Tongues as the evidence of the Holy Spirit is not Biblical

Bro. Curtis · Jan 29, 2002

OOOOOHHH..... you are opening up a can of worms here, arent ya!!!

When people do things against the word of God, & try to justify it, I think of 1Samuel 15:23. I'll let you read it yourself.

Babbling in tounges has no place in Christianity today.

ONENESS · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So if you don’t know what someone is speaking about, he is just using that to bring glory to himself.

This brings me to a very important principal. Why do we gather together to worship? - We do so to bring glory to God. The focus of your worship should be God. Now take a Pentecostal church. The preacher is preaching and all of a sudden people are running down FRONT - babbling and screaming and flopping on the floor. Can you focus on God with all that going on right down there in the front of the church? No. These people who are doing that, are they bringing attention to God or are they bringing it upon themselves? If they weren’t doing that to bring attention upon themselves - why do you think they all run down to the FRONT of the church to do it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*SIGH*

What in the world? You guys make me sick. Only if you guys knew what ture worship was all about. I am not perfect and I am a long cry away from being perfect. But what you dont understand is that when someone runs around or someone raises his hands or shouts a thanks to God or what ever, are thy doing it to bring Praise to themselves? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

You dont know how ill that little comment made me. Your bashing something that you beer bottled baptist know nothing about. YOu need the HOly Ghost. You need it so it will open your understanding. Thats why you guys sit on your pews like a lump on a pickle with your arms folded all cold, carnal and calloused with polar bears in the pulpits and ice birgs in the pews. Open your eyes in the Name of Jesus.

We run, shout, dance, sing, praise, clap, stomp our feet, and everything else for the GLORY OF GOD NOT OUR SELVES. B/C HE HAS DONE SO MUCH FOR US. BUT YOU GUYS WOULD NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT. B/C YOU ARE UNLEARNED.

YOU ASK WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT TONGUES IS THE EVIDENCE THAT WILL TAKE PLACE WHEN YOU RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. WELL I ASK YOU WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT IT DOES NOT?

EITER WAY IT DOES NOT SAY. DO YOU HAVE TO REPENT TO GO TO HEAVEN? I HOPE THAT YOU WOULD SAY YES. SHOW ME IN THE BOOK OF ACTS WHERE IT EVER RECORDS THAT ONE PERSON REPENTED. DOES THIS MEAN THAT IT DID NOT TAKE PLACE? NO IT DOES NOT. MORAL OF THE STORY. JUST B/C SOMETHING DOES NOT COME RIGHT OUT AND SAY IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS NOT TRUE.

ITS SEEMS THAT GOD HAS REVEALED CERTAIN THINGS TO CERTAIN PEOPLE. COULD IT BE B/C WE PRAISE GOD IN HIS SANCTUARY IN THE FIRMAMENT OF HIS POWER, FOR HIS MIGHTY ACTS FOR HIS EXCELLENT GREATNESS? COULD IT BE B/C WE PRAISE HIM WITH THE TUMPET PSALTERY, AND HARP? COULD IT BE B/C WE PRAISE HIM WITH THE TIMBREL DANCE? COULD IT BE B/C WE PRAISE HIM WITH STRINGED INSTRUMENTS AND ORGANS? COULD IT BE B/C WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE FACT THAT EVERYTHING THAT HAS BREATH SHOULD PRAISE THE LORD? COULD IT BE THE FACT THAT GOD LOVES OUR WORSHIP? COULD IT BE THE FACT THAT GOD LOVES OUR SINSERNESS?

IM SORRY BUT BASKET MAKEING CLASSES AND QUILT CLASSES ON WEDNESDAY NIGHT JUST DONT MOVE GOD, ARE WE THE ONLY ONES THAT HAVE FIGURED IT OUT.

MAYBE THERE ARE SOME DOING IT FOR THEMSELVES AND FOR THERE ON GLORY, BUT WHEN YOU PUT YOUR PRAISE TO GOD, IM SORRY BUT GOD ACCEPTS IT WITH AN OPEN ARM.

YOU LOOK AT US DIFFRENT B/C WE TALK, WALK, LOOK AND ACT DIFFRENT. WE ARE A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A ROYAL PREIST HOOD, WE ARE CALLED. I AM SORRY IF THAT OFFENDS YOU BUT PRAISE GOD FOR THE CALLING.

I MESSED UP BIG YESTERDAY, I AM NOT PERFECT BUT PRAISE GOD I CAN STILL PICK MY SELF BACK FROM THE GROUND AND RUN TO AN ALTER OF REPENTANCE AND SHOUT OUT "I LOVE YOU JESUS WITH A HUNDRED PEOPLE STANDING AROUND ME" NOT B/C OF WHAT I CAN DO BUT B/C OF WHAT GOD HAS DONE.

YOU GUYS CAN GO WATCH YOUR FAVORITE FOOTBALL RACE CAR OR BACEBALL TEAM HIT A GRAND SLAM OR MAKE A TOUCH DOWN AND JUMP UP AND DOWN AND LEAP FOR JOY AND SHOUT OUT TO THE TOP OF YOUR LUNGS "WE LOVE YOU" BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. WHY CANT YOU DO IT FOR JESUS.

I CAN RELATE TO PAUL HERE

6. Howbeit we speak * wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought * :

7. But we speak * the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden * wisdom, which God ordained * before the world unto our glory:

8. Which none of the princes of this world knew * : for had they known * it, they would * not have crucified * the Lord of glory.

9. But as it is written * , Eye hath * not seen * , nor ear heard * , neither have entered * into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared * for them that love * him.

10. But God hath revealed * them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth * all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11. For what man knoweth * the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth * no man, but the Spirit of God.

12. Now we have received * , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know * the things that are freely given * to us of God.

13. Which things also we speak * , not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing * spiritual things with spiritual.

14. But the natural man receiveth * not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are * foolishness unto him: neither can * he know * them, because they are spiritually discerned * .

15. But he that is spiritual judgeth * all things, yet he himself is judged * of no man.

16. For who hath known * the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct * him? But we have * the mind of Christ.

YOU GUYS MAKE ME SICK

ONENESS · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If you cannot be understood - why speak? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

B/C IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE GET TO DO. IT IS SOMETHING THAT THE SPIRIT ALLOWS US TO DO.

DID THE APOSTLES THAT WERE SPEAKING IN TONGUES ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WERE SAYING? NO THEY DID NOT. SO WHY THEN SPEAK? B/C THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM THE UTTERANCE

WHY DID PAUL SAY "FORBID NOT TO SPEAK IN TONGUES"

THE BIBLE SAYS THAT YOU SHOULD PRAY TO INTERPRET? WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU CANT? DOES THAT MAKE IT INVALID? NO IT JUST MAKES IT UNKNOWN.

I SEE WHERE YOU GUYS ARE COMEING FROM ON ALL THE POINTS THAT YOU MAKE. I READ IT WITH THE IDEA IN MIND THAT YOU TELL ME TO. AND IT SOUNDS GOOD. AND SO DOES A BEER AND A JOINT SOMETIMES. BUT DOES THAT MAKE IT RIGHT FOR ME TO G O O

UT AND DO IT?

I WAS NOT GOING TO BABBLE ABOUT THIS B/C I DONT LIKE THE THOUGHT OF IT. FOR ABOUT 1-1/2 YEARS NOW I HAVE BEEN STRUGGLEING WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF WETHER OR NOT THAT I BLASPHEMED THE HOLY GHOST. AND THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS NO LONGER WITH ME. AND SOMETIMES I AM AN UNBELIEVER. NO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN I SPEAK IN TONGUES? IT GIVES ME THE ASSURANCE TO BELEIVE IN GOD. SO THERE FOR IT IS STILL A SIGN TO THE UNBELIVER.

YOU GUYS ARE SO UNLEARNED. WE HAVE DEAF PEOPLE THAT HAVE SPOKE IN TONGUES. NOW TELL ME HOW THAT HAPPENS? THEY DONT KNOW WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY HAVE NEVER HEARED ANYONE SPEAK IN TONGUES BUT YET FOR SOME REASON THEY GET TO. THERE IS A GUY THAT COMES T O O

UR CHURCH THAT DOES NOT HAVE A VOICE BOX. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS? HE CAN MAKE A SOUND AT ALL. BUT FOR SOME FUNNY REASON WHEN HE WAS PRAISEING GOD AND GIVEING HIM THANKS HE SPOKE IN TONGUES AND ALOT OF PEOPLE HEARD HIM? BUT THAT WAS PROBABLY SOME GIBBERISH THAT A MAN THAT HAS NOT VOICE BOX MADE UP THAT WE ALL HEARD.

LIKE I SAID YOU GUYS MAKE ME SICK

MEE · Jan 29, 2002

Lorilei:
I have to just believe you at face value? I have to take your word for it? Isn't the point of the discussion to prove our points? The discussion topic is that tongues as the evidence of the Holy Spirit is not Biblical, not whether or not you believe it. If you want to say that it is indeed Biblical then show me in the BIBLE. Don't just say it is so. Otherwise start your own thread, "tongues as the evidence of the Holy Spirit is true because MEE says so"

MEE:
You wouldn't believe it Lorelei, IMO, if the Lord himself told you. I think you are afraid that it is true and are fighting against the things of God.

While I'm at it, Bro. Mike Floyd, that was the most pathetic post that I have ever heard.

Isaiah 28:11-12) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the *REFRESHING*: yet THEY WOULD NOT HEAR.

Acts 3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of *REFRESHING* shall come from the presence of the Lord;

You are right, this is a thread to try to prove that tongues are not Biblical. So, in that case, you all try to figure it out. So far you haven't.

MEE

ONENESS · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh yes, sorry my fault. I have so little time. You haven't said that, you have just avoided proving that it is. So please share with me the book chapter and verse that says it is biblical, or do we go back to I just have to believe you or you won't talk to me anymore??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO WE CANT SHOW YOU THAT IT SAYS THAT. AND I ADMIT IT.

SO HERE IS ONE FOR YOU SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS THAT THEY REPENTED. YOU DO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE TO REPENT TO GO TO HEAVEN DONT YOU? SO SHOW ME WHERE IT SAYS THEY REPENTED. AND DONT COME BACK WITH SCRIPTURE SAYING THAT THEY BELIEVED AND TRY TYEING REPENTING IN WITH BELIEVING B/C THEY ARE TWO DIFFRENT THINGS. SO PLEASE SHOW ME.

THE PROBLEM IS WITH YOU GUYS IS THIS. YOU READ IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS BELIEVE AND THEN YOU STOP. DISREGARDING THE REST OF THE REST. ALL THOUGH YOU SEE WHERE IT SAYS REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED EVERYONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS FOR THE REMISSION OF YOUR SINS AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. YOU READ IN ANOTHER CHAPTER WHERE IT SAYS BELEIVE AND NOTHING FOLLOWING. AND YOU LEAVE IT A BELEIVING AND STOP B/C NOTHING WAS RECORDED AFTER. BUT I AM SO THANKFUL WE KNOW WHAT GOES FOR ONE GOES FOR ALL. THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY FOR EVERYONE SO QUIT LOOKING AT THAT SMALL SCRIPTURE THAT LOOKS GOOD ON A BILL BOARD TO CAUSE SOMEONE TO THINK AND LOOK AT IT IN CONCORDANCE WITH THE REST OF THE BIBLE.

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

Don · Jan 29, 2002

"beer bottled baptists"???

Perhaps when everyone's settled down, we could try this again?

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Don ]

Vince · Jan 29, 2002

Lorelei is having trouble responding to this thread. She gets disconnected each time she hits submit reply, so we are testing to see if this account works on her computer.

Lorelei · Jan 29, 2002

Ok, so it is not my computer. If this post takes I will submit my actual response

Lorelei · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

YOU DO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE TO REPENT TO GO TO HEAVEN DONT YOU? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I Do! I believe it because the Bible says you have to repent to be saved! Not because someone else says so.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could give you many more verses that tell me this. That is how I KNOW they repented. You keep missing the point! I know that they repented because the Bible says so. I believe it because it is in the Word of God. Peter does not say repent and you will speak in tongues. Receiving the Holy Spirit does NOT require one to speak in tongues.

Even though it didn't say they repented, I know they did because the Word clearly shows that they had to or they wouldn't be saved. You can NOT use that same dedection with tongues because you have NO verses to base that deduction on. You admit that too!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

NO WE CANT SHOW YOU THAT IT SAYS THAT. AND I ADMIT IT. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why is it that you being filled with the Holy Spirit is made sick by people who are seeking evidence in the Word of God. All I am asking is to show me in God's Word. He promised us that through His Word we could be made complete. So how can you add to the Word of God and call us the ones who do not understand Him?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17
that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a child of God who is indeed filled with His Spirit, I disagree with you and want to show you the Truth through God's Holy Word. It saddens me when people are led astray, but you do not make me sick. It saddens me that I make you sick. I am trying to study God's Word for Truth. I know that no experience, nothing that I will go through should contradict or add to His Word. If asking you to prove it according to the Word of God makes you sick, then I am sorry. I will always hold fast and stand firm in the Word. I can tell you that my determination to find proof in His Word would NOT make the Holy Spirit sick.

You say we are the ones that are un-learned, yet we are the ones who are studying His Word to verify all things. You are the one who is going by your experience, what feels good and ignoring the Truth that we are revealing through the scriptures. You admit it is not there. Yes we must repent the BIBLE DOES TELL US THAT. It does not say we must speak in tongues!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
2 Corinthians 4:2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
THE BIBLE SAYS THAT YOU SHOULD PRAY TO INTERPRET? WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU CANT? DOES THAT MAKE IT INVALID? NO IT JUST MAKES IT UNKNOWN. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Bible does not say that you CAN'T. The Bible says to pray to interpret. If you Can't interpret then it is not from God.

Answer me this one question. Why would the only evidence of being baptized with the Holy Spirit be something that many other religions can copy? Many faiths speak in tongues, faiths that are contradictory to the Word of God. Tell me how that can be the proof of God's Spirit if it is something that can come from spirits other then God? That makes no sense and is NOT Biblical.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

THE PROBLEM IS WITH YOU GUYS IS THIS. YOU READ IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS BELIEVE AND THEN YOU STOP. DISREGARDING THE REST OF THE REST<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are so wrong! We read the entire passage. YOU are the ones using one verse here and one verse there but ignore the others in between and the context of the passage. You are the ones that can not verify your belief anywhere in the scriptures. I am NOT disregarding it, I am reading it in context. I WOULD believe you if you could prove it to me scripturally but you can't!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

~Lorelei

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

Lorelei · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MEE:
Lorilei:

You wouldn't believe it Lorelei, IMO, if the Lord himself told you. I think you are afraid that it is true and are fighting against the things of God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Lord hasn't told you, yet you believe it. The Lord HAS told me in His Word how one receives the Holy Spirit. Speaking in tongues has nothing to do with that. I am not afraid of the things of God I study, pray and meditate on them day and night. You are the one afraid to really seek the Word to see what it says.

I await your proof in God's Word where it proves that one must speak in tongues to receive the Holy Spirit. You keep denying that you have said it doesn't say it, so if it does.. WHERE IS IT?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MEE:

Isaiah 28:11-12) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the *REFRESHING*: yet THEY WOULD NOT HEAR.

Acts 3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of *REFRESHING* shall come from the presence of the Lord;<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did hear and I did receive that refreshing. The Apostles spoke in tongues to fulfill this prophecy and now all that call on the name of the Lord shall be saved! The Holy Spirit seals that promise! Praise His Holy Name! I do not need to speak in tongues to be refreshed! I am at rest in His Spirit! Tongues are not the rest, the Spirit is!

Paul quoted this scripture, in the very chapter where he was telling the Corinthians how they were abusing the gift of tongues. Such as many are today.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>1 Corinthains 20
Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.
21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me,"[6] says the Lord.
22
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure doesn't sound like tongues are the sign for believers to know they are saved. He didn't use this to convince them that time of refreshing was to keep speaking some babble in the churches. He told them to try to excell in other things! v 12
"So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church."

I think I will listen to Paul's interpretation of this prophecy, not yours.

Again I repeat:

I await your proof in God's Word where it proves that one must speak in tongues to receive the Holy Spirit. You keep denying that you have said it doesn't say it, so if it does.. WHERE IS IT?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MEE:
Lorilei:
You are right, this is a thread to try to prove that tongues are not Biblical. So, in that case, you all try to figure it out. So far you haven't.

MEE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, this thread proves that you have no proof that tongues as the evidence of the Holy Spirit Baptism is Biblical, otherwise you would have quoted the scripture that says so by now.

I have figured it out. The Word of God tells me what I need to know.

I await your proof in God's Word where it proves that one must speak in tongues to receive the Holy Spirit. You keep denying that you have said it doesn't say it, so if it does.. WHERE IS IT?

~Lorelei

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

ONENESS · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I await your proof in God's Word where it proves that one must speak in tongues to receive the Holy Spirit. You keep denying that you have said it doesn't say it, so if it does.. WHERE IS IT? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one here has ever said that you must speak in tongues to receive the holy ghost. Who said that? We are simply saying that when you receive the HOly Ghost you will

And its not you that makes me sick, I am sorry about that. Its the other person that said something about we only do what we do for the attention.

And that still makes me sick.

God bless. I will search this out for you. I will keep digging until I prove you right.

God bless
Brian

Bro. Curtis · Jan 30, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

No one here has ever said that you must speak in tongues to receive the holy ghost. Who said that? We are simply saying that when you receive the HOly Ghost you will

God bless
Brian<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this go for everybody ?

MEE · Jan 30, 2002

Originally posted by Lorelei:
[QB]

No, this thread proves that you have no proof that tongues as the evidence of the Holy Spirit Baptism is Biblical, otherwise you would have quoted the scripture that says so by now.

I have figured it out. The Word of God tells me what I need to know.

I await your proof in God's Word where it proves that one must speak in tongues to receive the Holy Spirit. You keep denying that you have said it doesn't say it, so if it does.. WHERE IS IT?

~Lorelei

I told myself that I wasn't going to do this, but I will try one more time.

Keep in mind, I'm not upset. I just don't understand why people can't understand about receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, when people receive it all the time, with the evidence of speaking in tongues. It's not new!

Acts 2:1) And when the day of Pentecost, was *FULLY COME,* they were all with one accord in one place.

Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE.(their evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost)
Lorelei, this is how the 120 in the upper room knew that they had received the Holy Spirit!

Acts 2:6) Now when *THIS* (the out pouring of the Spirit, spoken by the prophet Joel) was noised abroad, the *MULTITUDE* came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Acts 2:12) And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth *THIS*?

Acts 2:13) Others mocking (sound familar Bro Mike Floyd?) said, These men are full of new wine.

Acts 2:14) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and harken to my words:

Acts 2:15) For these are not *DRUNKEN* as ye suppose, seeing it is *BUT THE ***THIRD*** HOUR OF THE DAY.* (Three hours had went by since the day of Pentecost had arrived)

If you will notice, what had been noised abroad was that the "Spirit of God" had been given to men. (although the the devout men didn't realize what had happened). Also, that in Acts 2:4, when the Holy Ghost was poured out, for the *first* time, that it came when the day of Pentecost was fully come. If I'm not mistaken the Jewish day starts at 6:00 AM and by the time the devout men came together and began to question, as to what was going on, it was *THREE* hours later.

Acts 2:16) But *THIS* (the pouring out of the Spirit) is *THAT* which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my *SPIRIT* upon ALL FLESH: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Lorelei, when I prayed for God to fill me with His Spirit that is exactly what I got. I wasn't praying for "tongues." I knew when I spoke in "tongues" that, that was the *EVIDENCE* that I had been filled with His Spirit, just like in Acts 2:4.

Luke 11:11-13) If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12) Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the *HOLY SPIRIT* to them that ask him?

To sum it all up, when I asked the Lord to fill me with His Spirit, I spoke in an other tongue, just like they did in Acts 2:4. It is the evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I got "exactly" what I asked of the Lord.

If you are looking for the word "evidence," it's not there. As you well know, the word Trinity or rapture aren't either, but we both know what they mean. Know what I mean?

MEE

Lorelei · Jan 30, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

No one here has ever said that you must speak in tongues to receive the holy ghost. Who said that? We are simply saying that when you receive the HOly Ghost you will<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that saying the same thing? If you receive the Holy Ghost you will speak in tongues therefore If I don't speak in tongues I don't have the Holy Ghost, therefore I must speak in tongues or I didn't receive the Holy Ghost? Just asking if this is what you meant. Sounds the same either way to me.

I do accept your apology and I do hope you do what you set out to do....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
God bless. I will search this out for you. I will keep digging until I prove you right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hope you do!

~Lorelei

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

Lorelei · Jan 30, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MEE:
I told myself that I wasn't going to do this, but I will try one more time.

Keep in mind, I'm not upset. I just don't understand why people can't understand about receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, when people receive it all the time, with the evidence of speaking in tongues. It's not new!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You already begin by saying you don't understand why I can't understand something that people do all the time. Just because people go sky diving doesn't mean I have to do it, nor does it mean it is biblical. Just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean it is of God. So I must look to God's Word to make sure that what everyone else is doing is what He wants or expects us to do. We are to test the Spirits are we not?

I disagree about it being new. The tongues that you are speaking and the "Baptism of the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues" is new. Pentecostal churches didn't exist til about the turn of the century. The very late 1800s to early 1900s. If this Second blessing Spirit Baptism and speaking in tongues is the way it is supposed to be, why were there no believers who did this between the Book of Acts and then?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Acts 2:1) And when the day of Pentecost, was *FULLY COME,* they were all with one accord in one place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes the *DAY* had fully come. And that has what to do with tongues?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE.(their evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, those in that room spoke with tongues, I do not deny that. Other people spoke with tongues too, but that doesn't mean that everyone who receives the Spirit will do so. Notice the words AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE. Not as they asked for it, The Spirit caused them to do it. But as it says in 1 Corinthians not everyone is given this gift as the manifestation of the Spirit.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>1 Corinthians 12:7
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MEE:
Lorelei, this is how the 120 in the upper room knew that they had received the Holy Spirit!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, this is how those who heard about it knew. And why is it that the blowing violent wind and tongues of fire are never ever mentioned by those who insist this is THE Way it must happen?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MEE:

If you will notice, what had been noised abroad was that the "Spirit of God" had been given to men. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you look up the word abroad in a Strong's concordance you will note that it means a sound, tone or speach. In other words, when this sound was heard the multitudes came together. At the moment they heard it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MEE:

(although the the devout men didn't realize what had happened). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many devout men still deny Jesus as the Messiah.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Acts 2:16) But *THIS* (the pouring out of the Spirit) is *THAT* which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my *SPIRIT* upon ALL FLESH: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/QB]

I see prophecy, visions and dreams mentioned, but not tongues...interesting.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MEE:

Lorelei, when I prayed for God to fill me with His Spirit that is exactly what I got. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why were you praying for God to fill you with His Spirit? The Apostles didn't pray for God to fill Him with His Spirit, it just happened. Why? Because they couldn't receive the Spirit when they believed because "Jesus was not yet glorified". You have to look at the book of Acts in context. They didn't ask for the Spirit, they were TOLD by Jesus to wait for it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MEE:

I wasn't praying for "tongues." I knew when I spoke in "tongues" that, that was the *EVIDENCE* that I had been filled with His Spirit, just like in Acts 2:4.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But they didn't "pray" for it. Muslim's speak in tongues, does that mean they can know they were filled with the Spirit of God?

Why do you always ignore v 2 and 3? Because it doesn't match what happened to you if you don't?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MEE:

Luke 11:11-13) If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12) Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the *HOLY SPIRIT* to them that ask him?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He does give His Spirit generously to those who seek Him, but again...no speaking in tongues mentioned.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MEE:

If you are looking for the word "evidence," it's not there. As you well know, the word Trinity or rapture aren't either, but we both know what they mean. Know what I mean?

MEE

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only is the word evidence not there, the Bible DOES tell me that not everyone will speak in tongues!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5
There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
6
There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8
To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10
to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[2] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now you want to tell me the "Evidence" is different from the "gift". That is simply not true. That is why The Bible MUST specify somewhere between the two or it is indeed NOT Biblical.

Not only is your doctrine NOT Biblical, it contradicts the very Word of God!

~Lorelei

ChristianCynic · Jan 30, 2002

< 13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the *HOLY SPIRIT* to them that ask him?

To sum it all up, when I asked the Lord to fill me with His Spirit, I spoke in an other tongue, just like they did in Acts 2:4. It is the evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I got "exactly" what I asked of the Lord. >

You are contending on this thread that everyone-- including the deaf and mute, I suppose-- will speak in an unknown "tongue" [which means audible language] if the words of Jesus are true and receiving the Holy Spirit is asked. Many have asked to receive the Spirit and do not make such utterances. So who is the liar?... Jesus, for saying the Holy Spirit will be given to all who ask, or yourself, for saying the evidence without exception of such an experience is speaking in an unknown tongue?

ONENESS · Jan 30, 2002

Guys a question for you.

How did peter know that the Holy Ghost Had fallen?

How did he know "this is that which was spoken by the prophet joel?"

Lorelei · Jan 30, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
Guys a question for you.

How did peter know that the Holy Ghost Had fallen?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*Peter knew because Jesus had told Him it would happen: Acts 1:4 "
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about."

*Because the Spirit made itself known: Acts 1:2 "Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting." and Acts 1:3 "
They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them" then Acts 1:4 "4
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit "

Then they "began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them"

They knew the promise was coming, They heard the sound from heaven that filled the house, They saw the cloven tongues of fire and were filled with the Holy Spirit. THEN They spoke in tongues "as the Spirit enabled them".

They received the Spirit, THEN the gift of tongues was demonstrated by the same Spirit.

Peter knew it was of the Spirit because the Spirit proved it. John 14:26 "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

How did he know "this is that which was spoken by the prophet joel?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the same reason, the Holy Spirit revealed it to Him. Not because he had a "gift" but because the Holy Spirit revealed it to Him. John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth"

The Spirit can do so much more then make someone speak in tongues! Tongues were for one reason, a sign for unbelieving Jews. (1 Corinthians 14:22)

Why do you limit the Spirit to only one way of revealing Himself?

~Lorelei

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

superdave · Jan 30, 2002

Lorelei,
You seem right on to me, and yes I don't see any difference between "IF you're baptised with the spirit you will speak in tongues, and if you speak in tongues you are baptised in the spirit." Smells the same to me, either way, if you didn't speak in tongues, you aint filled, so I don't understand the confusion there.

Tongues were clearly not present at the conversion or Spirit Baptism of all first century christians, especially after the book of Acts, so there is no Biblical evidence to support them as a required sign for the Baptism of the spirit.

Acts is not a good place to go for our faith and practice as it is a historical book and reveals the transition of the church from the age of the Law. The teachings of Paul are much clearer on matters of church polity and practice, and clearly Paul doesn't require any outward signs of Spirit filling.

Good clear support for the Biblical truth regarding Spirit Baptism, and keep asking for Biblical support instead of "I felt it"

MEE · Jan 30, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ChristianCynic:

You are contending on this thread that everyone-- including the deaf and mute, I suppose-- will speak in an unknown "tongue" [which means audible language] if the words of Jesus are true and receiving the Holy Spirit is asked. Many have asked to receive the Spirit and do not make such utterances. So who is the liar?... Jesus, for saying the Holy Spirit will be given to all who ask, or yourself, for saying the evidence without exception of such an experience is speaking in an unknown tongue?[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since you are not around people that are filled with the Spirit of God, with the evidnece of speaking in other tongues, then you probably don't know that God *does* speak through the deaf and mute. I can't explain why the mute can't talk afterwards, but it has happend numerous times. Nothing is impossible with God. Do you really think that He would leave out a soul with such an affliction?

BTW, neither of us are liars.

MEE

Tongues as the evidence of the Holy Spirit is not Biblical

<img src =/curtis.gif>

New Member

New Member

<img src=/me3.jpg>

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

<img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

<img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

<img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

New Member

<img src =/curtis.gif>

<img src=/me3.jpg>

<img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

<img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

<img src=/cc2.jpg>

New Member

<img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

New Member

<img src=/me3.jpg>