To the Catholics visiting the Baptist forum.

[Adonia]

There are saved Catholics, by the Grace of God, but Rome itself teaches another and false Gospel!

You continue to lie after you have been told many times what we believe. You are guilty of "false witness" against us, which is a serious sin indeed. Repent and ask God Almighty for forgiveness before it's too late. He offers you both forgiveness and mercy for your trespass. Repent! The Lord awaits!

 

[Adonia]

Sadly, the Roman Catholic church does teach salvation by works and has "another" gospe

Sadly you are mistaken. The Catholic Church teaches salvation through Jesus Christ the Savior. First one must have faith that this is true and then it's walking hand in hand with Him and following the greatest command of His which is loving one another.

 

[mailmandan]

Sadly you are mistaken.

You said it yourself.

Do you believe that man is saved by grace through faith in Christ and not by works or do you believe that man is saved by grace through faith in Christ + works?

It is the latter.

 

[Adonia]

Yet faith is not defined "as" obedience/works. You are not making a distinction between faith and works but are simply wrapping up BOTH faith AND works in a package and simply stamping "faith" on the package. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

You are playing semantics on what MarysSon is saying and I do not understand why you are doing this. We both believe the same thing about faith and works. I ask you, are you saved if you say you just have faith but treat the homeless person as dirt, that you don't recognize Christ in this individual? Faith, love, and works - all are required for salvation.

 

[Adonia]

You said it yourself.

Faith is the starting point. Are you just looking for an argument or what?

 

[mailmandan]

You are playing semantics on what MarysSon is saying and I do not understand why you are doing this. We both believe the same thing about faith and works. I ask you, are you saved if you say you just have faith but treat the homeless person as dirt, that you don't recognize Christ in this individual? Faith, love, and works - all are required for salvation.

Faith expresses itself in love, yet you could never perform enough acts of love/charity to earn salvation. So in addition to faith, how much love and works does it take? This is where we cross over into works salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith is the starting point. Are you just looking for an argument or what?

Not looking for an argument at all and from beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church, so I understand both sides of the argument.

 

[David Kent]

We just happen to look to the Catholic Church for the correct Christian teachings, as you look to your Baptist faith tradition for the same and it really is not any more complicated than that.

WRONG
Baptists don't look to tradition, we look tro the bible for our teaching.
Catholics worship a bit of bread, or wafer.

 

[simon]

I think/hope we all agree that you cannot be saved by the catholic or baptist church or any other denomination and there are many people who consider themselves one of these that are not saved and many in both that are. I think this video sums up the main issues protestant denominations have with Catholicism

 

[robycop3]

Oh boy!



All I can say is this, the Catholic Church preaches Christ crucified, that through His death and resurrection (which is the focus of our worship service by the way) we have salvation. He is the Savior and it all starts with Him.



It is clear that you reject the power that was given to the Church by Jesus Christ Himself, that there is the "bind and loose" doctrine that has been in effect since the early days. The Catholic Church thus has as a part of it's power to proclaim those things you mentioned. Now, I personally do not seek an "indulgence" for anything that I might do as part of my spiritual life - it is a moot concept to me. As for the "assumption" of the woman the Holy Scriptures say is "blessed", it is a doctrine of the Catholic Church, and once again it is not something that I am that concerned with, one way or the other.



I am like St. Thomas, when I leave this earth and enter into God's heavenly abode then I will know for sure that I have made it. Until then, I will keep praying for God's mercy.



Thank you for your testimony. I also believe those very words, but I will refer you back to my previous answer. "I am like St. Thomas...…". There is absolutely nothing wrong with me feeling as I do about it, that is just me and how I see things.

The prob with the RCC isn't its basic preaching Jesus crucified & resurrected-it's with all the MAN-MADE bunk people have ADDED to the Gospel & its principles.

Such bunk includes mariolatry, offices of pope & cardinals, belief in purgatory, prayers to the dead, man-made "saints", & one of the worst is celibacy of the clergy. None of this trash is in SCRIPTURE. Man-made "traditions" were condemned by Jesus when He upbraided some Pharisees for enforcing some of them.

 

[MarysSon]

We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) After having been saved by grace through faith, our faith then "afterwards" works through love and NOT to become saved, but BECAUSE we are already saved. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Yet faith is not defined "as" obedience/works. You are not making a distinction between faith and works but are simply wrapping up BOTH faith AND works in a package and simply stamping "faith" on the package. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unproductive, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

This seems to be the very heart of your error that results in salvation by faith + works. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of obtaining salvation. Authentic faith results in actions appropriate to faith (all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in faith. So faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Where people ERROR is they try to make BOTH faith AND works the ROOT of salvation, which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

The word "believe" (pisteuo) can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Jesus Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Faith in Christ that saves is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Faith in Christ that saves trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..)

God's grace shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. God's grace cannot be earned by our actions. (Ephesians 2:8,9; Galatians 2:21; 2 Timothy 1:9) Grace is based on the character of God and not on our performance or ability to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:6) God's grace not only brings us to salvation, but continues to operate sovereignly in the lives of believers. (1 Corinthians 15:10; 2 Corinthians 1:12; 2 Corinthians 12:9; Titus 2:11)

You are confused.

I never said that we “earn” God’s grace. That would be impossible.

HOWEVER - we cooperate with God’s grace or it CANNOT work in us. Every gift requires a recipient. If a gift is refused – it cannot be given.

John 6:40 indeed says that the Father’s will is for us to “believe” in His Son and have eternal life. What does “believing” in Christ in a Biblical sense entail?

- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

1 Tim. 2:3-4 also says that it is the will of God that ALL men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

The word used here for “Knowledge” is not the usual Greek words “Gnosis” or “Oida”. The word used here is Epignosis, which means a full, experiential and precise knowledge”. God wills that ALL MEN be saved and come to an Epignosis of the truth – yet we know this will NOT happen. God’s will is NOT always carried out. It is only carried out by those who believe in Him – in the BIBLICAL sense enumerated above.

James 2:19 tells us that even the DEMONS believe but they don’t have FAITH. James goes on to show that belief is only ONE component of faith. Surrender and obedience is the other component.

We also have to look at the way the Church has historically defined faith from the very beginning - to the 16th century when the new doctrine of “Faith” was invented. Faith has ALWAYS been interpreted as belief + surrender and obedience because the Bible teaches that unless we cooperate with God’s grace - we do NOT have true faith (Matt. 7:21, Matt. 16:24, 23:37, Mark 16:16, Luke 8:13-14, 12:42-47, 13:34, John 15:1-10, John 17:12, John 14:15, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:23-29, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, James 1:22).

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I think it would be worthwhile to remember at times Catholics and Baptists use the same vocabulary but different dictionaries.

 

[MartyF]

A primary philosophy in Protestantism is as follows: "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself," [Attributed to Voltaire]. This definition came out of the Age of Enlightenment (also known as the Age of Reason). Protestant and reform theology is a mixture of naturalism and relativism synergistically merging to form a dubious logic of absolute opinion of fact.

To Protestants, reformers and evangelical (collectively Protestants) the concept of objective truth becomes completely foreign. It is an ethical practice of morality without a standard or a guide for our actions that is subordinated to an ultimate purpose; fundamental rules our actions are not subject to an omnipotent ruler (God). Rather, who can make the better argument out of a book. Reasoning in the light of God’s ultimate purpose is moral order, to govern in the light of His fundamental moral rules produces law and order-or social stability. The Protestant would have us believe that the Church is evil, full of hypocrites, and in opposition to its own people. In the same breath they demand the right to deride her doctrine and rites demanding that all be pressed into a worship of the god of their making. While faith is relative to each reformer, i.e. one religion is as good as another; they war against the Church with an objectivity not found in their faith.

I think Galatians and the rest of Scripture poses a problem for Protestants. So, I’m not at all surprised at a comments such as yours; completely ignorant of Catholicism.

Let’s see

• Protestants accept fornication, divorce, and adultery as subjective morality, where Sacred Scripture would indicate otherwise, yet they claim to be the people of the Book.
• Protestants accept birth control, abortion, euthanasia and infanticide while the Sacred Scriptures would find these repugnant.

Instead of using holy script to cast scandal (we teach that it is a sin) why don’t you inspect your own conscience for hypocrisy.

I'm not a Protestant and I do not believe in reform theology. I get the feeling that you really hate Protestants though. Good luck with that.

In case you didn’t know it, St. Paul didn’t write the Gospel.

Not sure who St. Paul is, but if you're referring to Paul, you are right that he didn't start writing Galatians until the end of the letter. And Tertius wrote the letter to the Romans I quoted.

That was left to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Oh, you might be confused here. This short video might help.

The assumption of Mary isn’t in Scripture; rather it is a doctrine of faith.

Oh good, then you agree that the assumption is not in the Bible.

Let me suggest when denying the Blessed Virgin Mary is mother of God, you reject Jesus is a real man. If you deny Christ was born of the Immaculate Mary you disavow Christ the Incarnate God. Rejecting Mary was Ever Virgin you reject the purity of the Sacrifice Jesus made one time for all. There is no salvation in either of these prospects – whether or not it is a ‘once saved, always saved’ proposition.

This is what I believe.

Matthew 1:18-19 NLT
This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit. [19] Joseph, to whom she was engaged, was a righteous man and did not want to disgrace her publicly, so he decided to break the engagement quietly.

Luke 1:26-35 NLT
In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a village in Galilee, [27] to a virgin named Mary. She was engaged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of King David. [28] Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you! ” [29] C onfused and disturbed, Mary tried to think what the angel could mean. [30] “Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! [31] You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. [32] He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. [33] And he will reign over Israel forever; his Kingdom will never end!” [34] Mary asked the angel, “But how can this happen? I am a virgin.” [35] The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God.

I believe there is no need to believe anything else.

Catholics believe in the promises of Christ, but there is not a single verse that says ‘click your heels like Dorothy and you will go to heaven’. Being saved requires a synergistic work in the grace of charity that forms faith in our hope for salvation. So, no, every Catholic should answer the questions will you go to heaven tomorrow with a firm, NO. Catholics are not in the habit of telling God who He will and will not save.

That is an interesting way of looking at it. How does this way of looking at salvation work with the belief in indulgences?

P.S. C o n f u s e d has a space to prevent it from turning into an emoji. For some reason the editor on this forum insists on replacing it with an emoji.

 

[mailmandan]

You are confused.

I never said that we “earn” God’s grace. That would be impossible.

HOWEVER - we cooperate with God’s grace or it CANNOT work in us. Every gift requires a recipient. If a gift is refused – it cannot be given.

John 6:40 indeed says that the Father’s will is for us to “believe” in His Son and have eternal life. What does “believing” in Christ in a Biblical sense entail?

- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

1 Tim. 2:3-4 also says that it is the will of God that ALL men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

The word used here for “Knowledge” is not the usual Greek words “Gnosis” or “Oida”. The word used here is Epignosis, which means a full, experiential and precise knowledge”. God wills that ALL MEN be saved and come to an Epignosis of the truth – yet we know this will NOT happen. God’s will is NOT always carried out. It is only carried out by those who believe in Him – in the BIBLICAL sense enumerated above.

James 2:19 tells us that even the DEMONS believe but they don’t have FAITH. James goes on to show that belief is only ONE component of faith. Surrender and obedience is the other component.

We also have to look at the way the Church has historically defined faith from the very beginning - to the 16th century when the new doctrine of “Faith” was invented. Faith has ALWAYS been interpreted as belief + surrender and obedience because the Bible teaches that unless we cooperate with God’s grace - we do NOT have true faith (Matt. 7:21, Matt. 16:24, 23:37, Mark 16:16, Luke 8:13-14, 12:42-47, 13:34, John 15:1-10, John 17:12, John 14:15, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:23-29, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, James 1:22).

Actually, it’s you who remains confused as you continue to try and “show horn” works “into” salvation through believing/faith. You “redefine” believing to “include” water baptism, obeying his commandments, works of mercy and charity etc..

Believing in Christ unto salvation is to place our faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. “Multiple acts of obedience” which “follow” having been saved through believing/faith is “works.” You “infuse” works “into” believing/faith and basically make no distinction between believing/faith and works, which makes works meritorious (at least in part) in earning the grace of God and obtaining salvation.

Either we are saved by trusting or else we are saved by trying. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. *You can’t have it both ways. Be sure to thoroughly read through posts #18 and #20. Also be sure to click on the link in post #19.

 

[mailmandan]

I think it would be worthwhile to remember at times Catholics and Baptists use the same vocabulary but different dictionaries.

I will never forgot the conversation that I had with my mother (who is a devout Roman Catholic) several years ago soon after I received Christ through faith. I quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to her and expressed that we are saved by grace through faith, not works. She replied by saying, “I know that,” yet after probing further, I came to realize that she interpreted that as “saved by grace through faith “infused with good works” (and those good works became meritorious towards receiving salvation). She limited “not saved by works” as merely not certain works under the law. The end result was saved through faith + works — saved by “these” works and just not “those” works. So Catholics and Baptist’s may use the same vocabulary, yet not always pour the same meaning into specific terms.

 

[Dave G]

God's grace can only work in us with our cooperation (Matt. 23:37).

God works in one of His children, regardless of their "co-operation".

" For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Philippians 2:13 ).
He does that which He wills.

To say that He forces His love on some makes Him a rapist - not a loving God.

Since He rescues His children ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ) from their rebellious and sinfully hard hearted condition ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ), He does not "rape" anyone.

What he is actually doing in one of His elect, is changing their heart in order for them to have a loving relationship with Him for eternity.
If He did not do this, no man would bother to seek Him from the heart.
We might do so in order to "get Him off our back", but never to actually have a personal and loving relationship with Him.

In other words, no one genuinely seeks Him because they love Him...
We as men "seek" Him because we're only interested in getting our "fat" out of the "fryer".

I think that's why most people I've ever run across who profess Christ want to know, "What must I do to be saved"?
They are under this impresseion that God has made an offer, and whoever "takes Him up on it" will get a free "get out of jail" card.
He didn't make an offer...He made a promise to save all those that believe on His Son.
It was never phrased as an offer, even though many seem to think that it was.

God's children love Him because He first loved them ( 1 John 4:19 ).
Religious people, whose hearts have never been changed, evidence their love for the world and its ways by going back to that which they truly love...which is anything but Jesus Christ and His ways.

So, to me the charge of "spiritual rape" depends on viewpoint:

One person objects because their free will has been violated.
All they seem to see are the "requirements", and they seem to think that God somehow "owes" them salvation, if they do what is required.
I sat under this type of teaching for over 25 years...as a Baptist.

The other person, who realizes that they could have never done enough to satisfy God's requirements for gaining eternal life, falls on Christ and His finished work on the cross for them, and admit that, apart from God and His merciful grace, they would have never even been interested in an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.
I've never had the privilege to sit under this type of teaching.


Then there's the breakdown of the differing beliefs about "how to get saved":

If man cooperates with God in gaining that which is plainly shown in Scripture to be a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), then that turns the entire thing into a cooperative work that results in God granting His favor....as a reward, not a gift.
If man passively receive the gift of eternal life from God, then that is grace...not of works ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).

Man either co-operates, making the whole thing a reward, or God operates, making the whole thing a gift.
There is no in-between.

Either man earns his way out of Hell, or he is graciously given a permanent stay of execution, and then a place at God's table... forever.

In either case, He is a loving God.


In the second case, He shows that He is willing to love those He chooses to love ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:13-18 ), instead of casting the whole lot of us into Hell, where we all rightfully belong.

 

[Yeshua1]

We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) After having been saved by grace through faith, our faith then "afterwards" works through love and NOT to become saved, but BECAUSE we are already saved. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Yet faith is not defined "as" obedience/works. You are not making a distinction between faith and works but are simply wrapping up BOTH faith AND works in a package and simply stamping "faith" on the package. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unproductive, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

This seems to be the very heart of your error that results in salvation by faith + works. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of obtaining salvation. Authentic faith results in actions appropriate to faith (all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in faith. So faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Where people ERROR is they try to make BOTH faith AND works the ROOT of salvation, which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

The word "believe" (pisteuo) can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Jesus Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Faith in Christ that saves is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Faith in Christ that saves trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..)

God's grace shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. God's grace cannot be earned by our actions. (Ephesians 2:8,9; Galatians 2:21; 2 Timothy 1:9) Grace is based on the character of God and not on our performance or ability to keep the law. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:6) God's grace not only brings us to salvation, but continues to operate sovereignly in the lives of believers. (1 Corinthians 15:10; 2 Corinthians 1:12; 2 Corinthians 12:9; Titus 2:11)

The person who claims to have been now saved shall have some fruit to show that is true, as salvation produces the fruit and works after saved, not part of getting saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

I will never forgot the conversation that I had with my mother (who is a devout Roman Catholic) several years ago soon after I received Christ through faith. I quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to her and expressed that we are saved by grace through faith, not works. She replied by saying, “I know that,” yet after probing further, I came to realize that she interpreted that as “saved by grace through faith “infused with good works” (and those good works became meritorious towards receiving salvation). She limited “not saved by works” as merely not certain works under the law. The end result was saved through faith + works — saved by “these” works and just not “those” works. So Catholics and Baptist’s may use the same vocabulary, yet not always pour the same meaning into specific terms.

Official Catholic theology do not trust in Christ alone to save them....

 

[Yeshua1]

You continue to lie after you have been told many times what we believe. You are guilty of "false witness" against us, which is a serious sin indeed. Repent and ask God Almighty for forgiveness before it's too late. He offers you both forgiveness and mercy for your trespass. Repent! The Lord awaits!

The Church of Rome continues to call the reformed view of salvation damnable heresy, so one of us holds to real gospel, and its we who hold to Pauline justification as per Bible, and not per Rome!

 

[MarysSon]

God works in one of His children, regardless of their "co-operation".

" For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Philippians 2:13 ).
He does that which He wills.

Since He rescues His children ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ) from their rebellious and sinfully hard hearted condition ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ), He does not "rape" anyone.

What he is actually doing in one of His elect, is changing their heart in order for them to have a loving relationship with Him for eternity.
If He did not do this, no man would bother to seek Him from the heart.
We might do so in order to "get Him off our back", but never to actually have a personal and loving relationship with Him.

In other words, no one genuinely seeks Him because they love Him...
We as men "seek" Him because we're only interested in getting our "fat" out of the "fryer".

I think that's why most people I've ever run across who profess Christ want to know, "What must I do to be saved"?
They are under this impresseion that God has made an offer, and whoever "takes Him up on it" will get a free "get out of jail" card.
He didn't make an offer...He made a promise to save all those that believe on His Son.
It was never phrased as an offer, even though many seem to think that it was.

God's children love Him because He first loved them ( 1 John 4:19 ).
Religious people, whose hearts have never been changed, evidence their love for the world and its ways by going back to that which they truly love...which is anything but Jesus Christ and His ways.

So, to me the charge of "spiritual rape" depends on viewpoint:

One person objects because their free will has been violated.
All they seem to see are the "requirements", and they seem to think that God somehow "owes" them salvation, if they do what is required.
I sat under this type of teaching for over 25 years...as a Baptist.

The other person, who realizes that they could have never done enough to satisfy God's requirements for gaining eternal life, falls on Christ and His finished work on the cross for them, and admit that, apart from God and His merciful grace, they would have never even been interested in an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.
I've never had the privilege to sit under this type of teaching.


Then there's the breakdown of the differing beliefs about "how to get saved":

If man cooperates with God in gaining that which is plainly shown in Scripture to be a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), then that turns the entire thing into a cooperative work that results in God granting His favor....as a reward, not a gift.
If man passively receive the gift of eternal life from God, then that is grace...not of works ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).

Man either co-operates, making the whole thing a reward, or God operates, making the whole thing a gift.
There is no in-between.

Either man earns his way out of Hell, or he is graciously given a permanent stay of execution, and then a place at God's table... forever.

In either case, He is a loving God.


In the second case, He shows that He is willing to love those He chooses to love ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:13-18 ), instead of casting the whole lot of us into Hell, where we all rightfully belong.

Thank you for that charitable post.
Many people here can learn a thing or two about approaching others with different viewpoints in a charitable, Christian manner from you.

As to what you said – I have to disagree because you seem to be misunderstanding the Catholic position.

Nobody said that we approach God on our own. That would never happen. It is God’s grace that gives is the initial push to believe. HOWEVER – it is our cooperation with that grace from that point on that is necessary for our faith to form.

Initial belief itself in NOT faith. James 2:19 assures us of this.