To the Catholics visiting the Baptist forum.

You continue to lie after you have been told many times what we believe. You are guilty of "false witness" against us, which is a serious sin indeed. Repent and ask God Almighty for forgiveness before it's too late. He offers you both forgiveness and mercy for your trespass. Repent! The Lord awaits!

 

Sadly you are mistaken. The Catholic Church teaches salvation through Jesus Christ the Savior. First one must have faith that this is true and then it's walking hand in hand with Him and following the greatest command of His which is loving one another.

 

You said it yourself.

 

You are playing semantics on what MarysSon is saying and I do not understand why you are doing this. We both believe the same thing about faith and works. I ask you, are you saved if you say you just have faith but treat the homeless person as dirt, that you don't recognize Christ in this individual? Faith, love, and works - all are required for salvation.

 

Faith is the starting point. Are you just looking for an argument or what?

 

Faith expresses itself in love, yet you could never perform enough acts of love/charity to earn salvation. So in addition to faith, how much love and works does it take? This is where we cross over into works salvation.

 

Not looking for an argument at all and from beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church, so I understand both sides of the argument.

 

WRONG
Baptists don't look to tradition, we look tro the bible for our teaching.
Catholics worship a bit of bread, or wafer.

 

I think/hope we all agree that you cannot be saved by the catholic or baptist church or any other denomination and there are many people who consider themselves one of these that are not saved and many in both that are. I think this video sums up the main issues protestant denominations have with Catholicism

 

The prob with the RCC isn't its basic preaching Jesus crucified & resurrected-it's with all the MAN-MADE bunk people have ADDED to the Gospel & its principles.

Such bunk includes mariolatry, offices of pope & cardinals, belief in purgatory, prayers to the dead, man-made "saints", & one of the worst is celibacy of the clergy. None of this trash is in SCRIPTURE. Man-made "traditions" were condemned by Jesus when He upbraided some Pharisees for enforcing some of them.

 

You are confused.

I never said that we “earn” God’s grace. That would be impossible.

HOWEVER - we cooperate with God’s grace or it CANNOT work in us. Every gift requires a recipient. If a gift is refused – it cannot be given.

John 6:40 indeed says that the Father’s will is for us to “believe” in His Son and have eternal life. What does “believing” in Christ in a Biblical sense entail?

- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

1 Tim. 2:3-4 also says that it is the will of God that ALL men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

The word used here for “Knowledge” is not the usual Greek words “Gnosis” or “Oida”. The word used here is Epignosis, which means a full, experiential and precise knowledge”. God wills that ALL MEN be saved and come to an Epignosis of the truth – yet we know this will NOT happen. God’s will is NOT always carried out. It is only carried out by those who believe in Him – in the BIBLICAL sense enumerated above.

James 2:19 tells us that even the DEMONS believe but they don’t have FAITH. James goes on to show that belief is only ONE component of faith. Surrender and obedience is the other component.

We also have to look at the way the Church has historically defined faith from the very beginning - to the 16th century when the new doctrine of “Faith” was invented. Faith has ALWAYS been interpreted as belief + surrender and obedience because the Bible teaches that unless we cooperate with God’s grace - we do NOT have true faith (Matt. 7:21, Matt. 16:24, 23:37, Mark 16:16, Luke 8:13-14, 12:42-47, 13:34, John 15:1-10, John 17:12, John 14:15, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:23-29, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, James 1:22).

 

Actually, it’s you who remains confused as you continue to try and “show horn” works “into” salvation through believing/faith. You “redefine” believing to “include” water baptism, obeying his commandments, works of mercy and charity etc..

Believing in Christ unto salvation is to place our faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. “Multiple acts of obedience” which “follow” having been saved through believing/faith is “works.” You “infuse” works “into” believing/faith and basically make no distinction between believing/faith and works, which makes works meritorious (at least in part) in earning the grace of God and obtaining salvation.

Either we are saved by trusting or else we are saved by trying. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. *You can’t have it both ways. Be sure to thoroughly read through posts #18 and #20. Also be sure to click on the link in post #19.

 

I will never forgot the conversation that I had with my mother (who is a devout Roman Catholic) several years ago soon after I received Christ through faith. I quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to her and expressed that we are saved by grace through faith, not works. She replied by saying, “I know that,” yet after probing further, I came to realize that she interpreted that as “saved by grace through faith “infused with good works” (and those good works became meritorious towards receiving salvation). She limited “not saved by works” as merely not certain works under the law. The end result was saved through faith + works — saved by “these” works and just not “those” works. So Catholics and Baptist’s may use the same vocabulary, yet not always pour the same meaning into specific terms.

 

God works in one of His children, regardless of their "co-operation".

" For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Philippians 2:13 ).
He does that which He wills.

Since He rescues His children ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ) from their rebellious and sinfully hard hearted condition ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ), He does not "rape" anyone.

What he is actually doing in one of His elect, is changing their heart in order for them to have a loving relationship with Him for eternity.
If He did not do this, no man would bother to seek Him from the heart.
We might do so in order to "get Him off our back", but never to actually have a personal and loving relationship with Him.

In other words, no one genuinely seeks Him because they love Him...
We as men "seek" Him because we're only interested in getting our "fat" out of the "fryer".

I think that's why most people I've ever run across who profess Christ want to know, "What must I do to be saved"?
They are under this impresseion that God has made an offer, and whoever "takes Him up on it" will get a free "get out of jail" card.
He didn't make an offer...He made a promise to save all those that believe on His Son.
It was never phrased as an offer, even though many seem to think that it was.

God's children love Him because He first loved them ( 1 John 4:19 ).
Religious people, whose hearts have never been changed, evidence their love for the world and its ways by going back to that which they truly love...which is anything but Jesus Christ and His ways.

So, to me the charge of "spiritual rape" depends on viewpoint:

One person objects because their free will has been violated.
All they seem to see are the "requirements", and they seem to think that God somehow "owes" them salvation, if they do what is required.
I sat under this type of teaching for over 25 years...as a Baptist.

The other person, who realizes that they could have never done enough to satisfy God's requirements for gaining eternal life, falls on Christ and His finished work on the cross for them, and admit that, apart from God and His merciful grace, they would have never even been interested in an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.
I've never had the privilege to sit under this type of teaching.


Then there's the breakdown of the differing beliefs about "how to get saved":

If man cooperates with God in gaining that which is plainly shown in Scripture to be a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), then that turns the entire thing into a cooperative work that results in God granting His favor....as a reward, not a gift.
If man passively receive the gift of eternal life from God, then that is grace...not of works ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).

Man either co-operates, making the whole thing a reward, or God operates, making the whole thing a gift.
There is no in-between.

Either man earns his way out of Hell, or he is graciously given a permanent stay of execution, and then a place at God's table... forever.

In either case, He is a loving God.


In the second case, He shows that He is willing to love those He chooses to love ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:13-18 ), instead of casting the whole lot of us into Hell, where we all rightfully belong.

 

The person who claims to have been now saved shall have some fruit to show that is true, as salvation produces the fruit and works after saved, not part of getting saved!

 

Official Catholic theology do not trust in Christ alone to save them....

 

The Church of Rome continues to call the reformed view of salvation damnable heresy, so one of us holds to real gospel, and its we who hold to Pauline justification as per Bible, and not per Rome!

 

Thank you for that charitable post.
Many people here can learn a thing or two about approaching others with different viewpoints in a charitable, Christian manner from you.

As to what you said – I have to disagree because you seem to be misunderstanding the Catholic position.

Nobody said that we approach God on our own. That would never happen. It is God’s grace that gives is the initial push to believe. HOWEVER – it is our cooperation with that grace from that point on that is necessary for our faith to form.

Initial belief itself in NOT faith. James 2:19 assures us of this.