To Those Who Hate Calvinism: What is Your BIG problem With it?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Smile..... My Friend & Brother "Yeshua1" seems to always want to touch upon the HOT Topics ....knowing full well that it could antagonize some into a pitched battle. I for one will avoid it. Tom Bryant said it best when he boiled it down to peoples understanding of soteriology & I thank him for that observation.

Personally I would prefer to discuss all of our mutual understanding of CHRIST, what He taught & what He came to earth to do. OKAY!?! :thumbs:

 

[DrJamesAch]

Iconoclast: (Post 60)

I'll only respond partially to this since you said part 2 was coming and this response doesn't come close to answering either of my responses which I am assuming will be in part 2.

But to address the issue of force. Calvinist may not admit that force is in effect, but you can't call it "Irresistible Grace" and then deny that force is involved. If a criminal resists arrest, what does law enforcement do to cause the criminal to comply? use force. Use of force is the antithesis of resistance. By the very definition John Calvin is implying that if grace can not be resisted then there must logically be something that overcomes the resistance. That is called force whether you care to admit it or not.

Not only does irresistible grace itself imply force, but no Calvinist would deny that man's will is not involved in salvation (Total Depravity), and even if that will is resurrected by God, the object is still not acting of his own free will. Even if you argue for a "Hobson's Choice" it is still not the choice of the object and thus ultimately is still God using force against the persons will.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt 2 DRja,

yet if we were preordained to salvation that can not be resisted, does it make sense that God would preordain our belief systems as well?

Just step back for a second and it is obvious that this is the only thing that makes sense.God has an eternal plan and purpose that he has revealed and made known to the church both in His Son,and in the church through the word being revealed.
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

If assurance is synonymous with salvation, then that means that not only is salvation irresistible, but so is the assurance of salvation.

You are making major mistakes here.
Salvation is 100% objective and certain
Assurance while commanded... is subjective and conditional based on obeying lawful commands and performance of the things commanded. That is what God has linked together as far as overall sanctification.... however justification stands alone as it is based on Christs work, not yours and not mine.
You desire to remove the tension of these two truths and seek to make it a "works based " argument which you can defeat...because you cannot defeat post 39....

But if assurance of salvation is irresistible

,

Once you have stated a false premise,and seek to take the discussion from a biblical one...to carnal reasoning and philosophy....you show that you cannot truthfully deal with what has already been offered. {assurance of salvation is not irresistible}

then why would scripture tell us to "make your calling and election sure"? And what would be the point of examing oneselves whether ye be in the faith or not?

Again..quite simple...Justification is certain for all the elect.Those who profess to be elect are told to "give diligence to get the title deed of their salvation"....that is what peter means by listing those things that all are part of who real Christians are,and the fruit of the Spirit...he listed those things....again;
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound,

All of these listed come in one after another in the life of Christians....as the Spirit works in a christian.....

Some of these can be counterfeited in the flesh for awhile, but scripture speaks of many times how these false works are manifest as of the flesh.

they do not work for it...they work showing that they have it....God working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure;
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

see pt 3 later....

 

[Yeshua1]

Smile..... My Friend & Brother "Yeshua1" seems to always want to touch upon the HOT Topics ....knowing full well that it could antagonize some into a pitched battle. I for one will avoid it. Tom Bryant said it best when he boiled it down to peoples understanding of soteriology & I thank him for that observation.

Personally I would prefer to discuss all of our mutual understanding of CHRIST, what He taught & what He came to earth to do. OKAY!?! :thumbs:

really NO need for thios to get boiling hot, as we should be able to stay civil, and under control, isn't that a fruit of the Spirit?

 

[saturneptune]

Smile..... My Friend & Brother "Yeshua1" seems to always want to touch upon the HOT Topics ....knowing full well that it could antagonize some into a pitched battle. I for one will avoid it. Tom Bryant said it best when he boiled it down to peoples understanding of soteriology & I thank him for that observation.

Personally I would prefer to discuss all of our mutual understanding of CHRIST, what He taught & what He came to earth to do. OKAY!?! :thumbs:

I think both you and Yeshua are a calming influence on this board even when you disagree with me or someone else. That is a talent within itself. Of course, when you disagree with me, you are wrong. LOL

 

[Iconoclast]

DrJa,
here is a main root error in your view as predicted...

And if God is not electing based on His foreknowledge of who freely chooses to receive Christ, but because election demands salvation even against the will, then that means that not everyone are sinners, only some are sinners. When Romans 5:18-19 is argued in the Calvinistic sense that only SOME were made righteous (the elect) then that means only SOME were under condemnation and judgment only came upon SOME unto that condemnation. You can't cherry pick the verse and say that many means all were sinners in the first half of the verse, and then say that many means only the elect in the last half of the verse. Thus according to Calvinism, if terms like "many" and "all" really only mean some (the elect) then that means that "ALL have sinned" can only mean that some sinned, and I'd have to guess that the some that sinned would be only the non-elect, which makes the Calvinist non sinners.

You don't get saved and then believe, you get saved BY believing. Salvation comes after the belief, but Calvinism puts the cart before the horse.

If you do not get this correct you will never come to truth;

When Romans 5:18-19 is argued in the Calvinistic sense that only SOME were made righteous (the elect) then that means only SOME were under condemnation and judgment only came upon SOME unto that condemnation. You can't cherry pick the verse and say that many means all were sinners in the first half of the verse, and then say that many means only the elect in the last half of the verse

If you understand it biblically that is exactly what it says.....

ALL mankind was in Adam by physical birth

All in Christ started dead in Adam by physical birth....but By new birth, or rather being born from above they are In Christ..

Not all mankind are described as ......ALL In Christ

ALL In ADAM...does not equal ALL In Christ.......

if you deny this ...you are denying the basis of the gospel.

First to this argument, if total depravity implies that the sinner is so dead in trespasses that God has to wake him up just to hear Him, then explain how Adam was still able to not only hear God, but also respond to Him after eating the fruit. Genesis 3:9-10.

Romans 5 makes it clear that Adam was dead the moment he ate of the fruit, yet in his dead state, he could still hear God as well as respond to Him.

Furthermore, in Romans 1:19, Paul clearly shows that those dead in sin can still understand and perceive the nature of God and the truth of God.

Clearly this is another falsehood.Scripture describes spiritually dead persons as quite religious, but never in God's way.they make religion and idols that they like.

2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

 

[Yeshua1]

DrJa,
here is a main root error in your view as predicted...

Unless/until the Holy spirit quickens/enables a sinner to actually be able to hear ansd respond to the lord jesus, he is the same as Buddah or Muhhamed to them, another religious leader, nothing more or less!

 

[Iconoclast]

Pt4

Actually, every major error begins with a misunderstanding about the nature of God.

Nope..it is a wrong view of sin and the fall, and then a wrong view of scripture itself....man has lost the capacity to rightly understand divine revelation ...correctly..it must be God given.

And you say "Jesus taught men are bound not free"? First of all, scripture and verse please.

Sure...right here:

You are attempting to argue as the jews in Jn 8 did..jesus told them what was what>>>.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Secondly, Jesus said the opposite in Matthew 17:26 and John 8:32.

no...you look right at it and miss it???

Furthermore, in Matthew 23:37, Jesus made it clear that Jerusalem had rejected Christ of their own free will:

The text no where mentions "free will" at all scripture does not mention the false idea of a will that is "free'....your will is bound by your nature....romans 618-18 i posted before.

Men have a will that is bound and a slave to sin....they are servants....willing bondslaves to sin...they have self will which is sinful.

inMT 23 :37 IT DECLARES THEIR CONDITION....You WILL NOT.....come to me....no man comes to God unless drawn by the Father....that is why He wept over them ....he was willing, they were responsible but...would not come.
"how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

 

[Yeshua1]

Pt4



Nope..it is a wrong view of sin and the fall, and then a wrong view of scripture itself....man has lost the capacity to rightly understand divine revelation ...correctly..it must be God given.



Sure...right here:

You are attempting to argue as the jews in Jn 8 did..jesus told them what was what>>>.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.






no...you look right at it and miss it???


The text no where mentions "free will" at all scripture does not mention the false idea of a will that is "free'....your will is bound by your nature....romans 618-18 i posted before.

Men have a will that is bound and a slave to sin....they are servants....willing bondslaves to sin...they have self will which is sinful.

inMT 23 :37 IT DECLARES THEIR CONDITION....You WILL NOT.....come to me....no man comes to God unless drawn by the Father....that is why He wept over them ....he was willing, they were responsible but...would not come.
"how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

His view makes sense IF we all had the same exact 'free will" adam had from God to chose, but sue to the fall, we are ALL under the "Bondage of the Will" to quote Luther!

 

[preacher4truth]

His view makes sense IF we all had the same exact 'free will" adam had from God to chose, but sue to the fall, we are ALL under the "Bondage of the Will" to quote Luther!

I'm certain he meant another and not 'pt4'.

 

[Iconoclast]

His view makes sense IF we all had the same exact 'free will" adam had from God to chose, but sue to the fall, we are ALL under the "Bondage of the Will" to quote Luther!

I do not believe free will exists......in heaven we will not be free to sin.
No one is "free" to act independent from their nature. I will not argue the semantics of it as those who depart from scripture like to do .
They know scripture does not support this idea , so they must go to philosophy to supply an answer for themselves.
I lost a large response having pressed the wrong button,,,so i will slowly answer all these ideas.

 

[Iconoclast]

DRJa,

And if God is not electing based on His foreknowledge of who freely chooses to receive Christ

God does not elect us based on what we do, or will do....He choose us while we were yet sinners, and quite unlovely.
You are posting a wrong view of foreknowledge. God foreknows persons.....not the actions of the persons{while God knows all possible actions and cannot increase or diminish in knowledge or understanding} the biblical language is:

For .....WHOM....he did foreknow...not WHat He did foreknow as you suggest.

 

[Rippon]

Calvinism is a perverse way of interpreting Scripture that twists the meaning of the Gospel so as to put God in a position of being a monster, which He certainly is not.

If you had a Bible to a new Christian he would never come up with this bizarre belief on his own without outside coaching.

Robert Snow:
10/25/2011 : "The fact is,that I don't view Calvinism as heresy,there is much truth in it,I just don't think it is altogether correct."

2/27/2011 : "I was not calling Calvinism as false..."

 

[Iconoclast]

Robert Snow:
10/25/2011 : "The fact is,that I don't view Calvinism as heresy,there is much truth in it,I just don't think it is altogether correct."

2/27/2011 : "I was not calling Calvinism as false..."

:laugh::laughpps.....busted...:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

A Calvinist can not claim that because what happens if you backslide? Since your proof of election is based on performance, then if you backslide, there goes your assurance

In the bible backsliding is apostasy...it is used 17 times in 3 ot books...it is always rebellion and apostasy to perdition.

What I believe you mean is when we sin...do we lose some degree of assurance...of course we do.I am not saying some small sin....but if we take sin lightly and our lives can be described as the same as the unsaved ...day after day....there is no grounds for any biblical assurance.

And once again, you continue to make an argument based upon sanctification to prove your assurance of justification

The scripture links the two as part of the whole. They can be spoken of separately but they are linked for most regular christians.....no fruit...no root.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I'm not sure my problems would fit in a brief post.

For Calvinism to be right, God has to be the reason there is evil. I understand and have heard the arguments against this conclusion, but none of them have been convincing. That makes God either uncaring, maniacal or worse, both!

That should be enough to get the fire stoked up pretty hot.

If God was maniacal, uncaring, or worse, both, he would have began with the destruction of angels which He created.
Instead, He showed mercy to them, who had not yet sinned by ELECTING them to share heaven with Him.
If this were not so, then Paul, who heard unspeakable things, would not have made mention of ELECT ANGELS to his protege, Timothy.
He showed the same mercy and exercised the same sovereignty over fallen human beings.
This points to one thing: CREATED BEINGS, whether angels or man, need the Sovereign electing love of God and He knows it.
Without that, we all deserve hell, or annihilation, including Calvin, no matter how many Servetuses he burned at the stake, or pleaded for.

 

[preacher4truth]

Robert Snow:
10/25/2011 : "The fact is,that I don't view Calvinism as heresy,there is much truth in it,I just don't think it is altogether correct."

2/27/2011 : "I was not calling Calvinism as false..."

Robert Snow in Heaven:

"Yes Lord, I am now a Calvinist!"

 

[Iconoclast]

Robert Snow in Heaven:

"Yes Lord, I am now a Calvinist!"

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


here is it in isa
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I just want to say that three of the people I disagree with the most doctrinally are Icon, EWF, and SN, and yet they are my three best friends here. Ironic, ain't it? :laugh:

 

[Mexdeaf]

I just want to say that three of the people I disagree with the most doctrinally are Icon, EWF, and SN, and yet they are my three best friends here. Ironic, ain't it? :laugh:

The BB makes for strange bedfellows, indeed.