Sacraments for salvation makes them an "addition" to trusting in Christ for salvation and you have turned them into a legalistic prescription for salvation. Christ did not prescribe "works salvation."

The sacraments give us a structure to live by. Did Jesus want us to be married to one spouse for a lifetime? Yes. Did Jesus want an ordination rite for the clergy? Yes. Did Jesus want a healing rite? Evidently yes on that one too. And it's the same for all the others and each one of them are mentioned right in the very scriptures that we both read. So they are not an addition to anything, they are an integral part of the plan by God to help us live holy lives.

 

[mailmandan]

The sacraments give us a structure to live by. Did Jesus want us to be married to one spouse for a lifetime? Yes. Did Jesus want an ordination rite for the clergy? Yes. Did Jesus want a healing rite? Evidently yes on that one too. And it's the same for all the others and each one of them are mentioned right in the very scriptures that we both read. So they are not an addition to anything, they are an integral part of the plan by God to help us live holy lives.

It's one thing to have a structure to live by and live holy lives, yet it's another thing to turn a structure to live by into a legalistic prescription for salvation. Trusting in the sacraments for salvation is "in addition" to trusting in Jesus for salvation.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:22-28; 4:5-6) Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

 

[MartyF]

If you are not a Protestant and do not believe in reform theology, what do you believe in, you and your powers to read and comprehend?

JoeT

So I should trust in powers to read and comprehend of the murdering God-King Calvin? Or the ministers getting ready to slaughter Catholics at the Council of Dort? Or the British Baptists who added stuff to make themselves more British? Or the Protestants who would happily give me a "third baptism" if the laws of the U.S. allowed it? Or Martin Luther - the unrepentant anti-semite?

If I put any trust in any human, it's the 80 are so translators of NLT I read. The fact that the Catholics agreed to approve the translation which was done by evangelicals adds to my trust in the translation. But even then, I sometimes go to the original language to make sure.

And there are numerous at least adequate translations out there.

The Gospel is not hard to understand. Massive powers of reading and comprehension are not needed to know what is going on. People just tend to be stubborn and reject the simplest answer for a more convoluted one.

Colossians 2:8 NLT
Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.

 

[MarysSon]

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by works-salvationists. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Justification is a one time event. Ongoing sanctification is a life long process.

The hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7) is not an uncertain "cross your fingers" kind of hope, like I hope it doesn't rain next week. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") –properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the assurance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1).

Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life (which we won't) or whether we are babes in Christ or mature in Christ, we are still JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. (Romans 5:1)

I’ve already addressed most of your points – but I will recap for the sake of being fair.

First of all – the sacraments aren’t an “addition” to what Christ already did. They are PART of what He did. If you look at your life as a car – the sacraments are the gasoline that keeps the car running. They are NOT a “replacement” for the car and they’re not something that YOU get any credit for having created. You’re simply the person who benefits from them.

The Church doesn’t teach that Christ died – and now we have sacraments to “add” to that. Christ died for us and left us the Sacraments as a means to strengthen and enrich our lives.

As for your use of the term “works salvationist” – this is complete nonsense. You guys act as if we add our works to what Christ already did – all the while ignoring what Scripture says about those works:

Eph. 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

GOD created those works. They are not anything WE devised. HOWEVER – they are an essential component of true faith – NOT just an evidence of it.

As for what I see as your false idea of the “guarantees” that hope presents – this is what Scripture says about our hope as Christians:

Rom. 8:22-25
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

This obliterates the false, man-made 16th century invention of Eternal Security.

Finally – the verses I presented that warn Christians not to fall back into darkness and LOSE their security use the term “Epignosis”. Epignosis is NOT simply a “knowledge” (gnosis, oida) of Christ – but a full, and experiential knowledge, like that of a spouse. To say that these verses are NOT about truly born again people is to deny this fact.

 

[Particular]

I’ve already addressed most of your points – but I will recap for the sake of being fair.

First of all – the sacraments aren’t an “addition” to what Christ already did. They are PART of what He did. If you look at your life as a car – the sacraments are the gasoline that keeps the car running. They are NOT a “replacement” for the car and they’re not something that YOU get any credit for having created. You’re simply the person who benefits from them.

The Church doesn’t teach that Christ died – and now we have sacraments to “add” to that. Christ died for us and left us the Sacraments as a means to strengthen and enrich our lives.

As for your use of the term “works salvationist” – this is complete nonsense. You guys act as if we add our works to what Christ already did – all the while ignoring what Scripture says about those works:

Eph. 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

GOD created those works. They are not anything WE devised. HOWEVER – they are an essential component of true faith – NOT just an evidence of it.

As for what I see as your false idea of the “guarantees” that hope presents – this is what Scripture says about our hope as Christians:

Rom. 8:22-25
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

This obliterates the false, man-made 16th century invention of Eternal Security.

Finally – the verses I presented that warn Christians not to fall back into darkness and LOSE their security use the term “Epignosis”. Epignosis is NOT simply a “knowledge” (gnosis, oida) of Christ – but a full, and experiential knowledge, like that of a spouse. To say that these verses are NOT about truly born again people is to deny this fact.

Hmmm...
The term "sacrament" is never used in the Bible. Neither communion nor baptism are ever stated to impart divine grace in the Bible. Both are effects of God given grace upon the children of God's choosing.
Second, you must ignore the gospel of John, specifically chapters 6, 10 and 17 if you imagine that God does not keep and protect his sheep, but leaves them to be lost by their own wandering ways.

 

[MarysSon]

Hmmm...
The term "sacrament" is never used in the Bible. Neither communion nor baptism are ever stated to impart divine grace in the Bible. Both are effects of God given grace upon the children of God's choosing.
Second, you must ignore the gospel of John, specifically chapters 6, 10 and 17 if you imagine that God does not keep and protect his sheep, but leaves them to be lost by their own wandering ways.

Hmmmmmm, the term “Trinity” is never used in the Bible – yet it is THE central doctrine of Christianity.

The term, “Incarnation” isn’t in the Bible either – yet is another foundational doctrine of Christianity.

These were terms that were coined by the Church – because Christ gave SUPREME AUTHORITY to His Church – that WHATEVER it declared on earth would also be declared in Heaven (Matt. 18:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

The tem “Sacrament” is no different.

As for your erroneous statement that Baptism does NOT impart grace – Jesus Himself stated that Baptism along with repentance is what SAVES us (Mark. 16:16).

Peter states that Baptism and repentance brings about the FORGIVENESS of sins (Acts 2:38).

In Col. 2:11-15, Paul explains that those who were Baptized in Christ were buried with Him, forgiven of their sins and had their slate wiped CLEAN.

For YOU to sit there and claim that Baptism doesn’t impart grace is simply an exercise in denial . . .

 

[Reformed1689]

Sadly you are mistaken. The Catholic Church teaches salvation through Jesus Christ the Savior. First one must have faith that this is true and then it's walking hand in hand with Him and following the greatest command of His which is loving one another.

So a works-based salvation...

 

[Reformed1689]

Or Martin Luther - the unrepentant anti-semite?

False charge by comments that are taken out of context.

 

[Hollow Man]

Oh boy!



All I can say is this, the Catholic Church preaches Christ crucified, that through His death and resurrection (which is the focus of our worship service by the way) we have salvation.

Then, according to the Council of Trent, you're anathema. And, according to anyone who knows Catholicism, you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Hollow Man]

Sadly you are mistaken. The Catholic Church teaches salvation through Jesus Christ the Savior. First one must have faith that this is true and then...

Right. And it's all the "and thens" that makes Catholicism an heretical and damnable cult.

 

[Hollow Man]

[QUOTE="MarysSon]Nobody said that we approach God on our own. [/quote]

Right. You go through Dead Mary.

 

[Hollow Man]

I think/hope we all agree that you cannot be saved by the catholic or baptist church or any other denomination and there are many people who consider themselves one of these that are not saved and many in both that are. I think this video sums up the main issues protestant denominations have with Catholicism

Any Catholic who is saved is saved in spite of Catholicism, not because of it.

 

[Particular]

Hmmmmmm, the term “Trinity” is never used in the Bible – yet it is THE central doctrine of Christianity.

The term, “Incarnation” isn’t in the Bible either – yet is another foundational doctrine of Christianity.

These were terms that were coined by the Church – because Christ gave SUPREME AUTHORITY to His Church – that WHATEVER it declared on earth would also be declared in Heaven (Matt. 18:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

The tem “Sacrament” is no different.

As for your erroneous statement that Baptism does NOT impart grace – Jesus Himself stated that Baptism along with repentance is what SAVES us (Mark. 16:16).

Peter states that Baptism and repentance brings about the FORGIVENESS of sins (Acts 2:38).

In Col. 2:11-15, Paul explains that those who were Baptized in Christ were buried with Him, forgiven of their sins and had their slate wiped CLEAN.

For YOU to sit there and claim that Baptism doesn’t impart grace is simply an exercise in denial . . .

The term sacrament is different. Its meaning is:
"A religious ceremony or ritual regarded as imparting divine grace."
Since no ritual causes God to impart divine grace to someone, the term sacrament is a false teaching imparted, not by God, but by the State Controlled Church of Rome.
Sacraments are therefore central to the legalistic, works based system created by the State Controlled Church of Rome. The legalism taught by Rome is anathema to the gospel, which teaches that God chooses to impart grace upon wretched sinners solely by his supreme right as Sovereign ruler, apart from any meritorious work produced by a human being.
In short, your church imparted a heresy upon its congregants whereby they teach works salvation.
Your church is in grave error and refuses to repent. God has left it to its own folly.

 

[Hollow Man]

Hmmmmmm, the term “Trinity” is never used in the Bible – yet it is THE central doctrine of Christianity.

The term, “Incarnation” isn’t in the Bible either – yet is another foundational doctrine of Christianity.

First of all, it's disingenuous of you to load the argument by choosing a word you know is not found in scripture and then claiming that because that word is not found is scripture, that the teaching is not found in scripture.

Second, that God is a Triune God is taught in scripture, regardless of what you call it. The Incarnation is taught in scripture, regardless of what you call it.

Works-salvation, infused righteousness, praying to the dead, Purgatory, and whole host of Catholic cult beliefs are not.

These were terms that were coined by the Church – because Christ gave SUPREME AUTHORITY to His Church

Please quote the verse that says Jesus ceded His authority to the Catholic Church, which did not even exist during the New Testament.

As for your erroneous statement that Baptism does NOT impart grace – Jesus Himself stated that Baptism along with repentance is what SAVES us (Mark. 16:16).

Here you go,:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16. Please note that nowhere in this verse does Christ say baptism saves or imparts grace.

Peter states that Baptism and repentance brings about the FORGIVENESS of sins (Acts 2:38).

Again, nothing in Acts 2:38 says this:

"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38

In Col. 2:11-15, Paul explains that those who were Baptized in Christ were buried with Him, forgiven of their sins and had their slate wiped CLEAN.

Yes, and nowhere in the passage does it say that it was baptism that cleansed them.

Here you go. See for yourself:

"n him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.c"

For YOU to sit there and claim that Baptism doesn’t impart grace is simply an exercise in denial . . .

And for you to say that it does while alluding to Bible verses that never say that, if just dishonestly on your part.

But then, what else are we to expect from Catholics at this point?

 

[David Kent]

Or Martin Luther - the unrepentant anti-semite?

Not sure about that, but let's just consider the top Catholic Anti semites and mass murderers of the last century.
Mussolini.
Franco
Hitler as well as all his top men
Stalin (Yes he was a political atheist but had studied at a Jesuit seninary in Georgia, and at one time tried to get a fellow seminar elected as pope,)
Stepinac
Many others if you wish for a list

 

[MartyF]

False charge by comments that are taken out of context.

I’m not sure how the 65,000 word book On the Jews and their lies can be taken out of context but I’d be glad to hear how far you can twist history.

How his advice that their houses be razed and destroyed can be seen in “a good context.”

How taking all their cash and gold can be seen in “a good context.”

etc. etc. etc.

Like I said 65,000 words to go through. You’ve got a lot of explaining to do.