Tongues in the Old Testament. Understanding tongues through Biblical patterns, as the Bible teaches it.

[Dave...]

You hold to Protestant and Baptist traditions, which don’t have a history going back to the Apostles.
These are all human interpretations of scripture with human founders in disagreement with each other, that had nothing to do with the Bible or the preservation and canonisation of the Bible.

You follow traditions of men.

This is relativism. In bible alonism scripture means what each man thinks it means, subjective human opinion is supreme.

Catholics have the singular objective Apostolic interpretation of Scripture, but Bible alonism has every conflicting subjective interpretation of scripture under the sun.
Don’t tell me you hold bible over tradition.

Cathode

It's not tradition to hold to the Bible. The mere fact that you said "You hold to Protestant and Baptist traditions, which don’t have a history going back to the Apostles" proves that it is you who who puts extra value on tradition. You're the one who quoted Catholic theologians as historical evidence that the sign gifts haven't ceased, not me. They could be lying about the those gifts just as people today are.

The Catholic ecumenical movement is unity at the expense of Truth. That's relativism. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Him. Mother Teresa was comforting dying Hindu's in her hospital and telling them to pray to their Hindu god. Sometimes I wonder who was first, the Catholic Church, or Marxism. you both do the same things.

 

[Dave...]

Did you even read the accounts of the gifts by the post Apostolic Early Christians? They are listing the gifts that are mentioned in Scripture.

Yes, I'm simply asking you to consider the context in Scripture.

How many hundreds more would you like me to quote on these gifts throughout Christian history.

This seems to be the problem, you haven’t actually studied Church history.

I can quote hundreds throughout Church history.

Ok, you will refuse to believe them because it’s a Catholic quoting them, but do your own research if you don’t believe me.

Yes, and 1000 years from now "they" will be saying the same thing about today's Charismatics and Pentecostals. But is it true history, or false history? It's obviously false. Let us use the "Sword" to determine that. "It is written", "it is written", "it is written." That's what Jesus taught us to do.

What's happening today isn't the sign gifts. as has been clearly shown by Scripture. And has yet to demonstrate itself as such. Only many tall tales, exaggerations, and redefining of what those gifts actually were and were for.

The Gospel is always new Revelation to those who haven’t heard it.

From a personal perspective, yes, but from a doctrinal perspective, no. When we speak of new revelation, we are speaking of it as being revealed in history, not personally.

The Church Fathers all testify to the Scriptural gifts listed being used in their day.

They are not infallible. Jesus is the Word, the Bible.

Healings, prophecy, miracles, knowledge, resurrections.

Miracles, are not happening through humans agency. There is no new revelation being given. Prophecy is just proclaiming what was already revealed. Knowledge is not new revelation. Healings, even miraculous, are not through human agency. There are no resurrections physically.

Anything good that comes from us for the Church is a gift from God. That's the way you should understand the gifts. That's the way the Apostles understood it.

Martin of Tours, Gregory the wonder worker, Benedict, Francis of Assisi, Francis of Paola, Padre Pio in our modern day. Thousands more, literally.

Read the lives of the saints of the past, look at the gifts they had, it’s been continuous from the Apostles.

Mother Teresa is a modern day version of a saint. Yet, as I said above, she was comforting dying Hindu's in her hospital and telling them to pray to their Hindu god. If that's true, I would say that clearly mother Teresa wasn't saved. I'll bet that you don't believe those things, but you must, as they too are tradition. See what I mean? Tradition.

That doesn’t make any sense Dave.

So only the pagans of the first century got the benefit of the verifying gifts for the Gospel?

Sorry mate, that’s a garbage argument, to be blunt. Which is not supported by Church history. There is countless testimonies of Christians in every century of Christianity showing the Scriptural gifts being used in their times.

The conformation was for Jesus, the Apostles, and a few associates. That's what Scripture says, Cathode. It was historically new revelation. Look at the Scripture that I posted in post #7.

Dave

 

[Cathode]

It's not tradition to hold to the Bible. The mere fact that you said "You hold to Protestant and Baptist traditions, which don’t have a history going back to the Apostles" proves that it is you who who puts extra value on tradition.

Every different interpretation of Scripture is a new tradition. Luther had one, Calvin another, Zwingli yet another, and thousands of human founded traditions based on each man’s subjective opinion of scripture.

None of these human traditions of men had anything to do with the Bible.

They all quote the Bible yet are divided on its interpretation, each has his own subjective interpretations, human traditions.

Paul’s says “ Hold to the traditions we taught you, whether by word of mouth or letter of ours “

Bible aloners directly disobey scripture here ironically, they don’t hold to oral tradition of the Apostles, they only took the Written tradition.
The Oral tradition explains the Written tradition of Scripture.

So they neither follow the scriptures or tradition.

You're the one who quoted Catholic theologians as historical evidence that the sign gifts haven't ceased, not me. They could be lying about the those gifts just as people today are.

Yeah, thousands of Early Christian liars just trying to trick Dave 1800 years later.

The Catholic ecumenical movement is unity at the expense of Truth. That's relativism. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Him. Mother Teresa was comforting dying Hindu's in her hospital and telling them to pray to their Hindu god. Sometimes I wonder who was first, the Catholic Church, or Marxism. you both do the same things.

Would you be the man to harass a dying person to bring them around to your fallible erroneous theology, distress them greatly in their extremity.

There are reservations in Hell for stunts like that.

Mother Teresa would have been comforting the dying and invincibly ignorant, too simple and uneducated to be able to grasp any doctrine.
In those cases you simply comfort them and entrust them to Jesus Mercy, which is far more understanding than you are.

I would say that clearly mother Teresa wasn't saved.

I don’t care how good and saved you think you are.

Jesus clearly warns “ Judge not lest you be judged “, you will suffer the fate you declared on others. Judgement belongs to Jesus alone.

This warning is not to judge a person’s salvation. I know it’s a favourite pass time among Baptist’s but this will have cost many Baptists at their Judgement.

At Judgement they find out that OSAS is false, they have falsely judged others salvation hundreds or thousands of times throughout their lives. They have a stack of unconfessed mortal sins, which they find out is a real and eternal problem, that they can no longer do anything about it.

I knew mother Teresa and her sisters and have seen the vast amounts of hard work and help and love and comfort she and her sisters and associates poured out and still pours out to millions.

She spent 4-5 hours in prayer on her knees every morning talking to Jesus.
She greatly loved Jesus and dedicated her entire life to Jesus.

And you declare her in Hell.

Good luck when you show up to Judgement, I hope Jesus takes into account your great ignorance.

Having known Mother Teresa and seen her love for the Lord, she is the last person I would declare damned, if anyone ever at all.

Ignore the stupid Catholic, keep doing this, find out.

 

[Cathode]

They are not infallible. Jesus is the Word, the Bible.

You are not infallible Dave, do you expect anyone to believe anything you say Dave.

We can’t believe you Dave, only the Bible is the infallible Word.

These are the great scholars and leaders of the Early Church, they are talking about events happening in their times.

Miracles, are not happening through humans agency.

Miracles are not happening through your agency, and because it isn’t, no one’s agency can perform miracles, can they Dave.

Much of your Christian Faith seems to be still on the page, more theory than experience.
If you had any real experience, you couldn’t say that.

 

[Dave...]

Every different interpretation of Scripture is a new tradition.

Hi Cathode.

I disagree. One source. One true tradition. The differences have many factors, some honest, and some not.

Paul’s says “ Hold to the traditions we taught you, whether by word of mouth or letter of ours “

Who are the "we" that he is speaking of? What does he means by tradition?

The "we' is the Apostles and the tradition is the faith once for all delivered (Jude 3).

2 Thess. 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

1 Cor. 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

Jude 3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Bible aloners directly disobey scripture here ironically, they don’t hold to oral tradition of the Apostles, they only took the Written tradition.
The Oral tradition explains the Written tradition of Scripture.

If the oral tradition is different than the written Word, then that tradition is false. The Bereans tested everything Paul said orally to the written Word of God, the OT. Even then, the written Word of God had authority to test everything, even an Apostle and what they were claiming both orally and in writing. A true Apostle will always be in line with the whole Word of God. Jesus said that He didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill (Matt. 5:17). He said that these (OT Scripture) are those which testify of Him (John 5:39).

The written Word is the sure Word. Part of being qualified to be an Apostle was to be an eye witness and directly commissioned by Jesus.

2 Peter 15:21 Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease. For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

So they neither follow the scriptures or tradition.

We have the faith once for all delivered. I don't need the traditions of men. It is written, It is written, It is written. Not, it is spoken is always tested to what is written.

Yeah, thousands of Early Christian liars just trying to trick Dave 1800 years later.

Yes, just like the millions today in Pentecostal, Charismatic, and Catholic churches do today. They may not be doing it knowingly, but they are pawns that deliver that false message for and to the world and what it lusts for.

Would you be the man to harass a dying person to bring them around to your fallible erroneous theology, distress them greatly in their extremity.

There are reservations in Hell for stunts like that.

Mother Teresa would have been comforting the dying and invincibly ignorant, too simple and uneducated to be able to grasp any doctrine.
In those cases you simply comfort them and entrust them to Jesus Mercy, which is far more understanding than you are.

I'm sorry that you think that sharing the Gospel harassment. It's too bad Teresa didn't save some of the millions that was donated to her church for those same sick people. Many of them would not have had to suffer or even die. Where did that money go? Did you know when Teresa got sick, she was flown to the country that offered the best medical care and had the best medical care that money could buy? While in her hospitals, old needles were washed in cold water and used over and over (aids patients too). Pain medication was almost never used. True doctors who offered services for free were turned down, as Teresa openly claimed that suffering was a gift for the poor. People died from common things that they should never had died from had they had the least bit of competence in care and medicine, as many who worked in her hospitals had very little if any experience. That money, most of it, never made it to the hospitals. Most of It went directly to the Vatican.

I don’t care how good and saved you think you are.

It's funny how you left half of that sentence out. I said. "If that's true, I would say that clearly mother Teresa wasn't saved."

Jesus clearly warns “ Judge not lest you be judged “, you will suffer the fate you declared on others. Judgement belongs to Jesus alone.

I don't tell dying Hindu's to pray to their gods. So nothing hypocritical there. Why would a Christian do something like that? What would be the gain from that?

This warning is not to judge a person’s salvation. I know it’s a favourite pass time among Baptist’s but this will have cost many Baptists at their Judgement.

I'm not Baptist. Do you mean like this?

Cathode said "There are reservations in Hell for stunts like that."

Touché

And you declare her in Hell.

Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Dave said ""If that's true, I would say that clearly mother Teresa wasn't saved."

Good luck when you show up to Judgement, I hope Jesus takes into account your great ignorance.

Make a stand for the Gospel, not the Pope.

Having known Mother Teresa and seen her love for the Lord, she is the last person I would declare damned, if anyone ever at all.

Ignore the stupid Catholic, keep doing this, find out.

BTW, Teresa didn't have sisters, she had one sister, and a brother. I'll assume that was a typo, since you knew her.

 

[Dave...]

You are not infallible Dave, do you expect anyone to believe anything you say Dave.

We can’t believe you Dave, only the Bible is the infallible Word.

I agree, and rest my case.

These are the great scholars and leaders of the Early Church, they are talking about events happening in their times.

...who are also not infallible.

Miracles are not happening through your agency, and because it isn’t, no one’s agency can perform miracles, can they Dave.

Do it first, then we'll talk. The fact that it isn't happening is my proof. The Bible is the standard. The gift of healing heals everyone all the time. 'Great things are happening over there' are old claims made by Pentecostals and Charismatics. The Catholic church just recently decided to cash in on the action since that movement was doing so well in the world today. But make no mistake, the claims may sound new to you, but there is nothing new under the sun. So, you'll need to forgive me if I don't believe everything I hear based solely on enthusiasm. We are commanded to test everything and hold onto what is good, meaning from God. I don't see anything miraculous happening in that movement but exaggerated claims and flat out lies. That's why miracles through human agency confirmed the messenger and the message back then. Because they were real.

Much of your Christian Faith seems to be still on the page, more theory than experience.
If you had any real experience, you couldn’t say that.

Jesus is the Word, not the Experience. You're thinking of Jimmy Hendrix, me believes. Experience is a poor indicator of truth. I have seen many people claim truth based solely on Holy Ghost goose bumps. They are almost always wrong in their understanding of the truth of Scripture.

Dave

 

[Cathode]

Hi Cathode.

I disagree. One source. One true tradition. The differences have many factors, some honest, and some not.

Who in Bible alone Protestantism is the “One true Tradition”, they all claim the bible as their source. The Bible is the source of their divisions.
Each human tradition is founded on subjective and relative human interpretations of human founders.

Who are the "we" that he is speaking of? What does he means by tradition?

The "we' is the Apostles and the tradition is the faith once for all delivered (Jude 3).

2 Thess. 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

1 Cor. 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

Jude 3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

How was the faith delivered ? Was it just in writing alone ? No.

The Faith was once and for all delivered by preaching and writing.

That’s why Paul says to hold to the Apostolic oral tradition and Written tradition together. Which is what Catholics have always done, and bible aloners departed from this scripture and ended up scattering into thousands of human interpreted traditions.

Protestants taking the Bible alone is in defiance of the Bible itself, rejecting the Apostolic oral tradition which explains the Written tradition, they replaced Apostolic oral tradition with their own human traditions, subjectively interpreting the scriptures for themselves.

This is the great mystery solved about why Bible alone Protestantism scattered into thousands of conflicting human traditions founded on so many subjective human interpretations of Scripture.

If the oral tradition is different than the written Word, then that tradition is false.

Apostolic oral tradition explains the Apostolic Written tradition. The Spoken Word of God compliments the Written Word of God.

Bible alone Protestantism is like a class that has a textbook without a teacher, they have rejected the ancient Apostolic college of teachers tradition that penned the textbook and each student interprets the text book for himself, coming up with every subjective and relative interpretation of Scripture, novel doctrines. Truth is not important to them, their opinions are supreme.

Thus in Protestantism the Bible is no longer the Sacred Word of God, but a legal document to defend one’s opinion from. The Bible itself became the object of disputation to justify why each man and his tradition has broken unity from the other. The Bible is the source of Protestantisms disunity.

The Bible brings a plague and strife on those that illegitimately possess it. Just as the Ark of the Covenant brought strife on those that wrongfully possessed it, it had to be sent back to the legitimate owners.

The Bible is the Catholic Church’s Book and only in Her hands is it rightly interpreted.

The written Word is the sure Word.

So is the Spoken Word of God in Apostolic Oral Tradition. It endures forever.


“For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[c]

And this is the word that was preached to you.“1 Peter 1

What was preached/ spoken by The Spirit, lives by The Spirit in all those that hear.

So the word of God is not complete in just the written form, it must be accompanied by the Spoken Word as well.

That’s why Paul says hold to both the oral and written traditions of the Apostles.

 

[Cathode]

I agree, and rest my case.



...who are also not infallible.

My point was, it doesn’t have to be infallible scripture to be true none the less. These were eyewitnesses of their day, testifying to the gifts being in operation.

We give people life and death sentences today on the weight of eyewitness testimony.
And add the fact that these weren’t ordinary witnesses but famous Bishops and Martyrs who testified with their blood, and preserved the scriptures which later became the bible.

 

[Cathode]

I'm sorry that you think that sharing the Gospel harassment.

Yes, in some cases it is, especially the way you’re thinking.

Sometimes the best way to share the Gospel is to simply love people, kinda central to the Christian message.

Mother Teresa in just one account among thousands, took a man who was dying in the street in 45 C heat and humidity. Brought him into the shade and cooled him down washing him and making him comfortable before he died in her arms. He received the Gospel fully, preached without words.

Would it be the appropriate time to give the dying man an all American bible thumping hard sell? No.

By Mother Teresa that man died in Jesus arms.

It's funny how you left half of that sentence out. I said. "If that's true, I would say that clearly mother Teresa wasn't saved."

You are fully asserting her evil is true, so yes you are judging her salvation specifically and by name, so saying “ If it’s true “ does not get you off the hook mate. You need to repent of this.

I don't tell dying Hindu's to pray to their gods. So nothing hypocritical there. Why would a Christian do something like that? What would be the gain from that?

These people are invincibly ignorant and totally uneducated on their best day mostly, let alone when they are delirious and dying. You would do great harm by distressing and confusing their last moments.

“Preach the Gospel at all times and sometimes use words”

Simple people know Jesus by Love not learning.

The greatest sermon we can give, is to let Jesus Love through us.

Cathode said "There are reservations in Hell for stunts like that."

Touché

You fully asserted evil of Mother Teresa specifically by name, then suggested her damnation.
You need to retract that as publicly you asserted it, and repent of it.

BTW, Teresa didn't have sisters, she had one sister, and a brother. I'll assume that was a typo, since you knew her.

I assume you are ignorant of the fact that nuns are called sisters. We called them Sisters of Charity.

Mother Teresa founded the Missionaries of Charity, Missionaries of Love, this was the outgrowth of her love for Jesus.

With no money and no help, she powerfully felt the call by Jesus to love and minister to the poorest of the poor, "the hungry, the naked, the homeless, the crippled, the blind, the lepers, all those people who feel unwanted, unloved, uncared for throughout society, people that have become a burden to the society and are shunned by everyone" Mother Teresa.

"Each one of them is Jesus in disguise".