Tongues as Evidence

[Lorelei]

Eagle,

I have been enjoying a great discussion with ONENESS and MEE for awhile now and I respect them both. I wouldn't be so quick to judge an attitude by the text written here, it really is hard to read feelings. If you would like to discuss this then great, but please, but let's not resort to name calling and let us dig into the Word of God.

ONENESS,

You don't need to apologize to me about time. I am just amazed at how much time I have had to post here today!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
Well looks like I have something to study today. What can I use to see the Orginal text? Is there anything on the internet?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes! An interlinear Bible will show you the KJV text (or whatever version you get) along side the original texts. The one I go to on the net allows you to click on the word that is in the original text and then you get a pop up window with what the true definition of that word is. Believe me, I was amazed that the word unknown was not there. I have since found a lot of things that have amazed me as I have studied more. I am no expert though, but I compare my interlinear NIV to the KJV one on the net and then get out my strongs concordance to see what the words mean. Anyway...here is the link to the site that I use http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/

Enter the exact verse in the "search for" box and see the results. It is great. You might have to download certain fonts to be able to see the greek text. I don't remember how I did that now.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

Now.... How do you know that they Received the Holy Ghost? Will you answer that for me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the Word of God told me they did. As I quoted "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit". It is what tells us they spoke in tongues, I didn't "hear" that myself.

I would really rather wait to answer your other comments until you answer the other question I asked.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 12
4
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.

7
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

8
To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10
to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[1] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[2]
11
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

28
And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't this chapter tell us that not everyone will speak in tongues? (Please read the whole chapter for context, just trying to save space)

~Lorelei

 

[Don]

Brian, I'm assuming from your last post that you missed my post about the conjunction "and"?

 

[LadyEagle]

Lorelei: Funny how you knew my last post was directed to you since I didn't mention any names. At the point I jumped into this discussion, it seems I said I wasn't going to get into a lot of theological rhetoric, or something to that effect. Only tell of my experiences on this subject.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by EagleLives911:
From my experiences, some speaking in tongues is fake. Some healing services are fake. Some may be staged. Some are not. The gift of healing and the gift of speaking in tongues are gifts.
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They are gifts, but I have yet to find anyone using them according to the guidelines laid out in the scriptures. Either way, this topic is about whether this gift is the "evidence" of having the Holy Spirit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you should broaden your horizens and you will find Christians who use these gifts according to the guidelines laid out in the scriptures. Have you ever been to a full Gospel service? Please don't knock what you haven't experienced.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by EagleLives911:

Perhaps some believers need the gift of speaking in tongues to draw them closer to the Lord or keep them closer to the Lord.
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That isn't Biblical. We need the Spirit itself, not gifts given by the Spirit. That isn't faith. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did I say we DIDN'T need the Spirit Himself? No.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

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Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
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[/QB]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by EagleLives911:

But when we get glorified bodies, perhaps we will all speak in an unknown tongue, or perhaps it will be Hebrew.
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There is no unknown tongue. That word was added in the KJV translation but was not in the original texts. The word is tongue, plain and simple. No tongue in the Bible was "unknown".

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My comment was meant to be facetious. Sorry I didn't use the proper message icon.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by EagleLives911:
I have heard of things happening overseas, miracles, etc., that would never be accepted as factual or reality by some Christians in America. Wonderful and marvelous things are happening just in the distribution of the Jesus Film Project, alone, as well as in other areas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are they Biblical? We are told that many will do many "wonderful works" in Christ's name but he will tell them to depart, for they are not one of His. (Matt. 7:21-23)

Are you sure these people don't fit this description?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I wonder, do you even know anything about the Jesus Film Project? How many MILLIONS of people around the globe are being led to Jesus Christ as a result of the Jesus Film Project? How many souls have you led to Him lately?

Next, I suppose you will say anyone who raises their hands during worship to the Lord is just showing off.

I have heard all of these same old arguments/comments/debates/Scripture references & so-called proofs against the gift of tongues and being filled with the Holy Spirit since way back in the early 1970s. I don't think any new Scriptures have been added since then, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong, which I'm sure you will.

Please, don't condemn what you have not experienced. It makes you sound self-righteous.

As you pointed out, since this is a three-way discussion that has been going on for a long time, and since I refuse to get into picking and choosing certain Scriptures to prove my position is the only correct, true, glorious one, I'm outta here. I will leave this discussion to the authority on this board. And keep on experiencing my walk with the Lord until He calls me home.

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Lorelei: Funny how you knew my last post was directed to you since I didn't mention any names. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I didn't. I just didn't like the negativity of the post. We may disagree, but that doesn't mean that either of us are narrow minded. I have written many posts cautioning poeople against trying to read attitudes into posts. See, I just write what I have to say, and I very seldom think about how it "comes across". If it came across self righteous I apologize. This is a discussion however, and I do believe the Bible supports my beliefs. That doesn't come from the way I was raised or a self righteous attitude, it comes from years of studing what the Word has to say on the subject. Believe it or not, I used to think differently, until I read the Word more thoroughly.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:

At the point I jumped into this discussion, it seems I said I wasn't going to get into a lot of theological rhetoric, or something to that effect. Only tell of my experiences on this subject.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is great to share of your experiences, but if you don't back them up biblically then why must I believe you? As I mentioned to someone else, the Bereans examined the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true. I am just doing the same. Paul didn't tell them to stop, that they should just listen to his experiences. They were called "noble" for doing so and it was an important enough observation for it to be written about in the book of Acts.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
I wonder, do you even know anything about the Jesus Film Project? How many MILLIONS of people around the globe are being led to Jesus Christ as a result of the Jesus Film Project? How many souls have you led to Him lately?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I don't. Why don't you share with me what it is. I assume then you are deeply involved in this movement and have brought many souls to Christ yourself through this project?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:

Next, I suppose you will say anyone who raises their hands during worship to the Lord is just showing off. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I would have to change churches for my pastor sometimes does this and he is not a show off, but a man of God. What does raising hands have to do with speaking in tongues? Nothing, you are just trying to assume that I am against everything pentecostals do because I question whether their gift of tongues is biblical. I am not against "Pentecostals" and I am not out to get everyone that worships differently then I do. I only come here speaking against things that are taught as truth but are not biblical. If MEE and ONENESS hadn't kept saying that tongues were the evidence of the Holy SPirit then this thread wouldn't be here. But they kept saying it as a "fact" so I just challenged them to prove it biblically and they have yet to do so. We have heard of many wonderful "experiences" but not the scriptures to back it up.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
I have heard all of these same old arguments/comments/debates/Scripture references & so-called proofs against the gift of tongues and being filled with the Holy Spirit since way back in the early 1970s. I don't think any new Scriptures have been added since then, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong, which I'm sure you will.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the Bible didn't even change in the late 1800s when this speaking of tongues as the evidence and second baptism began to circulate as truth.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Please, don't condemn what you have not experienced. It makes you sound self-righteous. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So I must experience fornication, homosexuality, adultery, murder, slandering etc before I can condemn them????

Just because I have not experienced these things doesn't mean I don't know that they are wrong. The Bible speaks out against them and it speaks out against false prophets, false gospels and false apostles.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
As you pointed out, since this is a three-way discussion that has been going on for a long time, and since I refuse to get into picking and choosing certain Scriptures to prove my position is the only correct, true, glorious one, I'm outta here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the thread was closed and this was just opened to "tie up some loose ends". I didn't mean to not include you, but I wonder why you are so opposed to finding scriptures to back up your experience.

Read the book of Acts, read the entire Bible for that matter and find me one verse, just one where Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, Or the Lord himself said 'don't worry about what the scriptures say, your experience proves that is of God. You don't need the Word of God to prove it is right'.

I, for one, am glad that Jesus himself used the scriptures to teach, to challenge and to prove that He was who he said He was. I do not think he would be so upset with me wanting to do what he chastised so many for not doing. Have you never read in the Scriptures he asked them. I have.

~Lorelei

 

[LadyEagle]

Lorelei: Learn something...instead of attacking what doesn't fit in with your personal beliefs/interpretations of Scripture...There are MILLIONS of people around the Globe who believe & practice the following....

Do Christians receive the Holy Spirit when they are saved? If so, how is this experience different from the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

Yes, when persons accept Christ, the Holy Spirit begins a great work in their lives. The Spirit convicts them of sin, convinces them of righteousness, and dwells within them (John 6:44; 14:17; Roman 8:9; 1 Corinthians 12:13). No one becomes a Christian without this gracious work of the Holy Spirit.

However, there is an additional and distinct ministry of the Holy Spirit called the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Baptism is an empowering gift from God the Father that is promised to every believer (Matthew 3:11; Luke 11:13; 24:49; Acts 2:33, 38). It helps the Christian to live a holy life and also brings a new devotional attachment to Jesus Christ, making Him very real and precious. The primary pupose of the Baptism is to give greater power for witnessing (Acts 1:8). Other benefits include a greater joy in spiritual service, and a heightened sense of one's mission to the world.


Can a person receive eternal life in heaven without the baptism in the Holy Spirit? If so, why should we be baptized in the Spirit?

Receiving eternal life does not depend on being baptized in the Holy Spirit; for salvation is by grace through faith alone (Habakkuk 2:4; John 6:28, 29; Galatians 3:6; 5:6; Ephesians 2:8). It is a gift purchased for us by Christ when He was crucified. All we have to do is accept the gift. Just as the repentant thief on the cross next to Jesus was assured of entering paradise that very day we too are assured a place in heaven with the Father if we believe in Jesus Christ. It is most unfortunate that some have said, "Unless you have spoken in tongues you will not go to heaven." This is not true. It is contrary to the Scriptures.

At the same time, although the Bible does not say the baptism in the Spirit is required for salvation, it does tell us that Christ commanded His first followers to wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon them (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8). The Bible commands us to "be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18). This personal encounter with the Holy Spirit should be sought and cherished by every believer. With it comes a new and fuller dimension of spiritual understanding and a flow of spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 2:9-13).

What is the difference between "speaking in tongues" when one is baptized in the Spirit and "speaking in tongues" publicly? Also, what is the advantage of "praying in tongues" in one's private prayer life?

There are at least four uses or purposes of unknown tongues, according to the New Testament: (1) as the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6); (2) as a gift to edify the church when the tongues are interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10); (3) as a sign for unbelievers that they might believe (1 Corinthians 14:22); and (4) as a God-given provision for effective prayer and praise (1 Corinthians 14:2, 14). In all these cases, tongues is the same in essence, but different in purpose. The misunderstanding concerning these distinctive uses and purposes has brought great confusion among Christians.

Scripture records that the early believers, upon being baptized in the Spirit, began to glorify God in languages unknown to them but imparted by the Holy Spirit. Tongues is the same evidence today when believers are baptized in the Spirit. All believers, when they are baptized in the Spirit, will speak in tongues. However, not all will exercise the spiritual gift of tongues in the church assembled for worship. All will have the evidence, but not all will exercise the public gift of tongues which requires the additional operation of the gift of interpretation of tongues (1 Corinthians 14:12,13). First in a public worship service someone is moved to speak in tongues; then someone is moved by the Spirit to give an interpretation of the utterance. Operating in this realm, the Spirit provides an effective and powerful means of corporate adoration and worship of God. The purpose of the gifts of tongues and interpretation is to edify or build up the church (1 Corinthians 14:2-12).

Praying in tongues during private devotions is an additional ministry of the Holy Spirit. Many believers today testify that praying in tongues greatly enriches their spiritual lives. The limitations of intellect are overcome as the Holy Spirit quickens the human spirit in glorious expressions of worship and adoration. The quandary of limited vocabulary and the inability to express feelings and concerns of the soul disappear as a Spirit-imparted language flows out from the heart. It is as if heaven and earth, time and eternity, God and man all compress together in a glorious act of worship.

http://www.ag.org/top/beliefs/baptism_hs/baptmhs_00_questions.cfm

 

[ONENESS]

Ok i have been really swamped today and yesterday with work. Don i Did read your post just have had a lack of time. Sorry

Hey Lorelie thanks for the addy i will be sure to check it out when I have time. I also wanted to ask you guys another question.

Do you guys ever fast? Im not going to start a discussion on that but I was just curious if you guys would like to join me on a fast one day and join together in prayer about the discussion. And maybe God will both help us see something? Does that sound like an idea?

But anyway. Eagle, At first I really did not know Don and Lorelie that well, but after a few harsh debates I have come to the point to respect them and try and understand where they are comeing from. Yea the points may seem harsh, but our feeling are still in love. We are pretty good discussion buddies not. Maybe we will get frustrated but Thats only care.

God Bless

 

[LadyEagle]

My, oh my..

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Please, don't condemn what you have not experienced. It makes you sound self-righteous.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I must experience fornication, homosexuality, adultery, murder, slandering etc before I can condemn them????

Just because I have not experienced these things doesn't mean I don't know that they are wrong. The Bible speaks out against them and it speaks out against false prophets, false gospels and false apostles. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Talk about misconstruing a post and a broad twisted interpretation out of context! I thought the discussion was about speaking in tongues, not fornication, adultery, murder, etc. Guess I missed something....

About the Jesus Film Project...a non-Baptist project. Yes, my family supports this:
http://www.jesusfilm.org


Before you attack the above cut & paste post of mine..that was taken from the AG page, so if you have an argument or dissection, it is with the entire denomination not me. But just figured that would really get you going.



Like I said, before, (regarding Baptism in the Holy Spirit or speaking in tongues), and by the way, raising hands in worship IS connected..., (please refer to the AG link for best explanation), please don't condemn what you have not experienced regarding all of this (not fornication, murder, adultery, etc.), it makes you sound self-righteous.

Don't we need to be careful not to grieve the Holy Spirit when we make accusations of false prophets or false apostles?

Won't it be a surprise when there will be believers of all denominations in heaven...even Catholics. Yes, Virginia, it is possible to be a Catholic and still be saved. But that is another discussion.

I am 52 years old and a veteran Christian, having studied and searched the Scriptures for myself on many, many topics, having experienced my own personal walk with Jesus Christ for many years, and in a variety of circumstances, having met a variety of different people, Christians of all different denominations, and even stared death in the face several times in my life. I really don't think there is anything you can post about tongues or Baptism of the Holy Spirit that is going to bring me around to your point of view or your interpretation of Scriptures.

I have posted what I meant to say, now please don't twist this around to mean something different than what I have just posted. Go ahead, cut me to ribbons all you want, I might survive! I Cor. 13. Selah.

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
Do you guys ever fast? Im not going to start a discussion on that but I was just curious if you guys would like to join me on a fast one day and join together in prayer about the discussion. And maybe God will both help us see something? Does that sound like an idea? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never fasted but it is something I have really been interested in doing. I just am not sure where to find out "how" to fast. I know in the NT it says to do so, but I dont' know where in the OT the "guidelines" are so to speak. In an nutshell, I don't know how to fast except to just not eat and spend more time in prayer???? We should get a thread going on this, I would love it!

Also, I know you are busy, but could you please answer the question about 1 Corinthians 12?

Thanks, I will look forward to a study on fasting and putting it into practice!!

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Lorelei: Learn something...instead of attacking what doesn't fit in with your personal beliefs/interpretations of Scripture...There are MILLIONS of people around the Globe who believe & practice the following....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Learn something...instead of attacking what what doesn't fit in with your personal beliefs/interpretations of Scripture....find out what the scripture really says.

I don't care what millions of people practice, I care about what the Word of God teaches us. If that practice is indeed grounded in scripture, then AMEN, I will welcome it with open arms.

Learn something...instead of attacking me, why not discuss things civilly?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Do Christians receive the Holy Spirit when they are saved? If so, how is this experience different from the baptism in the Holy Spirit?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes they do for without the Spirit you can't be saved. (Rom 8:9) We are baptized the moment we receive the Spirit, the moment we are saved. The only reason it was "different" in Acts was that is it was God's initial sending of His Spirit. We know from many statements by Christ in the book of John that the Spirit could not be sent while he was still here. Now that the Spirit indwells men of all kinds, there is no need to wait for a second blessing. God gives us all that we need the moment we believe on Him. Peter used the keys to unlock the door, it was never again locked, but remains open forever more.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Yes, when persons accept Christ, the Holy Spirit begins a great work in their lives.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Romans 8:9 "And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

I used to think this way too. SOme were saved but not all had "been baptized with the Spirit". Then I began to read the Word and saw that without the Spirit there is no salvation. You can't "accept Christ" and not receive the Spirit.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
The Spirit convicts them of sin, convinces them of righteousness, and dwells within them (John 6:44; 14:17; Roman 8:9; 1 Corinthians 12:13). No one becomes a Christian without this gracious work of the Holy Spirit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen, so the moment you saved you have the Spirit of God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
However, there is an additional and distinct ministry of the Holy Spirit called the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Baptism is an empowering gift from God the Father that is promised to every believer (Matthew 3:11; Luke 11:13; 24:49; Acts 2:33, 38). It helps the Christian to live a holy life and also brings a new devotional attachment to Jesus Christ, making Him very real and precious. The primary pupose of the Baptism is to give greater power for witnessing (Acts 1:8). Other benefits include a greater joy in spiritual service, and a heightened sense of one's mission to the world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed it was promised and it was received. You have it already when you are saved. Renewing your walk, "walking in the Spirit" is not the "Baptism". Once you have it, it's there. Your scriptures tell of His promise of the Spirit, which you already admit we have. Your scriptures do not support a "second" baptism. It was promised later to those at that time because Jesus had to be glorified before he could send it. He has been glorified, His Spirit is now here, I have all that I need. (John 7:37,38)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Can a person receive eternal life in heaven without the baptism in the Holy Spirit? If so, why should we be baptized in the Spirit?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, without the Spirit you are not saved. We are baptized with the Spirit upon salvation. Otherwise, as you said, there would be no eternal life from salvation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:

Receiving eternal life does not depend on being baptized in the Holy Spirit; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't have eternal life without the Spirit. After the Spirit was sent to all of mankind, there is never an instance of "Spirit Baptism" apart from belief. We are to renew are walk and be "filled" from day to day, but we already have all that we need. He never tells us he will give us "part of His Spirit" now and part later. We have it all.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:

for salvation is by grace through faith alone (Habakkuk 2:4; John 6:28, 29; Galatians 3:6; 5:6; Ephesians 2:8).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and as we place our faith in Him he seals that salvation with His Spirit. (Eph 1:13-14)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
It is a gift purchased for us by Christ when He was crucified. All we have to do is accept the gift. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the gift of the Holy Ghost that Peter preached was promised to those who believed. The gift of the Holy Ghost is given to all who accept that gift. It, as I mentioned in Ephesians, says that the Spirit is what seals that promise.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
It is most unfortunate that some have said, "Unless you have spoken in tongues you will not go to heaven." This is not true. It is contrary to the Scriptures.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We agree on one thing at least

.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:

At the same time, although the Bible does not say the baptism in the Spirit is required for salvation, it does tell us that Christ commanded His first followers to wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon them (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only those who were alive in the time of the transition from the law to grace had to wait. The door was still locked. But after Christ's ministry was done and after Peter was used to open that door, it remains open. The apostles were told to wait, the apostles told us to receive it now! If we would believe, then we would receive that gift.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:

The Bible commands us to "be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18). This personal encounter with the Holy Spirit should be sought and cherished by every believer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YOu already admitted we are filled with the SPirit when we are saved. "The Spirit convicts them of sin, convinces them of righteousness, and dwells within them". Yes we must all renew that walk, choose to allow the Spirit to lead us, but that isn't baptism.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
What is the difference between "speaking in tongues" when one is baptized in the Spirit and "speaking in tongues" publicly? Also, what is the advantage of "praying in tongues" in one's private prayer life?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no difference. Tongues are a gift of the Holy SPirit that not everyone will speak. They were a gift used a sign to the unbelieving Jews to know that this was indeed what Joel Prophesied about.

I can't tell you the advantage of praying in tongues in one's private life because the Bible never addresses it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
There are at least four uses or purposes of unknown tongues, according to the New Testament: (1) as the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6); <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about Acts Acts 2:38-47; Acts 8:26-40; Acts 9:17-19; Acts 16:13-15; Acts 16:29-34? They didn't speak in tongues as the evidence?


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
(2) as a gift to edify the church when the tongues are interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10); <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHere does it mention the gift for self edification?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
(3) as a sign for unbelievers that they might believe (1 Corinthians 14:22); <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is still talking about the "gift" mentioned in Chapter 12.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
and (4) as a God-given provision for effective prayer and praise (1 Corinthians 14:2, 14)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This chapter tell us how this is not effective.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
In all these cases, tongues is the same in essence, but different in purpose. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the same tongue. I agree that God will use the Gift according to His Purpose.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
The misunderstanding concerning these distinctive uses and purposes has brought great confusion among Christians. [?Quote]

By trying to make each use and purpose "distinct" is what causes the confusion. There is never a mention of tongues as anything other then a "gift".

Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Scripture records that the early believers, upon being baptized in the Spirit, began to glorify God in languages unknown to them but imparted by the Holy Spirit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only some of the early believers experienced this and it was usually explained as to what it meant. The language was unknown to the apostles, but those who heard them knew what they said.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Tongues is the same evidence today when believers are baptized in the Spirit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, 1 Corinthians 12 says we will not all have the same gift and you have to prove to me that tongues that were spoken, were not the "gift" of tongues.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
All believers, when they are baptized in the Spirit, will speak in tongues. However, not all will exercise the spiritual gift of tongues in the church assembled for worship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no difference.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
All will have the evidence, but not all will exercise the public gift of tongues which requires the additional operation of the gift of interpretation of tongues (1 Corinthians 14:12,13).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not everyone who was baptized with the Spirit in Acts spoke in tongues. No where does the BIble tell us the "evidence" is different then the "gift". In fact we are told the manifestation of the Spirit is given as God wants it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
First in a public worship service someone is moved to speak in tongues; then someone is moved by the Spirit to give an interpretation of the utterance. Operating in this realm, the Spirit provides an effective and powerful means of corporate adoration and worship of God. The purpose of the gifts of tongues and interpretation is to edify or build up the church (1 Corinthians 14:2-12).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only men correct?


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Praying in tongues during private devotions is an additional ministry of the Holy Spirit. Many believers today testify that praying in tongues greatly enriches their spiritual lives. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it so greatly enriches the walk, why doesn't the Bible direct us to do this. Instead it directs us to excell in gifts that uplift the church, not ourselves.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
The limitations of intellect are overcome as the Holy Spirit quickens the human spirit in glorious expressions of worship and adoration. The quandary of limited vocabulary and the inability to express feelings and concerns of the soul disappear as a Spirit-imparted language flows out from the heart. It is as if heaven and earth, time and eternity, God and man all compress together in a glorious act of worship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds pretty, but it's not biblical

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
My, oh my..
Talk about misconstruing a post and a broad twisted interpretation out of context! I thought the discussion was about speaking in tongues, not fornication, adultery, murder, etc. Guess I missed something....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed you were not talking about these things. But you were saying "Please, don't condemn what you have not experienced"

I was making a point. I condemn adultery, but I have not commited adultery, I condemn murder, but I have not experienced it. I don't have to experience these things to condemn them, correct?

There is no difference to me. I am condemning a doctrine that contradicts the 12th Chapter of 1 Corinthians. I don't have to "experience" that contradiction to do so.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
About the Jesus Film Project...a non-Baptist project. Yes, my family supports this:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You personally go and lead people to Christ, or just financially and prayerfully support it? Since you seemed to think the number of people I have led to Christ is so important in comparing me to this project, I just wonder how many souls you personally have led to Christ through this project. Not how you "support" it, but how you win souls. It seemed important for you to point that out to me.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Before you attack the above cut & paste post of mine..that was taken from the AG page, so if you have an argument or dissection, it is with the entire denomination not me. But just figured that would really get you going.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't visited the link, but will try to do so soon. I am not sure what post you are talking about.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Like I said, before, (regarding Baptism in the Holy Spirit or speaking in tongues), and by the way, raising hands in worship IS connected..., (please refer to the AG link for best explanation), please don't condemn what you have not experienced regarding all of this (not fornication, murder, adultery, etc.), it makes you sound self-righteous. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And by saying because you have "experienced" it you don't have to support it biblically sounds self righteous to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Don't we need to be careful not to grieve the Holy Spirit when we make accusations of false prophets or false apostles?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul was greived how easily we were led astray and didn't "Test" these false beliefs.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/QB]


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Won't it be a surprise when there will be believers of all denominations in heaven...even Catholics. Yes, Virginia, it is possible to be a Catholic and still be saved. But that is another discussion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Won't be a shock to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
I have posted what I meant to say, now please don't twist this around to mean something different than what I have just posted. Go ahead, cut me to ribbons all you want, I might survive! I Cor. 13. Selah.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


As you are doing to me? It's funny, you call me many names (Like a Spirit filled person would resort to name calling) and then tell me how I am mis-interpreting you? Could you please loose the sarcasm and open yourself up to studying God's Word? I may not be able to say one thing to change your mind, but the Word of God is waiting for you to explore it, if only you let the Truth be heard.

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ONENESS:
Do you guys ever fast? Im not going to start a discussion on that but I was just curious if you guys would like to join me on a fast one day and join together in prayer about the discussion. And maybe God will both help us see something? Does that sound like an idea?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never fasted but it is something I have really been interested in doing. I just am not sure where to find out "how" to fast. I know in the NT it says to do so, but I dont' know where in the OT the "guidelines" are so to speak. In an nutshell, I don't know how to fast except to just not eat and spend more time in prayer???? We should get a thread going on this, I would love it!

Also, I know you are busy, but could you please answer the question about 1 Corinthians 12?

Thanks, I will look forward to a study on fasting and putting it into practice!!

~Lorelei

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks like I will try my best to start a thread on the Subject.

But you are right. Fasting is substaining from food or from anything that would support your flesh in order to feed your Spirit.

An old Indian once said someone "It's like I have two dogs fighting inside of me" And the man asked and said " Well... Which one wins" and The Indian says "The one That I feed the Most"

And the same is with us. We have two things fighting in us, our flesh and hour spirit. So which one is going to win? Easy! The one that we feed the most.

I will try to list alot more on the topic tonight, but it is really a hard sacrifice to do. You have to be committed to your fast in order not to break it. You will find that if you substain from food it is really hard to go a day or two but after that its easy.

But i will do more commenting tongiht on the 12th chapter.

God Bless

 

[LadyEagle]

Lorelei: What are you trying to prove?

You have wasted a lot of time cutting and pasting about what you assumed were my words and arguing (even though I told you, they were cut and pasted right out of the AG website).

Go back and check through all the messages on this topic. From your first post cutting & pasting anything to do with Eagle Lives, you attacked me in a most self-righteous, superior way, trying to prove what I posted was wrong and you were right. What are you so angry about?

My Dear, if you check back, I didn't even mention your name the first time I responded.

When I first jumped in here, I was under the impression there were people on here really searching for answers. My words have been twisted around for the sake of argument, and meanings misconstrued to argue about. Why?

Well, now I realize this is just a forum for you to prove you are right and everyone else is wrong. Gee, I certainly don't feel edified. In fact, I am starting to feel offended by these little power games. Obviously there are some underlying issues here that have nothing to do with the topic.

I am shaking the dust off my feet from this topic and moving on. I will not strive with you. Blessed is the peacemaker. Lighten up. Oh, by the way, check out that beam before you pick at a perceived splinter.

 

[Lorelei]

Eagle,

I don't know what else to say. You accusing me of doing what you yourself keep doing to me. You misconstrue all my statements, assume attitudes that aren't existant and continue to insist that I am self righteous and out to prove myself right.

You say something as if it is truth, whether in your own words or someone else's and I will continue to challenge you to prove it Biblically.

If that bothers you then you might want to find another message board that allows you to preach false doctrines as truth. I won't stand idly by and watch it happen.

That isn't self righteous, that is what we are instructed to do. (2 Timothy 2:24-26; 3:10-4:5)


~Lorelei

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[Don]

Hey, Brian: I heard the same story, but it was with some jungle tribe chieftan. When he asked the missionary which dog will win, the missionary told him, "Whichever one you tell 'sic 'em' to!"

Eagle, Lorelei, you'll pardon me, but your posts have gotten rather...long. I'm just skimming through at the moment, and am reminded of what I posted at the top of page 5 (I think) (note: Nope, it was towards the bottom of page 4): "Circles."

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Before you attack the above cut & paste post of mine..that was taken from the AG page, so if you have an argument or dissection, it is with the entire denomination not me. But just figured that would really get you going.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All throughout your post you have said stuff like this? Where are you getting it. No one has tryed to attack what you have wrote. They are doing the same thing you are doing are they not? No one is attacking you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Before you attack the above cut & paste post of mine..that was taken from the AG page, so if you have an argument or dissection, it is with the entire denomination not me. But just figured that would really get you going.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All throughout your post you have said stuff like this? Where are you getting it. No one has tryed to attack what you have wrote. They are doing the same thing you are doing are they not? No one is attacking you.

That does not sound to nice itself

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> When I first jumped in here, I was under the impression there were people on here really searching for answers. My words have been twisted around for the sake of argument, and meanings misconstrued to argue about. Why?

Well, now I realize this is just a forum for you to prove you are right and everyone else is wrong. Gee, I certainly don't feel edified. In fact, I am starting to feel offended by these little power games. Obviously there are some underlying issues here that have nothing to do with the topic.

I am shaking the dust off my feet from this topic and moving on. I will not strive with you. Blessed is the peacemaker. Lighten up. Oh, by the way, check out that beam before you pick at a perceived splinter.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

seems to me you are the one that wanted to come in here and prove everyone else wrong. Seeing you dont want to stick around to finish the discussion with Us. Dont take it the wrong way, I know how you feel there eagle. Dont give up, just keep on trying.

We love you man.

 

[MEE]

ONENESS writes:
seems to me you are the one that wanted to come in here and prove everyone else wrong. Seeing you dont want to stick around to finish the discussion with Us. Dont take it the wrong way, I know how you feel there eagle. Dont give up, just keep on trying.

We love you man.


Gee ONENESS, I thought Eagle was a woman. Maybe I'm wrong.

MEE

 

[kwob02]

Mark 16:17-18 (NRSV)
"And these signs will accompany those who believe; by using my name they will cast out demons, they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes in their hands and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Just a curious question, but doesn't this passage say that all believers will speak in tongues as a sign of their belief in Christ?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

See the first 5 pages.

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Gee ONENESS, I thought Eagle was a woman. Maybe I'm wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now you got me curious, I have no idea. I got the impression Eagle was a he. But maybe he could be a she. Or what if She is a he? LOL.

Im puzzled.

I only have two brian cells left and one of those are lost and the other went searching for it. So I am pretty much out of luck.

God, bless i will comment on the topic tomorrow if i have time. Man i have been getting slack. Sorry i just got really busy at work too.

 

[Lorelei]

ONENESS,

Again, no need to apologize, I know you will answer the question someday!!

Oh and thanks for sticking up for me too!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kwob02:
Just a curious question, but doesn't this passage say that all believers will speak in tongues as a sign of their belief in Christ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If it says that everyone will speak in tongues then it says that everyone will pick up snakes and eat poisons too. It would also directly contradict 1 Corinthians chapter 12 that tells us that we all don't have the same gifts.

~Lorelei