Tongues as the evidence of the Holy Spirit is not Biblical

[susanpet]

I have never spoken in tongues and have never desired to do so. The reason I suppose is that of the people I know who do act so self-righteous. ( I'm not talking about you, Oneness.) I know this from my personal experience. And I don't find that to be a very attractive trait, to look down your nose at other christians who don't have this gift. It's God's business who He wants to give this gift to, right?
Susan

 

[ONENESS]

Ok DHK, Don, and whoever else there is that want to reply.

You say that you guys are in the body of CHrist and that you are the true church that the bible talks about. And I agree with you I believe that you are.

Does it make since for me to say that in order to have any of the Gifts of the Holy GHostyou Must have the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. So in other words, without the gift of the Spirit there are no GIfts.

Here are the gifts:
1:Words of Wisdom
2:The word of Knowledge
3:Faith
4:Healing
5:Working of Miricles
6rophecy
7:discerning of spirits
8:divers kinds of tongues
9:interpretation of tongues

Here are the signs that Follow:
1:casting out devils
2:speaking with new tongues
3:drinking of deadly things will not harm you
4:Takeing up serpents
5:laying hands on the sick and them recovering.

Now all I want to know who in your church have these signs following them. Who in your church is prophesying. Who in your church is casting out devils, Who in your church is laying their hands on the sick and the sick recovering. Who in your church is speaking in tongues and who is interpreting what is being said.

So if The Holy Spirit is there all of these things should be takeing place.

So if you cant tell me than I will have to disagree with you. And move on and find another church where these signs are following. B/C where the Spirit of God is these things will be takeing place.

So One more time I ask who in your church has the Holy Ghost. I would like to talk to them about their experience.

 

[susanpet]

Oneness,you asked if any one in our churches have the Holy Ghost. They most certainly do!!Speaking in tongues is not the only evidence of the Holy Ghost. When you are saved you get the Holy Ghost at that moment. Do you base your whole religion on the fact that you can speak in tongues? There's so much more to it than that. We are told to edify the church and build each other up. We are supposed to witness to the lost and spread the Good News that Jesus can save. And no one can do this without the Holy Ghost, right? And I've seen too much evidence of the Lord's work in our church to ever doubt that we don't have the Spirit! Be careful what you say about something you evidently don't know a whole lot about.
We are told that we know we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren. Again I can't judge you, only God can do that. We should all be praying for one another instead of fussing And don't judge us, for we are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Oneness,you asked if any one in our churches have the Holy Ghost. They most certainly do!!Speaking in tongues is not the only evidence of the Holy Ghost. When you are saved you get the Holy Ghost at that moment. Do you base your whole religion on the fact that you can speak in tongues? There's so much more to it than that. We are told to edify the church and build each other up. We are supposed to witness to the lost and spread the Good News that Jesus can save. And no one can do this without the Holy Ghost, right? And I've seen too much evidence of the Lord's work in our church to ever doubt that we don't have the Spirit! Be careful what you say about something you evidently don't know a whole lot about.
We are told that we know we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren. Again I can't judge you, only God can do that. We should all be praying for one another instead of fussing And don't judge us, for we are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Oneness,you asked if any one in our churches have the Holy Ghost. They most certainly do!!Speaking in tongues is not the only evidence of the Holy Ghost. When you are saved you get the Holy Ghost at that moment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I can show you in numorous accounts where this was not true. If you will read the book of Acts closley you we see that the holy ghost did not fall on some until after the fact that they beleived. and were baptized. No where does it say in the bible that you receive the Holy Ghost as soon as you beleive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do you base your whole religion on the fact that you can speak in tongues? There's so much more to it than that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No we dont base our whole releigon on tongues. That is what this discussion is about.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> We are told to edify the church and build each other up. We are supposed to witness to the lost and spread the Good News that Jesus can save. And no one can do this without the Holy Ghost, right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes that is exactly what we are supposed to do but as far as your question goes the bible talks alot about being deceived.

2 cortinthians 14:13-14
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. There for it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.

SO yes people can do that without the HOly Ghost.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And I've seen too much evidence of the Lord's work in our church to ever doubt that we don't have the Spirit! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said that he was not there. For the Holy Spirit is everywhere

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We should all be praying for one another instead of fussing And don't judge us, for we are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not trying to fuss I promise. I dont like to do that. And i do pray for everyone of you. But WE all need to make sure that salvation that we are working out is going to be the right one in the end.

God Bless you susan.

 

[ONENESS]

DOes anyone know when Lorelei is comeing back. I miss this person.



Did you guys just get sick of the discussion?

 

[MEE]

Did you guys just get sick of the discussion?[/QB][/QUOTE]

ONENESS, maybe they were convienced.

 

[Don]

Nope, sorry MEE; just got sidetracked with some other thoughts and going-ons the last couple of days.

Oneness, you asked for evidences of the Holy Spirit (i.e., laying on of hands, etc.); sorry, but I believe I asked you first. Specifically, when I asked "How many people in the UPC are taking up snakes? How many are drinking poison?"

You answer first, then we'll go from there.

And you know, MEE, you could join in instead of letting Oneness take all the heat.

 

[MEE]

And you know, MEE, you could join in instead of letting Oneness take all the heat.[/QB][/QUOTE]

He doesn't need MEE, I think he is doing very well.

MEE

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And you know, MEE, you could join in instead of letting Oneness take all the heat <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where's the heat?

 

[ONENESS]

I have already answered it on pg 3 so if you want to got back and scan through it you are more than welcome too. But if you would i like i am on my way to a b-day for my grand ma and do not have much time so i will try to post something to night. Ok

GOd bless you guys.

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was not going to use someone elses words and did not really understand what the person was saying at first. But I started studing the scriptures mentioned above and I received the Revelation. Besides they put it in words a whole lot better than i could.

multiple choice. please choose the correct answer:

1) If i _____________________, then it will not hurt me.

a) run across a busy highway blindfolded.
b) jump from a ninth story window.
c) pick up a serpent.


2) If I _____________________, then I will speak in tongues.

a) smack my thumb with a hammer.
b) take a cold shower.
c) am filled with the Holy Ghost.

my point is that these things are reactions -- not actions. if i do this, then that will happen.

So you see these are all "if-then" statements.

Now its your turn. So if you will please answer my question.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Ok DHK, Don, and whoever else there is that want to reply.
You say that you guys are in the body of CHrist and that you are the true church that the bible talks about. And I agree with you I believe that you are.

Does it make since for me to say that in order to have any of the Gifts of the Holy GHostyou Must have the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. So in other words, without the gift of the Spirit there are no GIfts.

Here are the gifts:
1:Words of Wisdom
2:The word of Knowledge
3:Faith
4:Healing
5:Working of Miricles
6rophecy
7:discerning of spirits
8:divers kinds of tongues
9:interpretation of tongues

Here are the signs that Follow:
1:casting out devils
2:speaking with new tongues
3:drinking of deadly things will not harm you
4:Takeing up serpents
5:laying hands on the sick and them recovering.

Now all I want to know who in your church have these signs following them. Who in your church is prophesying. Who in your church is casting out devils, Who in your church is laying their hands on the sick and the sick recovering. Who in your church is speaking in tongues and who is interpreting what is being said.

So if The Holy Spirit is there all of these things should be takeing place.

So if you cant tell me than I will have to disagree with you. And move on and find another church where these signs are following. B/C where the Spirit of God is these things will be takeing place.

So One more time I ask who in your church has the Holy Ghost. I would like to talk to them about their experience.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Don]

Actually, Oneness, no, you did not. Here's what you said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How many people do I know in the UPC that have been bit by a snake and died? None. How many times have I once heard of someone dieing from drinking poison in the UPC? NONE. How many times have I saw or heard of someone laying there hands on the sick and they recoved? Time after Time after TIme After time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The question was: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How many people in the UPC are taking up snakes? How many are drinking poison?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>See, the first answer you provided was ambiguous; you haven't heard of anyone in the UPC being bitten by a snake and not dying does NOT equal "taking up snakes." You haven't heard of anyone drinking poison and not dying because...why? They're not drinking poison? Or they are, and they're not dying?

Answer the question, please. How many in the UPC are taking up snakes, and how many are drinking poison? Thanks.

 

[ONENESS]

did you read my other post? That should take care of your qestion.

See we could be takeing care of two things. I am not avoiding your question, I am trying to answer it, so would you quit avoiding mine.

Quit sipping on the milk and move on to the meat. But let me warn you, Some meat can be hard to chew.

Once more, If I receive the Holy Ghost, I will speak in tongues, If i pick up a snake it will not hurt me If we lay our hands on the sick then they shall recover, if We drink any poision thing, it shall not hurt us.

Picking up snakes and drinking posion and speaking in tongues are reactions not actions. If I do this then that will happen.

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Chemnitz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Quit sipping on the milk and move on to the meat. But let me warn you, Some meat can be hard to chew.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually it would be more accurate if we accussed you of sipping on milk. You are just like Thomas still seeking physical signs. We don't need the physical signs to be assured of our salvation.

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Actually it would be more accurate if we accussed you of sipping on milk. You are just like Thomas still seeking physical signs. We don't need the physical signs to be assured of our salvation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.

We dont seek after signs THE SIGNS FOLLOW US.

 

[Don]

Oneness, you're refusing to answer my question. Why?

See, what you're doing my friend, is supporting the idea that I've put forth: No one in the UPC is taking up snakes, and no one in the UPC is drinking poison. Yet these are clearly signs that are listed along with healing and speaking in tongues.

Now, I'm not encouraging you to take up a poisonous snake, and I'm not encouraging you to drink poison. But brother, if you're afraid to take up a snake, or drink poison, then I'm afraid you've proven our point.

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[ONENESS]

Don all of the above are if-then questions. I have answered your question. No where in the bible does it tell you to go out and do anyone of those things.

I will speak in tongues if I am filled with the HOly Ghost.

I will Not be hurt if I pick up a snake.

I will not be hurt if i drink any posion thing

They will recover If I lay my hands on the sick.

Now lets see. Have i ever picked up a snake. Yes.

Have I ever drank any poision? Probably

Have i spoken in tongues? Yes

Have I layed my hands on the sick and have they been healed? I am not sure. But I know people that have.

Have i ever cast out a devil? No i have not but I know people that have.

Once more The signs are following us. Are they you?

Please. Even if you are right and I am wrong, would you please answer my question.

I am not trying to dance around the question. I am trying to answer it the best way that I know how.

I have only been living for God for about 3-1/2 years so give me a little slack if i dont answer it the way YOU want me too. I am trying.

So please endulge me on what I have asked you.

 

[superdave]

Lorelei,
I am late entering the discussion, but thought I would add a point.

In Acts 11:15, the only scripture where we see anyone recieving the Holy Spirit at the time of their conversion, there is one major difference. They were Gentiles. I believe God was giving Peter the ammo he was going to need when he returned to Jerusalem. To prove to the Leaders of the church that God had extended his Spirit to the Gentiles for salvation as well.

I am of the belief that the Sign gifts were given as evidences of the truth of a speaker, and were not seen after the Apostolic age. The canon of scripture was completed and later in the epistles we see Paul encouraging the churches to compare what a teacher said with the scripture, and what he and the apostles had taught, not to evaluate it based on what sign accompanied it. They did not need the gifts of Interpretation and Discernment as they could test teaching with the truth of the Word.

 

[Don]

Thanks, Oneness. I wasn't looking for you to answer the question the way I wanted you to; I was looking for you to simply answer the question.

Now, for yours:

1:casting out devils
2:speaking with new tongues
3:drinking of deadly things will not harm you
4:Takeing up serpents
5:laying hands on the sick and them recovering.

Two things about casting out of devils: 1) I don't shirk my responsibility, or anyone else's, by saying that I did something because a devil made me do it. I don't ascribe to Bob Larson-ism that absolves the individual of the responsibility of their actions. It's not biblical. 2) We've prayed for people many times, and things in their lives that were obstructing their walk with Christ were removed.

Speaking with new tongues: I've heard stories, just as everyone else has, of missionaries and others who have spoken in what they thought was English, but were later told that everyone heard them in Spanish or another language. But the key here is, "heard." I don't know anyone personally, and have never heard anyone speak in a new language except for the so-called "tongue of angels" (which doesn't exist).

I've known a couple of people who accidentally drank stuff that should have poisoned them; they're just fine. However, they've never spoken in tongues.

I don't know anyone who willingly takes up serpents. I've known quite a few people who were bit by rattlesnakes, water moccasins, and copperheads, and survived (but I've never heard them speak in tongues).

Yes, I've prayed for people, and been part of a group of men who have prayed for someone who was ill, and they've been healed; but neither I nor anyone I know laid hands on them (and none of us speaks in tongues).

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[superdave]

I believe that Unknown refers to the Speaker.

Speaking in many languages is a skill that can be learned

Speaking in your own language and the audience hearing it in their own language without interpreters is another thing alltogether.

I believe the gift was the ability to speak in a tongue you had not learned, or speaking and the audience hearing their own language through the work of the Holy Spirit. Very different from speaking a gibberish language that no one could understand.

Besides the fact that we do not see tongues in every case where regeneration and Spirit Baptism occurred. We only see it in a select few cases. It was not the test of someone's salvation, and it was not some mystical after salvation experience.

Jesus condmened many Religious leaders for looking for a sign, knowing that they did so out of their unbelief. Many today look for visible signs of the working of the Spirit because they lack the one key gift of the Holy Ghost, faith and knowlege of our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that they are preaching what Paul called "another gospel"

In I Cor 12:13, Paul says "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"

This is just after he talks about the different gifts given to different people. They all had the same Spirit, but did not all speak in tongues

I Cor 12:30 "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


Gal 1:6-9 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you unto the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have recieved, let him be accursed."

Paul clearly did not teach that Tongues were the proof that a person had recieved the Holy Spirit, and said if anyone tried to preach that, they were to be accursed.