To Those Who Hate Calvinism: What is Your BIG problem With it?

[Yeshua1]

Probably one of my biggest "beefs" with Calvinism (among many as it is a lengthy debate) is that it ultimately leads to Arminianism.

A Calvinist can not have any real assurance of salvation if the criteria of being saved depends on being of the elect and chosen by God. When the Bible says to examine yourselves whether you are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5) where is the Biblical test to verify that you are one of the elect?

There is a difference in having assurance of your salvation knowing that 1 John 5:13 says that you CAN KNOW, and then hoping that you are saved based on whether God elected you. Since there is no way to verify whether you are elect, then the test for salvation ultimately rests on works in a Calvinist context.

The only way that a Calvinist can truly attempt to confirm his/her election is if they maintain good works unto the end, and that is classic Arminianism.

actually, we can and do know that we have passed over from the darkness to the Light, as one now loves the bethren, reads and understands the bible, and knows jesus is the Onbe who saved Him, the One who paid the sin debt for them due God!

The Holy spirit Himself bears that witness, for none knows jesus as the saved but the saved, as those who are his sheep hears him and follow Him!

 

[Mexdeaf]

Probably one of my biggest "beefs" with Calvinism (among many as it is a lengthy debate) is that it ultimately leads to Arminianism.

A Calvinist can not have any real assurance of salvation if the criteria of being saved depends on being of the elect and chosen by God. When the Bible says to examine yourselves whether you are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5) where is the Biblical test to verify that you are one of the elect?

There is a difference in having assurance of your salvation knowing that 1 John 5:13 says that you CAN KNOW, and then hoping that you are saved based on whether God elected you. Since there is no way to verify whether you are elect, then the test for salvation ultimately rests on works in a Calvinist context.

The only way that a Calvinist can truly attempt to confirm his/her election is if they maintain good works unto the end, and that is classic Arminianism.

You have been drinking from the poisoned well also, I see.

 

[preacher4truth]

Probably one of my biggest "beefs" with Calvinism (among many as it is a lengthy debate) is that it ultimately leads to Arminianism.

A Calvinist can not have any real assurance of salvation if the criteria of being saved depends on being of the elect and chosen by God. When the Bible says to examine yourselves whether you are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5) where is the Biblical test to verify that you are one of the elect?

There is a difference in having assurance of your salvation knowing that 1 John 5:13 says that you CAN KNOW, and then hoping that you are saved based on whether God elected you. Since there is no way to verify whether you are elect, then the test for salvation ultimately rests on works in a Calvinist context.

The only way that a Calvinist can truly attempt to confirm his/her election is if they maintain good works unto the end, and that is classic Arminianism.

Wow what a misnomer and straw man.

1 Thessalonians 1:4 and following shows that we concisely KNOW we are elect AND saved and conveys both knowing --and-- that we can know 'because'. Your argument is invalid and again a straw man. No need to misrepresent the reformed brothers with your erroneous presuppositions.

So yes contrary to your misrepresentation we do know we're elect. Those who are non-cal/anti-cal in theology? Not so much. Many argue they can't know they are chosen when in fact the above passage refutes their myth. Thus the reformed position adheres to a Scriptural position of knowing.

- Blessings

 

[quantumfaith]

I certainly do not hate Calvinism... now some calvinists is a different story... :tongue3: but then I am not too fond of alot of traditionalists.

I don't agree with Calvinism, but I don't think it's a heresy or anything even close to it. It's just a different way to explain soteriorlogy, so why would I hate it?

:applause::applause::applause:

 

[jonathanD]

Post number 2 translated says if you think Calvinism is false doctrine, your understanding of Calvinism is flawed and obscure

You're translation is off.

 

[Rippon]

John Calvin's burning is lasting an eternity as we speak.

How inconsistent you are. Somewhere else you said that you are in no position to judge the eternal destiny of anyone. Now you switch gears and you freely condemn someone to eternal flames.

 

[Rippon]

No one knows anyones eternal destiny for sure.

It's a case of Sat/Nep vs. Sat/Nep.

 

[saturneptune]

It's a case of Sat/Nep vs. Sat/Nep.

No, it is a case of you uplifting a murderer.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Wow what a misnomer and straw man.

1 Thessalonians 1:4 and following shows that we concisely KNOW we are elect AND saved and conveys both knowing --and-- that we can know 'because'. Your argument is invalid and again a straw man. No need to misrepresent the reformed brothers with your erroneous presuppositions.

So yes contrary to your misrepresentation we do know we're elect. Those who are non-cal/anti-cal in theology? Not so much. Many argue they can't know they are chosen when in fact the above passage refutes their myth. Thus the reformed position adheres to a Scriptural position of knowing.

- Blessings

You miss the point of the argument entirely. 1 Thess 1:4 is not itself the proof that you are elect. That is circular reasoning. What is the basis on which you know you are of the elect? Do you have access to the book of life? Is your name written in the Psalms in code somewhere? On what do you base your assurance that you are of the elect?

If you give an HONEST answer to that question, then you will find that my statement was not a straw man argument. You will either answer it directly or dodge it altogether.

 

[DrJamesAch]

actually, we can and do know that we have passed over from the darkness to the Light, as one now loves the bethren, reads and understands the bible, and knows jesus is the Onbe who saved Him, the One who paid the sin debt for them due God!

The Holy spirit Himself bears that witness, for none knows jesus as the saved but the saved, as those who are his sheep hears him and follow Him!

I am not disagreeing that we can know that we are saved. I believe in eternal security whole heartedly.

But when you change the definition of how a person is saved (free choice or irresistable grace) you change how one determines the assurance of their salvation. Even in your own example, you offer things to prove assurance that are performance based (those who are his sheep hears him and follow Him) and thus the argument still stands that the end result of Calvinism is Arminianism.

 

[salzer mtn]

I don't think that Calvin meant for a system to be named after him. I had rather refer to it as the doctrines of grace. What really convinced me that the doctrines of grace is true vs doctrines of works is the Sprit of God. Once a person takes grace into the soul it is like water to a thirsty soul. It is like a breath of fresh air you have to have or smother to death. It's like a heart beat to a dead body. Only those that believe as i do know what i'm talking about. I was once proud under Arminiam doctrine, i only viewed religion as what man does for God. Now i see myself as nothing at all and i have learned by experience that God can do his work without my help whatsoever. Arminiamism is a man exalting doctrine that teaches that God must have help from man or nothing will get done. To be in a worship service that preaches Christ and abases man, to be in a service that only sing songs that glorify Christ like Holy Holy Holy Lord God almighty, to be in a service where the people only want to hear one message and that message is Christ is to be my friend in a grace service.

 

[Crabtownboy]

What would be your main beef?

Do you lump 4/5 pointers together as saying same things?

After reading a huge number of posts on Calvinism, and reading about Calvin and Augustine I have been convinced that Calvinism is Gnosticism. Also the folk who are Calvinistic on the BB have convinced me that Calvinism is very wrong and makes God into a monster. [Said gently.]

I doubt that Calvin would agree with much the folks here say about his theology.

 

[plain_n_simple]

What would be your main beef?

It is a lie straight from the devil.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Can we get a 1 sentence response please?

No problem.

Calvinsim is over flowing with heretical doctrines and ridiculous, man made falshoods.

I wish that wasnt true, but ..alas, it is.

 

[Tom Butler]

Probably one of my biggest "beefs" with Calvinism (among many as it is a lengthy debate) is that it ultimately leads to Arminianism.

A Calvinist can not have any real assurance of salvation if the criteria of being saved depends on being of the elect and chosen by God. When the Bible says to examine yourselves whether you are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5) where is the Biblical test to verify that you are one of the elect?

There is a difference in having assurance of your salvation knowing that 1 John 5:13 says that you CAN KNOW, and then hoping that you are saved based on whether God elected you. Since there is no way to verify whether you are elect, then the test for salvation ultimately rests on works in a Calvinist context.

The only way that a Calvinist can truly attempt to confirm his/her election is if they maintain good works unto the end, and that is classic Arminianism.

My salvation is not dependent on whether I confirm my election or not. My salvation is based on the blood of Jesus, and being obedient to his command to repent and trust Him, to confess Him as Lord, to call on His name.

Even then, God has provided the illumination, the conviction of sin, the drawing to Himself, and the regeneration, which is truly salvation by grace.

My assurance comes from the awareness that He has changed me, and beats up on me when I sin.

 

[Mexdeaf]

"Calvinsim is over flowing with heretical doctrines and ridiculous, man made falshoods."

"It is a lie straight from the devil."

"After reading a huge number of posts on Calvinism, and reading about Calvin and Augustine I have been convinced that Calvinism is Gnosticism. Also the folk who are Calvinistic on the BB have convinced me that Calvinism is very wrong and makes God into a monster."

So much ignorance, so little time... after the semester is over, perhaps.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

What would be your main beef?

Do you lump 4/5 pointers together as saying same things?

Simple: Calvinism is not only non-scriptural but anti-scriptural.

 

[Iconoclast]

DrJamesAch

Probably one of my biggest "beefs" with Calvinism (among many as it is a lengthy debate) is that it ultimately leads to Arminianism.

This does not make any biblical sense at all.

A Calvinist can not have any real assurance of salvation if the criteria of being saved depends on being of the elect and chosen by God.

All christians are commanded to get a biblical assurance of their salvation.This is why P4T, called your statement a strawman.

When the Bible says to examine yourselves whether you are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5) where is the Biblical test to verify that you are one of the elect?

The "biblical test" to get a scriptural assurance of ones CALLING and ELECTION...is clearly stated in scripture in a way that is un mistakable:

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.


Here the duty of seeking ,maintaining, and keeping in remembrance "THESE THINGS".....listed in verses 5,6,7,...are very clear. The fruit of the Spirit gives issue to all these virtues and manifestations of fruit of the Spirit.
To not do this ,is to sin against the commandment of God:thumbsup:

Not only that....but the language of calling and election is only correctly spoken of in the calvinistic model.:wavey:

There is a difference in having assurance of your salvation knowing that 1 John 5:13 says that you CAN KNOW, and then hoping that you are saved based on whether God elected you. Since there is no way to verify whether you are elect, then the test for salvation ultimately rests on works in a Calvinist context.

You are exhibiting a series of errors here that leads to your wrong view....
you contradict yourself in using 1jn 5:13, because the view you espouse does not have room for this verse.....

Who God has elected is His concern. Do we have the marks of a scripturally converted person is at issue. Peter is clear we are commanded to do so. John is clear that we can KNOW.....this is not possible if it depended upon our works as you say. Calvinists know that ;
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The only way that a Calvinist can truly attempt to confirm his/her election is if they maintain good works unto the end, and that is classic Arminianism.

If there are no good works, if there is no fruit in the life, that person is most likely a false professor of faith....they are yet carnal in the heart...
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Again...another verse that only finds full expression in the calvinist model you speak against. Perhaps you would like like to take a fresh look at it.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

DrJamesAch

I am not disagreeing that we can know that we are saved. I believe in eternal security whole heartedly.

All christians have to agree on "some things".This shows an inconsitency that is a familiar pattern.Almost every error starts with a wrong view, of sin and death in the fall, or a wrong view of scripture....

But when you change the definition of how a person is saved (free choice or irresistable grace) you change how one determines the assurance of their salvation.

However it is you who do this.....Jesus taught men are "bound"...not free. Your view of the fall is Adam was only wounded....and not dead.
So then you deny the need for the Spirit to effectually draw all the Father gave to the Son...even after Jesus taught clearly that ALL such who are given, WILL ...come.......no more no less.....All given come by God's mercy and grace.

Even in your own example, you offer things to prove assurance that are performance based (those who are his sheep hears him and follow Him) and thus the argument still stands that the end result of Calvinism is Arminianism.

Jesus spoke of performance, and all our Good works are also ORDAINED of God...Eph2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The works flow from God himself . You try to make a christianity without works...making no biblical sense at all.

if our good works came from us on our own...we would not be called unprofitable servants....

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

 

[preacher4truth]

You miss the point of the argument entirely. 1 Thess 1:4 is not itself the proof that you are elect. That is circular reasoning. What is the basis on which you know you are of the elect? Do you have access to the book of life? Is your name written in the Psalms in code somewhere? On what do you base your assurance that you are of the elect?

If you give an HONEST answer to that question, then you will find that my statement was not a straw man argument. You will either answer it directly or dodge it altogether.

Dr.JamesAch,

I got your point and proved your myth incorrect. So have others. You should retract your errors and adjust your theology accordingly.

The Scripture given proves election unequivocally and you call it circular reasoning. I answered your erroneous presupposition honestly so even if you capitalize the word it doesn't matter as I've given an ample HONEST answer.

Plainly the passage I gave you says we KNOW our election of God BECAUSE of several things in the context. Look at whose dodging truth. I highly doubt you even looked at the text and if you did you either read it through your disdain for truth or you simply cannot exegete Scripture or lastly you will not allow Gods Word to have preeminence over your presuppositionally biased 'theology'. The anti-reformed will even argue plain Scripture to hold onto false presuppositions which in this case is that 'we cannot know' when it's Scripturally proven we do know and why we know. Furthermore what you're actually teaching is false doctrine. How do I know I'm elect? Because He Saved me.

Now, where in Scripture does it say I need to look into the book of life or in 'psalms code' or your other foolish suggestions to know? That's right, it doesn't yet again I've given you sound Scriptural basis. You in turn run to accusatory absurdities. Fitting. It's a pattern with you. You go from one straw man to another and absurdity to absurdity and false accusation to false accusation. Why not get off that road of nonsense and try using Scripture as others and myself have used? The passage I gave is clear evidence and there are more passages. Thanks.