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Tongues in the Old Testament. Understanding tongues through Biblical patterns, as the Bible teaches it.

Dave...

Active Member
You hold to Protestant and Baptist traditions, which don’t have a history going back to the Apostles.
These are all human interpretations of scripture with human founders in disagreement with each other, that had nothing to do with the Bible or the preservation and canonisation of the Bible.

You follow traditions of men.

This is relativism. In bible alonism scripture means what each man thinks it means, subjective human opinion is supreme.

Catholics have the singular objective Apostolic interpretation of Scripture, but Bible alonism has every conflicting subjective interpretation of scripture under the sun.
Don’t tell me you hold bible over tradition.
Cathode

It's not tradition to hold to the Bible. The mere fact that you said "You hold to Protestant and Baptist traditions, which don’t have a history going back to the Apostles" proves that it is you who who puts extra value on tradition. You're the one who quoted Catholic theologians as historical evidence that the sign gifts haven't ceased, not me. They could be lying about the those gifts just as people today are.

The Catholic ecumenical movement is unity at the expense of Truth. That's relativism. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Him. Mother Teresa was comforting dying Hindu's in her hospital and telling them to pray to their Hindu god. Sometimes I wonder who was first, the Catholic Church, or Marxism. you both do the same things.
 

Dave...

Active Member
Did you even read the accounts of the gifts by the post Apostolic Early Christians? They are listing the gifts that are mentioned in Scripture.

Yes, I'm simply asking you to consider the context in Scripture.

How many hundreds more would you like me to quote on these gifts throughout Christian history.

This seems to be the problem, you haven’t actually studied Church history.

I can quote hundreds throughout Church history.

Ok, you will refuse to believe them because it’s a Catholic quoting them, but do your own research if you don’t believe me.

Yes, and 1000 years from now "they" will be saying the same thing about today's Charismatics and Pentecostals. But is it true history, or false history? It's obviously false. Let us use the "Sword" to determine that. "It is written", "it is written", "it is written." That's what Jesus taught us to do.

What's happening today isn't the sign gifts. as has been clearly shown by Scripture. And has yet to demonstrate itself as such. Only many tall tales, exaggerations, and redefining of what those gifts actually were and were for.

The Gospel is always new Revelation to those who haven’t heard it.

From a personal perspective, yes, but from a doctrinal perspective, no. When we speak of new revelation, we are speaking of it as being revealed in history, not personally.

The Church Fathers all testify to the Scriptural gifts listed being used in their day.

They are not infallible. Jesus is the Word, the Bible.

Healings, prophecy, miracles, knowledge, resurrections.

Miracles, are not happening through humans agency. There is no new revelation being given. Prophecy is just proclaiming what was already revealed. Knowledge is not new revelation. Healings, even miraculous, are not through human agency. There are no resurrections physically.

Anything good that comes from us for the Church is a gift from God. That's the way you should understand the gifts. That's the way the Apostles understood it.

Martin of Tours, Gregory the wonder worker, Benedict, Francis of Assisi, Francis of Paola, Padre Pio in our modern day. Thousands more, literally.

Read the lives of the saints of the past, look at the gifts they had, it’s been continuous from the Apostles.

Mother Teresa is a modern day version of a saint. Yet, as I said above, she was comforting dying Hindu's in her hospital and telling them to pray to their Hindu god. If that's true, I would say that clearly mother Teresa wasn't saved. I'll bet that you don't believe those things, but you must, as they too are tradition. See what I mean? Tradition.

That doesn’t make any sense Dave.

So only the pagans of the first century got the benefit of the verifying gifts for the Gospel?

Sorry mate, that’s a garbage argument, to be blunt. Which is not supported by Church history. There is countless testimonies of Christians in every century of Christianity showing the Scriptural gifts being used in their times.

The conformation was for Jesus, the Apostles, and a few associates. That's what Scripture says, Cathode. It was historically new revelation. Look at the Scripture that I posted in post #7.

Dave
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
It's not tradition to hold to the Bible. The mere fact that you said "You hold to Protestant and Baptist traditions, which don’t have a history going back to the Apostles" proves that it is you who who puts extra value on tradition.

Every different interpretation of Scripture is a new tradition. Luther had one, Calvin another, Zwingli yet another, and thousands of human founded traditions based on each man’s subjective opinion of scripture.

None of these human traditions of men had anything to do with the Bible.

They all quote the Bible yet are divided on its interpretation, each has his own subjective interpretations, human traditions.

Paul’s says “ Hold to the traditions we taught you, whether by word of mouth or letter of ours “

Bible aloners directly disobey scripture here ironically, they don’t hold to oral tradition of the Apostles, they only took the Written tradition.
The Oral tradition explains the Written tradition of Scripture.

So they neither follow the scriptures or tradition.

You're the one who quoted Catholic theologians as historical evidence that the sign gifts haven't ceased, not me. They could be lying about the those gifts just as people today are.

Yeah, thousands of Early Christian liars just trying to trick Dave 1800 years later.

The Catholic ecumenical movement is unity at the expense of Truth. That's relativism. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Him. Mother Teresa was comforting dying Hindu's in her hospital and telling them to pray to their Hindu god. Sometimes I wonder who was first, the Catholic Church, or Marxism. you both do the same things.

Would you be the man to harass a dying person to bring them around to your fallible erroneous theology, distress them greatly in their extremity.

There are reservations in Hell for stunts like that.

Mother Teresa would have been comforting the dying and invincibly ignorant, too simple and uneducated to be able to grasp any doctrine.
In those cases you simply comfort them and entrust them to Jesus Mercy, which is far more understanding than you are.


I would say that clearly mother Teresa wasn't saved.

I don’t care how good and saved you think you are.

Jesus clearly warns “ Judge not lest you be judged “, you will suffer the fate you declared on others. Judgement belongs to Jesus alone.

This warning is not to judge a person’s salvation. I know it’s a favourite pass time among Baptist’s but this will have cost many Baptists at their Judgement.

At Judgement they find out that OSAS is false, they have falsely judged others salvation hundreds or thousands of times throughout their lives. They have a stack of unconfessed mortal sins, which they find out is a real and eternal problem, that they can no longer do anything about it.

I knew mother Teresa and her sisters and have seen the vast amounts of hard work and help and love and comfort she and her sisters and associates poured out and still pours out to millions.

She spent 4-5 hours in prayer on her knees every morning talking to Jesus.
She greatly loved Jesus and dedicated her entire life to Jesus.

And you declare her in Hell.

Good luck when you show up to Judgement, I hope Jesus takes into account your great ignorance.

Having known Mother Teresa and seen her love for the Lord, she is the last person I would declare damned, if anyone ever at all.

Ignore the stupid Catholic, keep doing this, find out.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
They are not infallible. Jesus is the Word, the Bible.

You are not infallible Dave, do you expect anyone to believe anything you say Dave.

We can’t believe you Dave, only the Bible is the infallible Word.

These are the great scholars and leaders of the Early Church, they are talking about events happening in their times.

Miracles, are not happening through humans agency.

Miracles are not happening through your agency, and because it isn’t, no one’s agency can perform miracles, can they Dave.

Much of your Christian Faith seems to be still on the page, more theory than experience.
If you had any real experience, you couldn’t say that.
 
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