What Calvinist documents do you imagine he reads?
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To What Degree do you believe a lost soul Assists God in their "Salvation"?
- Thread starter Alan Gross
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So how does your view fit with what you said?
"Iet's be clear here, the lost do not in any way assist God in their salvation. If anything the lost hinder their salvation."
How can a self willed being, not assist God, but still be self willing themselves to be saved?
I'm trying to figure out how you resolve your seeming contradiction.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Here's my document Acts 5:31
37818
Well-Known Member
Truth is not a contradiction here.
Romans 6:16, explains why what people think to be their free will is not really free as they suppose, ". . . Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? . . ." And salvation cannot be merited in any way. Romans 6:23. And you know this. And I am not a Calvinist. It is God who does the saving. Not our believing.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
37818
So why do you believe people Christ died for remain lost in their sins and die in their sins ?
So why do you believe people Christ died for remain lost in their sins and die in their sins ?
It honestly doesn't matter to me about Calvin. I haven't read his material.
It seems as though you are saying that the human will has no capacity to choose God in salvation, as an assistance on their part. Human will does not cause God to graciously save. Humans cannot choose to believe while remaining dead in their sins.
Is that accurate? I am still trying to understand your meaning when you said: "Iet's be clear here, the lost do not in any way assist God in their salvation. If anything the lost hinder their salvation."
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
There are only two possible interpretations that can be made from Peter’s statement.
Either God was by His sovereign authority gave each and every totally-depraved, unable-to-repent Israelite the ability and the will to repent by His irresistible grace.
(note that Peter said that Jesus granted repentance to Israel, not some Israelites),
or God was granting all Israel, individually and corporately, the opportunity to repent, as well as His gracious help in their repentance.
I would ask which one you would choose, but as a Calvinist you don't have that ability as every thing has been determined for you.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
1Ti_2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
How can your version of God decrees all things down to the movement of a molecule and yet not be responsible for all the sin in the world. I'm trying to figure out how you resolve that contradiction.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its crystal clear, Jesus as a Prince and Saviour gives repentance and forgiveness of sins Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Thats what a Saviour does, He changes sinners, gives them a new heart, new life, new mind. Blots out our sins !
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
That question wasn't for you !
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So does He save all {universalism} or does He give man free will to man so only those that trust in Him will be saved. Act 5:31 only gives you two options. Which one do you choose.
There are only two possible interpretations that can be made from Peter’s statement.
Either God was by His sovereign authority gave each and every totally-depraved, unable-to-repent Israelite the ability and the will to repent by His irresistible grace.
(note that Peter said that Jesus granted repentance to Israel, not some Israelites),
or God was granting all Israel, individually and corporately, the opportunity to repent, as well as His gracious help in their repentance.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So you don't like the answer?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
silverhair
Neither, what kind of question is this ? Coming out of left field.
Jesus as Saviour gives them He saves repentance. Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Now He doesnt give repentance to all, but to Israel, a elect people. Israel here is a elect people made up of jews and gentiles, spiritual israel
Neither, what kind of question is this ? Coming out of left field.
Jesus as Saviour gives them He saves repentance. Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Now He doesnt give repentance to all, but to Israel, a elect people. Israel here is a elect people made up of jews and gentiles, spiritual israel
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Again the question wasnt for you, so let it go !
37818
Well-Known Member
I am not understanding your difficulty. God provides a gift. A gift cannot bought or deserved.
Is it a gift for all people or for only particular people? What act of the human will is required for the gift to be received or is God the giver of the gift with nothing required from man?
You wrote:
"Iet's be clear here, the lost do not in any way assist God in their salvation. If anything the lost hinder their salvation."
37818
Well-Known Member
Since I hold that the general redemption is true, the gift is available to all.
The gift being accepted as a the gift. Understood to be not merited or to be bought.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
37818
Yet scripture doesnt teach that. Salvation is for a elect people, Israel Isa 45:17
17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Yet scripture doesnt teach that. Salvation is for a elect people, Israel Isa 45:17
17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
If it is a gift, available (received and retrieved) by all, and God doesn't choose whom He will give it to, then who needs to do the work to recognize that a gift is lying around, and the gift needs to be opened up, and the gift needs to be used?
Who chooses to open the gift?
Do you not see that you present God as a passive, general, gift giver who says "I have a gift...if you choose to want it...but that is entirely up to you."
That view is entirely contrary to the God who adopted us before the creation of the world. The God who, while we were still dead in sins, made us alive with Christ.
How do you live with such a contradiction between your belief and God's stated explanation of what He did?
I know for myself, I couldn't live with that contradiction. I had to accept that God did all the work, including opening the gift and implanting this gift of faith into my heart so that I would be justified by the atoning work of Christ Jesus on my behalf.
God is not passively sitting as though he were a fruit stand attendant, waiting for people to receive what he is offering for free. The Bible never portrays God in that light, therefore neither do I.
37, I can see the obstacle in your understanding. I once had the same obstacle. God was kind to show me my error so I could rightly honor Him as Sovereign Savior who acted in grace on my behalf.
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