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Tongues as the evidence of the Holy Spirit is not Biblical
- Thread starter Lorelei
- Start date
We never need to support sound doctrine with selective and highly interpretive evidence - that is why we call it sound doctrine. This is like building your house on a rock.
Taking three or four verses out of context, building a house around them then trying to fortify them against the remainder of the canon just to appease an emotional and weak position is like building your house on the sand.
I think if I found myself clinging to ideas that are weak and wordly, I would examine myself and my beliefs yet again. But that is just what I think.
Searcher.
[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Searcher ]
Taking three or four verses out of context, building a house around them then trying to fortify them against the remainder of the canon just to appease an emotional and weak position is like building your house on the sand.
I think if I found myself clinging to ideas that are weak and wordly, I would examine myself and my beliefs yet again. But that is just what I think.
Searcher.
[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Searcher ]
ChristianCynic
<img src=/cc2.jpg>
< I can't explain why the mute can't talk afterwards, but it has happend numerous times. >
Baloney.
Baloney.
ROBERTGUWAPO
Member
Ahaaa--the doctrine of pretrib rapture!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Searcher:
Taking three or four verses out of context, building a house around them then trying to fortify them against the remainder of the canon just to appease an emotional and weak position is like building your house on the sand.[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Searcher ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Searcher:
Taking three or four verses out of context, building a house around them then trying to fortify them against the remainder of the canon just to appease an emotional and weak position is like building your house on the sand.[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Searcher ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
MEE:
I am not one of the lost sheep of Isreal, I am a Gentile. These verses were specifically to the disciples that he sent to the "lost sheep of Isreal". Otherwise you better not have any money and be on the road doing nothing but spreading the message to Jews and only Jews.
Of course the message is that "the Kingdom of Heaven is Near", not that you must speak in tongues.
If you are going to be shaking your feet, why aren't you raising the dead too?
~Lorelei
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
6
Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
7
As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.'
8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
9
Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts;
10
take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.
11
"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave.
12
As you enter the home, give it your greeting.
13
If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you.
14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course they were told to do many things, but you know what ...speaking in tongues was not one of them.
You might want to read the Word before you quote it.
~Lorelei
I am not one of the lost sheep of Isreal, I am a Gentile. These verses were specifically to the disciples that he sent to the "lost sheep of Isreal". Otherwise you better not have any money and be on the road doing nothing but spreading the message to Jews and only Jews.
Of course the message is that "the Kingdom of Heaven is Near", not that you must speak in tongues.
If you are going to be shaking your feet, why aren't you raising the dead too?
~Lorelei
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
6
Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
7
As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.'
8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
9
Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts;
10
take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.
11
"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave.
12
As you enter the home, give it your greeting.
13
If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you.
14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course they were told to do many things, but you know what ...speaking in tongues was not one of them.
You might want to read the Word before you quote it.
~Lorelei
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Of course they were told to do many things, but you know what ...speaking in tongues was not one of them.
You might want to read the Word before you quote it.
~Lorelei
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You just dont get it do you. Speaking in tongues is not something we can do. It is something that the Spirit does.
But while I am at it, Yes I know person that has prayed for a person who was dead for about 20 mins to come back to life AND IT HAPPEND. ANd they were not doing CPR. The lady that was praying layed herself out across the dead body and prayed and The dead person was brought back to life. Now I am not saying that when she layed across the corps had anything with the life being brought back but that is just what she did.
And no matter how you guys interprate the bible. The Signs are still following us.
One more thing. THe whole time we have been talking about tongues being the evidence that one has received the gift of the HOly Ghost, and I may be mistaken but you guys do beleive that the gift is gone to correct?
You might want to read the Word before you quote it.
~Lorelei
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You just dont get it do you. Speaking in tongues is not something we can do. It is something that the Spirit does.
But while I am at it, Yes I know person that has prayed for a person who was dead for about 20 mins to come back to life AND IT HAPPEND. ANd they were not doing CPR. The lady that was praying layed herself out across the dead body and prayed and The dead person was brought back to life. Now I am not saying that when she layed across the corps had anything with the life being brought back but that is just what she did.
And no matter how you guys interprate the bible. The Signs are still following us.
One more thing. THe whole time we have been talking about tongues being the evidence that one has received the gift of the HOly Ghost, and I may be mistaken but you guys do beleive that the gift is gone to correct?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
6
Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
7
As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.'
8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
9
Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts;
10
take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.
11
"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave.
12
As you enter the home, give it your greeting.
13
If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you.
14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course they were told to do many things, but you know what ...speaking in tongues was not one of them.
You might want to read the Word before you quote it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yea they were told to do many things and Yes you are right speaking in tongues was not one of them. You must have done alot of studying to notice that
Did you happen to catch where he told them to preach repentance or remission of sins or the Holy Ghost, or living a HOly Life, or baptisim, and all that other stuff they preached?
Me either
I am still searching and praying about it though I will assure you of that.
God bless L
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
6
Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
7
As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.'
8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
9
Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts;
10
take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.
11
"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave.
12
As you enter the home, give it your greeting.
13
If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you.
14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course they were told to do many things, but you know what ...speaking in tongues was not one of them.
You might want to read the Word before you quote it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yea they were told to do many things and Yes you are right speaking in tongues was not one of them. You must have done alot of studying to notice that
Did you happen to catch where he told them to preach repentance or remission of sins or the Holy Ghost, or living a HOly Life, or baptisim, and all that other stuff they preached?
Me either
I am still searching and praying about it though I will assure you of that.
God bless L
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
One more thing. THe whole time we have been talking about tongues being the evidence that one has received the gift of the HOly Ghost, and I may be mistaken but you guys do beleive that the gift is gone to correct?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes I do, but that would be another thread. I wanted this thread to focus on this one point, since some people kept saying that it is indeed the evidence, but did not back it up scripturally.
As much as you have talked about the issue and shared "experiences" you have yet to use any scripture to back up your claim. Experiences are wonderful..IF they can be supported by the Word of God.
As for your response to my remarks about MEE Shaking the dust off his feet. No, I didn't notice any of those things. I was just pointing out that if MEE was going to try to play the role of the valiant apostle that was being persecuted for righteousness sake and shake me off that easily, I figured he might want to know what he was actually supposed to be doing. I doubt God would want us to give up sharing the Truth because we felt no one was listening. Especially when the person who was "ignoring" him was the person who was actually sharing the Word of God boldly rather then just saying "You need the Spirit" and leaving it at that.
I am pleased that you are still searching and praying about it. Believe me I am as well. This is something I have been studying for quite some time and my opinion has changed since my studies began. I realized that what I had "believed" didn't really line up with what the Word said. I have said it before and I will say it again. If you show me (according to the Word of God) where I am in error, I will gladly focus on correcting that error and pleasing my Lord.
Until then, may the Lord bless both of our studies as we search the scriptures daily in search of His Truth. May we walk ever closer with the Lord.
~Lorelei
PS. MEE, when you are finished shaking off dust and making facial expressions and are ready to study God's Word for the Truth do let me know.
Rather then shaking someone off, I prefer to follow the instructions of 2 Timothy.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
2 Timothy 2:24
And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
25
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
26
and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
One more thing. THe whole time we have been talking about tongues being the evidence that one has received the gift of the HOly Ghost, and I may be mistaken but you guys do beleive that the gift is gone to correct?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes I do, but that would be another thread. I wanted this thread to focus on this one point, since some people kept saying that it is indeed the evidence, but did not back it up scripturally.
As much as you have talked about the issue and shared "experiences" you have yet to use any scripture to back up your claim. Experiences are wonderful..IF they can be supported by the Word of God.
As for your response to my remarks about MEE Shaking the dust off his feet. No, I didn't notice any of those things. I was just pointing out that if MEE was going to try to play the role of the valiant apostle that was being persecuted for righteousness sake and shake me off that easily, I figured he might want to know what he was actually supposed to be doing. I doubt God would want us to give up sharing the Truth because we felt no one was listening. Especially when the person who was "ignoring" him was the person who was actually sharing the Word of God boldly rather then just saying "You need the Spirit" and leaving it at that.
I am pleased that you are still searching and praying about it. Believe me I am as well. This is something I have been studying for quite some time and my opinion has changed since my studies began. I realized that what I had "believed" didn't really line up with what the Word said. I have said it before and I will say it again. If you show me (according to the Word of God) where I am in error, I will gladly focus on correcting that error and pleasing my Lord.
Until then, may the Lord bless both of our studies as we search the scriptures daily in search of His Truth. May we walk ever closer with the Lord.
~Lorelei
PS. MEE, when you are finished shaking off dust and making facial expressions and are ready to study God's Word for the Truth do let me know.
Rather then shaking someone off, I prefer to follow the instructions of 2 Timothy.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
2 Timothy 2:24
And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
25
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
26
and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
~Lorelei
PS. MEE, when you are finished shaking off dust and making facial expressions and are ready to study God's Word for the Truth do let me know.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lorelei, I don't know what else to tell you. I have shown you scriptures and told you of my experience. I really don't know what else you want. IMO, I don't think that you really want to know if tongues are for us or that you don't believe in them and just want to argue. Still puzzled!
If you would ever get it straightend out that the baptism of the Holy Ghost and the gift of tongues *ARE NOT* the same thing. Yes, by the same Spirit but not used in the same way. The saints, in the fourteenth chaper of Corinthians, already had the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
What happened on the Day of Pentecost was not the gift of tongues, which is not required for salvation. The people, on that day *DID NOT* need an interpreter. The devout men knew what was being said. There was no interpreter! So, it was not the gift of tongues.
In 1 Cor. 14, Paul was talking about the confusion of the *gift of tongues* and tryin
PS. MEE, when you are finished shaking off dust and making facial expressions and are ready to study God's Word for the Truth do let me know.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lorelei, I don't know what else to tell you. I have shown you scriptures and told you of my experience. I really don't know what else you want. IMO, I don't think that you really want to know if tongues are for us or that you don't believe in them and just want to argue. Still puzzled!
If you would ever get it straightend out that the baptism of the Holy Ghost and the gift of tongues *ARE NOT* the same thing. Yes, by the same Spirit but not used in the same way. The saints, in the fourteenth chaper of Corinthians, already had the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
What happened on the Day of Pentecost was not the gift of tongues, which is not required for salvation. The people, on that day *DID NOT* need an interpreter. The devout men knew what was being said. There was no interpreter! So, it was not the gift of tongues.
In 1 Cor. 14, Paul was talking about the confusion of the *gift of tongues* and tryin
~Lorelei
PS. MEE, when you are finished shaking off dust and making facial expressions and are ready to study God's Word for the Truth do let me know.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lorelei, I don't know what else to tell you. I have shown you scriptures and told you of my experience. I really don't know what else you want. IMO, I don't think that you really want to know if tongues are for us or that you don't believe in them and just want to argue. Still puzzled!
If you would ever get it straightend out that the baptism of the Holy Ghost and the gift of tongues *ARE NOT* the same thing. Yes, by the same Spirit but not used in the same way. The saints, in the fourteenth chaper of Corinthians, already had the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
What happened on the Day of Pentecost was not the gift of tongues, which is not required for salvation. The people, on that day *DID NOT* need an interpreter. The devout men knew what was being said. There was no interpreter! So, it was not the gift of tongues.
In 1 Cor. 14, Paul was talking about the confusion of the *gift of tongues* and trying to explain to them as to how the gift was to be used. He did not forbid them to speak in tongues.
Also, the nine gifts were left for the church and are still in use today, but are not required for salvation. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is required for salvation and when you receive the Spirit you will speak in tongues. If you don't believe it, I don't know what else to say.
MEE
PS. MEE, when you are finished shaking off dust and making facial expressions and are ready to study God's Word for the Truth do let me know.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lorelei, I don't know what else to tell you. I have shown you scriptures and told you of my experience. I really don't know what else you want. IMO, I don't think that you really want to know if tongues are for us or that you don't believe in them and just want to argue. Still puzzled!
If you would ever get it straightend out that the baptism of the Holy Ghost and the gift of tongues *ARE NOT* the same thing. Yes, by the same Spirit but not used in the same way. The saints, in the fourteenth chaper of Corinthians, already had the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
What happened on the Day of Pentecost was not the gift of tongues, which is not required for salvation. The people, on that day *DID NOT* need an interpreter. The devout men knew what was being said. There was no interpreter! So, it was not the gift of tongues.
In 1 Cor. 14, Paul was talking about the confusion of the *gift of tongues* and trying to explain to them as to how the gift was to be used. He did not forbid them to speak in tongues.
Also, the nine gifts were left for the church and are still in use today, but are not required for salvation. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is required for salvation and when you receive the Spirit you will speak in tongues. If you don't believe it, I don't know what else to say.
MEE
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
I have shown you scriptures and told you of my experience. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not scriptures that prove that the tongues the apostles spoke were different from the gift. Not scriptures that support that tongues must accompany the baptism of the Holy Spirit in all cases. Not scriptures that prove your arguments at all. Only your experiences support that and I don't worship a God of experiences I worship the God that is written about in the Bible.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
What happened on the Day of Pentecost was not the gift of tongues, which is not required for salvation. The people, on that day *DID NOT* need an interpreter. The devout men knew what was being said. There was no interpreter! So, it was not the gift of tongues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If it was not the "gift" of tongues then the devout men would not have understood what was being said.
When people that you know "speak in tongues" upon receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, does everyone around them understand what they are saying? Does everyone hear them in English ("in his own native language" v 8) They did in Acts 2.
No, what you call the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" with the evidence of tongues, is when someone speaks something that no one else can understand. I don't get it. Why the need for this "tongue" when everyone already speaks the same langauage. In Acts 2 people there spoke different languages, yet they could interpret that gift in their own native langauge.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
The baptism of the Holy Ghost is required for salvation and when you receive the Spirit you will speak in tongues. If you don't believe it, I don't know what else to say.
MEE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No where does the Bible say this, so I guess there is nothing else for you to say.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
~Lorelei
I have shown you scriptures and told you of my experience. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not scriptures that prove that the tongues the apostles spoke were different from the gift. Not scriptures that support that tongues must accompany the baptism of the Holy Spirit in all cases. Not scriptures that prove your arguments at all. Only your experiences support that and I don't worship a God of experiences I worship the God that is written about in the Bible.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
What happened on the Day of Pentecost was not the gift of tongues, which is not required for salvation. The people, on that day *DID NOT* need an interpreter. The devout men knew what was being said. There was no interpreter! So, it was not the gift of tongues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If it was not the "gift" of tongues then the devout men would not have understood what was being said.
When people that you know "speak in tongues" upon receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, does everyone around them understand what they are saying? Does everyone hear them in English ("in his own native language" v 8) They did in Acts 2.
No, what you call the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" with the evidence of tongues, is when someone speaks something that no one else can understand. I don't get it. Why the need for this "tongue" when everyone already speaks the same langauage. In Acts 2 people there spoke different languages, yet they could interpret that gift in their own native langauge.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
The baptism of the Holy Ghost is required for salvation and when you receive the Spirit you will speak in tongues. If you don't believe it, I don't know what else to say.
MEE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No where does the Bible say this, so I guess there is nothing else for you to say.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
~Lorelei
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
~Lorelei<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Originally posted by MEE:
The baptism of the Holy Ghost is required for salvation and when you receive the Spirit you will speak in tongues. If you don't believe it, I don't know what else to say.
MEE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No where does the Bible say this, so I guess there is nothing else for you to say.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lorelei, I'm sorry that you don't understand what I'm saying. Maybe someone else can explain to you the difference between the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" and "The Gift of Tongues."
You might try making an appointment with one of the local UPC ministers and see if he may be able to help.
BTW, how long have you studied this sbuject? Just curious if it is new to you.
MEE
~Lorelei<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Originally posted by MEE:
The baptism of the Holy Ghost is required for salvation and when you receive the Spirit you will speak in tongues. If you don't believe it, I don't know what else to say.
MEE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No where does the Bible say this, so I guess there is nothing else for you to say.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lorelei, I'm sorry that you don't understand what I'm saying. Maybe someone else can explain to you the difference between the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" and "The Gift of Tongues."
You might try making an appointment with one of the local UPC ministers and see if he may be able to help.
BTW, how long have you studied this sbuject? Just curious if it is new to you.
MEE
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Since this topic is approaching page 10, it will be closed at midnight tonight before I go to bed. Please make your final statements before then.
Joseph Botwinick
Moderator
Joseph Botwinick
Moderator
Pentecostals that know Jesus and Baptist that know Jesus, and have recieved Him into their hearts, are Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
Let's love one another for love is of God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that knoweth not God knoweth not love for God is love.
In Christ There is neither bond nor free,
Jew nor Greek Male or female.
Is irt safe to say that there is neither Baptist nor Pentecostal. But we are all members of his body placed in his church severlally as it pleases God.
Let's love one another for love is of God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that knoweth not God knoweth not love for God is love.
In Christ There is neither bond nor free,
Jew nor Greek Male or female.
Is irt safe to say that there is neither Baptist nor Pentecostal. But we are all members of his body placed in his church severlally as it pleases God.