To what extent is the Bible infallible and inerrant?

Um...Matt. I did not call you names. I did not question your faith.
What is your question if not stupid? Perhaps stupid was a poor choice of words, and I apologize.
Of course God does not condone murdering babies. But that is not the same as executing judgement on a people group who were so wicked as to sacrifice their own babies to gods of stone. In light of which; as an aside: I suspect we Westerners who abort our babies are not long for this earth either. I expect God to use some people group to judge us as well. Much like He did the Babylonians in judging Israel.
The problem with applying our own sense of morality on our God is that He says His ways are so much higher than ours that we cannot understand it. I trust that statement, don't you? I simply trust Him. What seems inconsistent with His revelation of Himself in Christ and His revelation of Himself in the OT, is nothing more than my puny brain's inability to understand the Infinite. I think it not wise to re-invent God based on a one-sided view of Christ.

I never question the accuracy of Scripture. It gives us the "good, the bad and the ugly". My finite mind cannot always grasp some things, but I never question the Book. What is recorded is true. What is revealed of God is true. When I see an alledged inconsistency, it is my fault, not the fault of God or His pen-men.

In HIS service;
Jim

In HIS service;
Jim

 

David and Matt (and maybe Charles), you all are going to have a hard time when Jesus comes again to judge and cast out the wicked. His wrath on sin then is nothing compared to what you disagree with in the OT.

You seem to think the OT is different from the NT. But Jesus is God the Son and is in complete harmony with the the Father of the OT. They never disagree. I also believe in the revelation of Jesus Christ, but that revelation does not contradict the OT or the accounts of the cities being wiped out. Jesus is no wimp; He is also the righteous Judge. Yes, Jesus came out of love, but he will judge the wicked and cast out those who are not saved in Him. Jesus spoke more of punishment and hell than of love.

God is love and he is also righteousness, justice, and mercy -- all at the same time. He must judge sin; this is what we see in the OT when cities and peoples were judged by God. It is just a foretaste of what Jesus will do when He returns. How can you question God's judgment on sin? I am truly amazed that there are Baptists who do not think God commanded judgment and destruction in the OT.

 

Marcia,

I have no disagreement with the notion that God judges sin. You have chosen a very fundamentalist stance overall - and you have thus already decided where you stand on the issues before you do the study. That's your choice.

And I think there will be some surprises when Jesus returns. I think there will be a good number of those harsh, finger-pointing, judgmental, Pharisee types who hear, "I never knew you".

 

Well said.

 

Jim,

What is revealed of God is true. When I see an alledged inconsistency, it is my fault, not the fault of God or His pen-men.

I'd agree with that, mostly. When I see an alleged inconsistency I ask myself why it seems to be an inconsistency.

The problem I see with your scheme of interpretation is that it limits, and not glorifies God. Would you even consider the possibility of copyist errors or a nonliteral Genesis 1?

I'm guessing the answer is "no".

God gave me a brain and I'm going to use it to learn more about His word. If that rocks the boat of various PEOPLE who are afraid of any change that is of no consequence to me.

Let God be true and every man a liar!

Or is that, "Let God be true as long as He agrees with IFB doctrine"?

 

Marcia, that's fine according to a fundamentalist interpretation of Scripture; others, including <shock!> other Baptists, as has been made clear, have different interpretations.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

i have several different translations of the Bible I that I study from and they all say the exact same thing about Gods wrath, Judgement Grace , Mercy and how to attain grace and mercy and how wrath and judgement will abide on those who do not want his grace and mercy.
every word from the In the begenning God to The Grace of out lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. is God Breathed.

 

The issue is not one of translation, but of interpretation. Many of us use the same translation, but still are widely varied in interpreting things as benign as women and headcovering or the wearing of pants, use of alcohol, etc, and as debatable as differing forms of millenialism and dispensationalism. Even the issue of which day the Sabbath day is, or whether the Ten Commandments are in full effect today, are hotly contested interpretatioanl debates.

 

So the true prophets' testimony who said these nations were wiped out because of their iniquities is true or false? And Jeremiah's testimony that Judah would be sacked because of it's iniquities is true or not? According to you, the reasons given by the prophets in the Bible are made up unless they align up to what you decide is proper within your own understanding of Jesus Christ, but in fact you're left with not even knowing if Christ's revelation is true or not in all its particulars, because it may well have been made up by the founders of the Christian religion. And what you're left with is a religion where truth and standards of faith and practice are decided by oneself with the limited corroboration of Scripture.

Yours,

Bluefalcon

 

So is the Bible in error concerning Noah's flood and Sodom and Gomorrah?

Like I said Matt, it's not my idea and didn't originate with me. Jesus confirmed the events above, I believe Him, both the destruction part and the verse you quoted.

Not that you don't and I understand your conflict.

HankD

 

Genocide?

God never destroyed anything that didn't deserve it. He is sovereign and justified in every thing He does.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

The account of God's destruction of cities and nations in the OT, including numerous passages where such destruction is also prophesied by God's prophets, has nothing to do with a fundamentalist view or interpretation of the Bible! It's just what the Bible plainly says.

If you think the Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, David's wars upon the Philistines and others, and the destruction of numerous other groups is something inserted falsely into the Bible, then you are rejecting major portions of the Bible, including much of Joshua where he is led in battle by the Lord, and 1 and 2and many other accounts, too numerous to even take time to count up.

In essence, you are saying the same things I heard from my New Age friends and what New Agers say today (and the skeptics as well) -- that the Jewish people were a warlike people bent on destroying those who did not worship their God. I and my friends did not believe that God led the Israelites in battle. Are you agreeing with this view?

If I believed that today, I would throw out the whole Bible, because what good is it if such major parts of it are "wrong" and how would I decide what was right and what wasn't?

If you don't believe God led OT men in battle, it changes many stories significantly. Just look at the story of Saul and the Amalekites in 1 Sam 15.

You would have to invalidate Samuel as a prophet as well, or say he was lying, or that he never said this. Are you willing to do that?

Saul did not obey God and let people keep some of the sheep, oxen, and other spoil. Samuel rebuked Saul, and in fact, this is the passage with that famous phrase, "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft (or divination)" and it's where God pronounces, through Samuel, disfavor on Saul:

In the following verses, Samuel tells Saul that the Lord has torn the kingdom from Saul that day and given it to another. Samuel then kills Agag, the Amalekite king, finishing Saul's job for him: "And Samuel hewed Agag to pieces before the Lord at Gilgal," (v. 33b).

So all this is not true?

You better take out passages in 1 Chron. as well that parallel 1 Samuel.

In fact, if you doubt that God spoke these things through Samuel and led Joshua, Saul, David and others in battle against pagan peoples, your OT is going to have more holes than swiss cheese.

 

Back to Gen 1? We have gone over that in many threads. Would I consider it non-literal? I used to. I don't now because it reads as a literal narrative. But we've covered this.

Yes, God gave me a brain, too, and I constantly tell people in my talks we need to use it. That's why I'm in apologetics. You are not rocking the boat; you are doubting the veracity of God's word.

I'm not IFB, btw. In fact, I didn't even know what IFB was until I came to this board this past May. You seem to think that anyone who believes the Bible is IFB and you pigeonhole them.

 

Ummmmm...Marcia?
Charles was addressing me. Not that you would have noticed. You, sister, seem to be on a roll here, so roll on by.
You hijacker you!

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Charles;
Please explain how "my scheme of things" limits God. I was not the one on this thread who tried to apply my morality upon God.

No, I would not consider "copyist errors" or a non-literal Genesis 1.

I have a brain, also. I use it to learn as much as I can. Why, just in this past year I have had a VERY RADICAL change in my theology. If you knew me very well you would understand that, that was a very difficult thing. I don't do change well at all. And like you, (it seems) I enjoy rocking folks' boats. Most folks are WAY too complacent in their cushy American Christianity.

I am IFB. and so is God! Your comment seems as though you disaprove of IFB?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Sorry!

This topic is a crucial one and I am fired up!

 

It's quite alright Sis.
I'm on your side (I think).

In HIS service;
Jim

 

what I seem to be hearing, (I could be wrong)
fron a young Christian persons view; they continually hear from their non Christian friends or aqquaintences maybe something like this, " if youre God is such a loving and merciful God why did he destroy all those places and destroy the world with a flood? that don't sound like a loving and merciful god to me!" or something to that effect,and most young christians simply dont Know how to answer the question what the christian will try to do is justify God by trying to explain to their friends that God didnt really do all that bad stuff the bible says he did.the christian dont properly deal with the issue of the concequences of sin, instead they will try to skirt around the issue
Young folks Make NO MISTAKE God HATES sin!
and God poured out His Wrath on human many times
Because of SIN Period.
I think when evil begins to run so rampant that God Has no choice but to put an end to what man evidently cannot control.

Sin is also why Jesus had to come down from His throne and heaven and be a Lamb but when He returns he is returning as a Conquerer to once agin rid the plannrt from evil.

you dont have to believe it still dont Change the fact that is the truth according to the Bible people if this bible is not the word of truth from cover to cover it is all a big lie.

now you get to talking about all the legalisim, is nothing much more than a bunch of Church politicks and down right high-N-mighty self righteoussness! no one should care what another person wears as long as it is decent Jesus Didnt so why should we, Paul told Timothy to drink wine, If drinking wine is sinful why then would Jesus turn the water to wine? I could be wrong but it is ok to drink alcohol in moderation. Christian women were comanded to preach the gospel they just cant be a pastor.
there are 4 different Millineal views that I know of but I can guarantee you this, it will happen exactly according to Gods Soverign will and Not of Mans Theological interpritations.

the Sabbath day is pretty cut and dry; it is the 7th day of the week and most Baptist Worship God on sunday. I Rest On Saturday, on Sunday Go to Church for Worship, Dicipleship and fellowship and worship God continually thru the whole week.

I have a question for all these 7th day folks.
after Church service do you go out to a restauraunt to eat or go home and cook a meal.
although you attend a Sabbath worship service you have still broken the commandment by either buying or working so are you a sSabbath keeper or just another Sinner Saved by grace that goes to Church on Sunday instead of when every one else does?
Exedous 20:8-11 says 8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

how are we supposed to keep the rest of the commandments when we cant even get this one right?
I think that where John Chapter 3 starts to make a lot of sence.

the Commandments are there to teach us what sin is so yes they are in effect, in effect that we know what sin is
How can we have the convicting power of the Holy Spirit to admonish us of our sins if we do not understand what sin is?

according to the law I am a lying thieving. lustful, Idoloterous God slandering covetous sabbath breaker!

But the Blood of Jesus!

folks this is what this whole book is about all sumed up in one single chapter.

1. There was a man named Nicodemus. He was a Jewish leader, one of the Pharisees.
2. This man came to Jesus at night. Nicodemus said to him, ``Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. No one could do these miracles which you are performing, if God were not with him.''
3. Jesus answered him, ``I am telling you the truth: If a person is not born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God!''
4. Nicodemus asked him, ``When a man is already old, how can he be reborn? It is not possible for him to go inside his mother's womb the second time and be born!''
5. Jesus answered, ``I am telling you the truth: If a person is not born from water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God!
6. What has been born from men is human. And what has been born from the Spirit is spiritual.
7. Don't be surprised because I said this to you: `You must be born again.'
8. The wind blows wherever it wishes. You hear the sound of it, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going. It is the same way with everyone who has been born from the Spirit.''
9. Nicodemus answered Jesus, ``How can these things happen?''
10. Jesus answered him, ``Are you a teacher of the people of Israel, and you don't know these things?
11. I am telling you the truth: We are talking about what we know. We are telling the truth about what we have seen. But you are not accepting our truth.
12. Since I am talking to you about things on earth and you are not believing them, if I were to tell you about heavenly things, how could you believe?
13. I am the only one who ever came down from heaven; no one else has ever gone up to heaven.
14. Moses lifted up the snake in the desert . In the same way, I must be lifted high,
15. so that everyone who commits himself to me will have eternal life.''
16. God loved the people of the world so much that He gave up His only Son. Every person who commits himself to Jesus will not be destroyed. Instead, that person will have eternal life.
17. God did not send His Son into the world to judge it. God sent Jesus, so that the people of the world could be saved through him.
18. The person who commits himself to Jesus is not condemned, but the one who does not commit himself to Jesus has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's only Son.
19. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness more than they loved light because the things which they were doing were evil.
20. Everyone who does evil hates the light. He does not come toward the light. He doesn't want his evil deeds to be exposed.
21. But the person who is living the truth comes toward the light. He wants his actions to become clear, because he did them for God.
22. After this, Jesus and his followers went to the land of Judea. He stayed there with them and he was immersing some people.
23. John was immersing people in the town of Aenon (which is not far from the town of Salim) because there was plenty of water there. People continued coming to be immersed.
24. (John had not yet been thrown into prison.)
25. There was an argument between some of John's followers and a Jewish man about making things pure.
26. They came to John and said to him, ``Rabbi, the man you have endorsed, who was with you on the other side of the Jordan River, look, he is immersing people, too. Everyone is coming to him!''
27. John answered, ``No one can receive anything if heaven has not given it to him.
28. You yourselves know that I told the truth when I said, `I am not the Messiah!' I have been sent ahead of him.
29. The groom is the one who will get the bride. The best man is the one who stands by and listens. He is glad when he hears the groom's voice. This is my joy; it is now complete.
30. Jesus must become more important; I will become less important.''
31. The one who comes from above is greater than all things. The person who comes from the earth belongs to the earth and talks about the earth. The one who comes from heaven is the most important.
32. He tells the truth about what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his proof.
33. The person who does accept his proof confirms that God is real.
34. God sent Jesus. Jesus speaks the words of God, because God gave him the Spirit without limit.
35. The Father loves the Son and has put everything in the Son's control.
36. The person who commits himself to the Son has eternal life, but the person who does not obey the Son will not see eternal life. Instead, God's punishment stays on that person.

Got Jesus?

[ December 23, 2004, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Archeryaddict ]

 

Oh, yeah, I got Jesus. I just don't get some of His followers sometimes...

Hank, thanks for your empathy. This is a major interpretative issue with which I am deeply struggling right now, so would appreciate your prayers. I am profoundly troubled in my spirit about these passages.

Bro. James - same question to you as I raised earlier: so newborn children deserve to die in the name of God, do they? I have a child who is about to be born; are you saying that if s/he had the misfortune to be born in Canaan 3000 years ago to the wrong tribe, it would be right and proper for my child to be killed in the name of God?

Marcia, with respect, you ARE interpreting the Bible; your interpretation is the fundamentalist, literalist ('plain' in your words) interpretation, mine is the more allegorical. I have thrown nothing out of the OT, I and many others merely interpret it differently, and I happen to think that that interpretation is more consistent with the rest of Scripture and in particular the Gospels' revelation of Jesus, God-Love Incarnate. Now, if you like, we can sit around and hurl 'labels' at each other - 'liberal', 'neo-orthodox', 'post-evangelical' and 'fundamentalist', 'legalist' 'literalist' etc - but that achieves little except to raise our blood pressures and contributes nothing to the discussion.

Jim, so God is IFB is He?



Yours in Christ

Matt

 

FWIW, and for the record, here's my present take on what inerrancy means to me.

My belief is that the Scriptures, including the Psalms, were written by people who were inspired by God to write them, and are therefore inerrant.

While God inspires many people, to the point that virtually nothing is written without some kind of inspiration from Him, the inspiration of the Scriptures is in a class by itself. The Scriptures are Divine Revelation, meaning that every word is directly from God.

The Scriptures are therefore God Himself speaking to the human race, despite the fact that they were written by people who used terms and concepts that made sense to them, and despite the fact that the literal accuracy of Scripture is not what we would consider to be literal accuracy.

I would not consider the Bible to be very factually accurate. Nor would I consider all of it to be literally true. For example, the first 11 chapters are, I think, ancient myths - which in no way detracts from them being the Word of God.

The inerrancy of the Bible resides in the spiritual truth that it contains, which it communicates to people who understand it. While many individual statements are literally untrue in theological terms, such as that God is jealous and angry, these statements nevertheless convey a part of an overall truth - which can be understood when the Bible is considered as a whole.

Even its most immoral aspects, such as God ordering the annihilation of whole cities, or the Psalmist praying for Babylonian children to be dashed on the rocks, essentially communicate fundamental truths.

For example, the annihilation of so-called "wicked" cities communicates the power of God and the danger of opposing Him. Dashing even small children on the rocks means that even the smallest and most apparently harmless of evils are to be removed from your life. Literally, however, these actions and desires on the part of the Israelites were wicked to the extreme.

The purpose of the Bible is to lift the human race out of evil and lead them towards heaven. It can do this very effectively if it is understood and loved. However, since the human race has been, and in many ways still is, in a quite primitive and uncomprehending spiritual level, the imagery and examples of the Bible are often drawn out of and speak to those states. The Israelites were not good people, at least as they are portrayed in Scripture, but they could be used by God to teach eternal truths and to represent the path that every imperfect ordinary person can follow to heaven.

Inerrancy as promulgated by fundamentalists OTOH always strikes me as rather a defensive position. Surely there are more positive things we can say about the Bible than that "it has no errors". The same could be true of the phone directory, but it wouldn't make me read it. I'd rather talk about the Bible's trustworthiness and its revelatory and transformative power.

The biggest problem I have with the concept of Biblical inerrancy as commonly defined by fundamentalism is that those who accept it generally take it to mean that it is inerrant in historical and scientific fact - thus they take Genesis literally for example, which I think does harm to the intention of the authors and of God in inspiring them and completely misses the point of the creation stories. Certainly the Bible was not written as a scientific text book and expecting it to be so leads to all sorts of problem. As to historical accuracy that seems to ignore historiography and our understanding of historical sources. However, the lack of scientific and historical 'inerrancy' does not bother me. That's not what it is about. To me the Bible is the record of God's self-revelation, His teaching the Jews about himself which prepared the way for the incarnation. Maybe I could call it inerrant in the sense that I believe the Bible to be what God wants us to have - but that is an interpretation very far removed what it is generally used and I think using that to enable me to sign a SoF or some such thing would not be entirely honest.

Well, I could go on and on. But that is my basic view of biblical inerrancy.

Yours in Christ

Matt