Tongues

[Walguy]

Originally posted by Frank:
Walguy:
I agree that spiritual gifts are no longer available. Acts 8:17,18. I also know the word perfect in the Greek is NEUTER GENDER and, therefore, cannot be Jesus, who was an aner or man. It cannot be heaven as Eph. 4:12-18 will not allow for such an interpretation.
Therefore, by implication the perfect must be the written completed will of God. The implication is that men would be completed by the scriptures. II Tim. 3:16,17.

I strongly disagree that Spiritual gifts are no longer available. Only SOME of the gifts have ceased (e.g. tongues, healing, miracles, casting out demons). Others were modified after the early years of the Church (Such as prophecy no longer being revelatory once the Bible was complete). Many others still function as they have from the beginning. Spiritual gifts vary according to purpose. The purpose of the early sign gifts ran its course, so those gifts ceased. The purposes of the other gifts remain, so the gifts remain as well. It's really not that hard to understand if a person's mind isn't blinded by the desire to have their own little 'love fest' with the HS, in total violation of what Spiritual gifts are supposed to be for, which is to minister to others.
I agree that 'the perfect' does NOT refer to Jesus. It refers to the 'new Heaven and new earth' of Revelation 21:1, God's eternal Kingdom. That is the point when the purpose of prophecy and knowledge will no longer exist, and those gifts will then end.
Btw, those of you who argue that the completion of Scripture ended tongues, prophecy and knowledge are in the same boat with the tongues speakers when it comes to I Corinthians 13. You too are lumping together gifts that the text clearly and specifically separates. The tongues speakers are blinded by their emotional experiences, but I can't see any reason why you guys shouldn't be able to comprehend that the passage clearly indicates two different ending points for different gifts. If you just concentrate a little harder, I'm sure you'll get it.

 

[Singer]

Walguy........ I strongly disagree that Spiritual gifts are no longer available.
DDK...............was quoted as saying all gifts have ceased except love
Brian.............agrees with Walguy

Walguy...........I agree that 'the perfect' does NOT refer to Jesus. It refers to the 'new Heaven and new earth' of Revelation 21:1, God's eternal Kingdom..
DHK................was quoted as saying that the "perfect" is the word of God (Bible)

(Singer)
Where's your unity guys..?
Where's the result of your specific and revealing bible study?
The bible has been around for centuries and you claim to have it figured out according to your research , but there is no uniformity in your answers.

Tell me...........
Are we, as believers, a part of the ''body of Christ'' today as depicted in 1 Cor 12:27 ?

 

[Briguy]

First of all, I must apologise to Carol, Singer, hrhema. My post about not being educated came across as demeaning. I did not realize that until I re-read it this morning. I am sorry it sounded the way it did. I was trying to say if Greek isn't your thing and you don't feel like you want to argue language interpretation I was and am comfortable with that. I hope that was better, but if it still didn't sound nice, just know my intentions are well meant.

Singer, you said many things in your past few posts that I agree with. I would never want to take the emotion out of my Christian faith and replace it with Bible study only. Some do that and they can become very smart but not used much by the Holy Spirit to reach others. On the other hand, experience cannot take the place of clear Bible teaching. I know that leads to a problem because of different conclusions. Tougues however, we have unity with. All of the people who have posted (Me, Walguy, Frank, DHK, others?) all say tongues ended with the early church. We all agree the Biblical gift of tongues has ended via clear Bible teaching. The "perfect" is a different issue and it bothers me that DHK and I disagree because I agree with him on just about all other points in the whole Bible. Because we differ on the "perfect" we differ on whether some gifts are around. All in all we both believe that God equips the local assemblies. I and Walguy believe by giving people the right gift for the assembly they will be involved with and that they can use in the future. DHK believes that God brings the right people to assemblies and uses their abilities and enhances their abilities so the local assembly is complete. These two views are very close indeed if you really think about it. Singer, like you I pray daily and I ask God what he would have me do. I also try to read the Bible and learn from others and from this board when I can.

Time, Walguy answered for me so you see wee both believe that the non-miraculous gifts are for today and will stay until the "Kingdom" on earth is established.

DHK, Walguy posed a question for you. I am curious as to your response. (the one about K,P, and T ending at the same time - which is a problem from your viewpoint of the "gifts").

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[time like this]

DHK/Walguy/Brig

After meditating on the things you have said I bacame concerned in a few areas. If you say that God no longer reveals himself to man thru vision which the Holy Spirit is the vehicle. That when Pastors say they have a vision for the church it has not come from revelation thru prayer because God does not speak to them. To throw that out means ecerybody that says God speaks to them thru his spirit is a liar and has no part in God. Someone stated that their where no miracles after 70A.D.. If this is so Constantine would have been in error when he said that he had a vision/revelation to use the sign of the cross for Christians. If this were so every church with this symbol would be out of order? When you throw out the workings of the Holy Spirit there are alot of things that go with it. If men were inspired by the Spirit to write the word cannot a man/woman be inspired thru the spirit for understanding of the same? If you only have an academic aproach to God's word you will always miss the Spirit of it. This was the problem O.T. Isreal. When you pray do you expect a reponse from God? If it is answewred is it not an experience of the Spirit of God. Have you ever read God's word and had comfort in a situation. These gifts that you state are nolonger working were to be a witeness to God thru us Acts1:8. You are correct we should study to show ourselves appoved, however as many as are led by the spirit they shall be sons of God. Both are needed this is not an either or situation. No I do not practice the gift of tongues. Am I a healer no. Have I continued in prayer and and family members been delivered to God's glory.Yes. I beleive we still can scast out demons because we have more power than they do. Have I yes. Do I have a ministry of no. An experience does not mean some one is deceived. JW's beleive alot of things you proclaim here as biblical truths, the comparisons do not make you ungodly as they don't make singer. ann no I do not support JW teachings.Can anbody show prove that the gifts have passed and not that they will.

God Bless us all

I am not attacking anybody so please accept post in love

 

[Frank]

Walguy:
You are stuck with dealing with the inconsistencies of Eph. 4:12-18 and the kingdom being the perfect. I believe if you study the totality of the evidence you will get it.

 

[Briguy]

Time, Thanks for your post and no it was not offensive. You are making a crucial mistake which many people make. First the Holy Spirit is as active now as ever, convicting people, leading Christians to actions and helping with understanding. God still heals today, by his choosing. We pray and He heals or doesn't according to His will. What you are mistaken in is the use of spiritual gifts. They are given to us and we use them as WE CHOOSE. They were and are a GIFT from God. Can you imagine getting a car for a present from your neighbor but you could only use it when he said you could? It would not be a gift then, it would still be the neighbors car for he would control it. With spiritual gifts WE are in control. We decide when and where to use them. This is why I know healings and miracles and tongues and interpretations (as given as spiritual gifts) are gone because no one can do what those in the early church did. Those who healed, healed All who came to them,etc... People were raised from the dead, etc... Tongue speakers could use a foreign language at will and interpreters could interpret foreign languages at will. These things are no longer done and therefore practically we can see those gifts are done. Other gifts remain and God uses them to equip the modern assemblies.

The Holy Spirit is the same and He reveals to us what we should be doing in service to God. we don't always listen however but that is a different topic. Revelations as "brand new truths" are not needed because the Bible is a complete work. Hope that helps explain my position somewhat.

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

[Southeastbaptist]

Hearty amen to that Briguy!!!

I believe in the early speaking in tongues what i don't want to believe is the present tongues. It is very far from the early church practice. In the early church, the believers spake with language of other nation whereas today it is just a mere gibberish and repetition of similar words.
I have also attended charismatic churches and the service is full of confusion. Everybody is speaking in "tongues" whereas in the Bible the apostle Paul forbid the speaking of tongue in the church if there is no interpreter and only limited number at a time should speak.

The tongues speaker also are mostly women, whereas in the Bible, the women should learn to keep in silence in the church. And no woman should lead in church as what the apostle Paul is teaching to Timothy.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Briguy:
First of all, I must apologise to Carol, Singer, hrhema. My post about not being educated came across as demeaning. I did not realize that until I re-read it this morning. I am sorry it sounded the way it did.

In Christian Love,
Brian

Apology accepted Brian, at least on my part.

I should have known that the way you came across wasn't the usual you. Stay the sweet person that you are and keep searching! Still online friends??

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Walguy:

Btw, those of you who argue that the completion of Scripture ended tongues, prophecy and knowledge are in the same boat with the tongues speakers when it comes to I Corinthians 13. You too are lumping together gifts that the text clearly and specifically separates. The tongues speakers are blinded by their emotional experiences, but I can't see any reason why you guys shouldn't be able to comprehend that the passage clearly indicates two different ending points for different gifts. If you just concentrate a little harder, I'm sure you'll get it.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--Verse one teaches that in the Old Testament God used various ways to speak to the nation of Israel through the prophets. How did He speak to the prophets: visions, dreams, audibly, through prophecies, through revelatory words of knowledge, etc.
How does God speak to us today? Verse two teaches us that God speaks to us through His Son. His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, is revealed to us in His Word. We have no other source but the Word of God. We have the completed perfected Word of God that is inspired and preserved for us to this day. To say that prophecy and revelatory knowledge are valid for today is going directly contrary to the Word of God. Every time one would give a revelation or a prophecy would be adding to the Word of God. This is heretical and unscriptural. We have the Word of God. It is complete. Adding to the Word of God is of serious consequence. It is not for today. These gifts were only for the time when the Word of God was not complete.
DHK

 

[Briguy]

Hi Carol, Thanks for accepting my apology. Yes, we are still online friends

I have seen a lot of rudeness on this board in my time and I don't ever want to be thought of like that.

DHK, Hope you are well this fine day. Like I said before I hate to disagree with you because we agree everywhere else. Anyway, the current gift of prophecy is not revelatory. Walguy and I agree that new revelation is not needed and not Biblical. Seeing that prophecy in root word form just means "to speak before" (in front of) we believe the gift is given now to build up the "body". In the early church as the gospel was first being spread and their was no Bible, God used the gift to bring New revelations as well as to build the "body". Now, like I said, it is a gift God gives to build up and I suppose to spread the Gospel as well. You may even have this gift DHK. Walguy and I do not.

Thanks to the Baptist person above who gave me the hearty Amen. You made good points as well.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Frank]

Briguy:

I read your post to Dhk. I hope you do not mind if I make a comment that may help in the matter of spiritual gifts. The spiritual gifts mentioned, in context, refer to the miraculous gifts of the spirit, even the one of prophesy.

However, this does not imply I do not accept the ability and responsibility God has placed on us as his children. In fact, Paul said woe unto me if I preach not the gospel of Christ. Some men do it better than others.

The interpretation of I Cor. 13 must be in the context of the miraculous gifts. I hope this helps.

 

[DHK]

Briguy,
I also appreciate your input and agreement in most things. As Frank pointed out, however, all the spiritual gifts of that time were of a supernatural nature, even the gift of helps. If it was not supernatural why would it be called a gift, and why would it even be mentioned. It is but our duty to help others, a command of Christ, and something that even the unsaved do. It does not take a gift or even a special talent to help others. But in the first century, some were given a supernatural gift of helping others. I don't completely understand the nature of this gift, but it was supernatural in its nature. It was a gift given to some so that they could help others in ways that others could not. All the gifts were supernatural.

These three gifts: prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, were all supernatural gifts. To relegate prophecy down to mere preaching is to do injustice to the context of the passage. It is a supernatural gift that primarily involved foretelling what would be in the Bible (New Testament), as they did not have the completed Word of God. It was by nature both predictive and edifying. That which was prophesied, for the most part, became the Word of God. That which did not become the Word of God always harmonized with it. The Spirit does not contradict itself. These gifts were given to make up for the revelation they did not have. When the revelation was complete, there was no more use for these gifts. We have a complete revelation. These supernatural miraculous gifts are not in operation today. I know of no one who can demonstrate these gifts as the early believers did.
DHK

 

[time like this]

Briguy
I like the way you disagree. It is always best to defend our positions from scripture and experiences we've had. The way we grow is not to attack. I like that about your posts. I still differ with you on a few points but I like the spirit in which we disagree.
I have a response for your last post coming when I have [time]

God Bless

 

[Walguy]

DHK and Frank:
ALL the Spiritual gifts are 'supernatural' in nature BY DEFINITION. Some are just more OBVIOUSLY supernatural than others. The REALLY obviously supernatural ones were given to the early Church to authenticate the message they were bringing, before the completed Bible was available. That we agree on. But what about the other gifts mentioned in I Corinthians 13?
Although there were no chapter breaks in the original Greek, the section designated as chapter 13 is a literary unit. The reason Paul uses the gifts of tongues, knowledge and prophecy in the later part of this unit is because they are three of the things he began his brief sub-discussion with:
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge...but have not love, I am nothing." (I Cor 13:1-2) After starting with the point that all Spiritual gifts are empty without love, Paul briefly comments about the various aspects of genuine AGAPE love, then returns to his original point about love and Spiritual gifts. So the gifts he mentions in verses 8 and 9 are the same ones he mentioned in verses 1 and 2. What did he mean?
Tongues was the ability to speak in a foreign language unknown to himself, but known to someone else in the vicinity. Prophecy is the ability to speak in front of an audience in a way that reaches them with God's message. Knowledge is the ability to understand the fine points of God's truth.
As Paul spoke of these gifts in verses 1-2, he deliberately used exaggeration to say that even in the most extreme exercise of such gifts, beyond what had ever actually happened, they are still nothing without love. Thus, even if one speaks in the tongues of men AND ANGELS, but doesn't have love...nothing. Even if one understands ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (equally impossible as speaking in the tongues of angels)...nothing.
So the gifts he is speaking of in verses 8 and 9 are not necessarily all showy gifts, although, by nature, they are all supernatural.
Do certain people today still have the ability to speak in front of an audience in such a way as to powerfully reach people with God's message? Of course there are. It is not provable that something supernatural is going on there, of course, but most gifts have always been like that.
Are there still people today who have a special ability to understand the fine points of God's truth? I'll give you a clue: what you're reading was written by one. That's my gift, which is why I have to chuckle when someone tells me that my gift doesn't exist. In fact, people with the gift of prophecy usually utilize writings by people with the gift of knowledge (and others by those with the separate gift of wisdom) in preparing for their speeches. Just because OBVIOUSLY supernatural things aren't going on doesn't mean there isn't an underlying supernatural power behind all these gifts.
Prophecy and knowledge are still important parts of God's plan for his people. When will that change? When everyone left already knows everything, because all the limits of sinfulness and mortality are gone. When will that be? Only when the present universe has been replaced by God's eternal kingdom, as described in Rev 21:1. Until that point there will still be mortal beings who don't know everything, people whose lives will be enhanced by those gifts.
The Bible alone is not sufficient. It is complete in CONTENT, but it still needs to be taught to people by other people. In order to assist in that ongoing exercise, God gives different supernaturally enhanced abilities to different believers to be used to bring understanding of the Bible to other people in different ways. That's what the Spiritual gifts are all about: God helping us to better serve others (and this is still the main argument against modern tongues, btw, which is a selfish use of an alleged 'gift' for one's own 'edification'). There were and are different specific purposes for different specific gifts. The purpose for the sign gifts ceased, so the gifts ceased. The purposes for knowledge and prophecy are alive and well, and so are those gifts. Which is why that point of view is in complete harmony with Paul's use of words in I Corinthinans 13, and the other two views being expressed in this thread are not.

Frank: could you elaborate on your point about Eph 4:12-18? I don't know exactly what you're referring to, but I'll address it as soon as I do.

 

[Singer]

(Briguy to DHK)

Like I said before I hate to disagree with you
because we agree everywhere else. Anyway, the current gift of prophecy is not revelatory.

I'm glad that humankind does not have to wait for all us scholars to get everything
figured out before we can be right with God. Isn't it nice that salvation is a gift that
is awarded at the beginning of class and then we spend the rest of our lives reading
the book. If it were the other way around, it doesn't look like anyone would make it
because there are no pat answers. And besides, it would be salvation by works too.

(Time like this to Brian)

It is always best to defend our positions from scripture and
experiences we've had.

My experience with tongues has NOT been widely accepted. Reasons given have
centered on the fact that it was just an emotional experience. Do read the first few
posts of this thread back on page 1 if you haven't already.That was the purpose
of this thread to hash it out I guess. I'm not in a position to compromise however.
Scripture doesn't prove me wrong..........but the way some scholars translate scripture,
I am wrong in their eyes.

In the early church, the believers spake with language of other nation whereas
today it is just a mere gibberish and repetition of similar words.

Onlookers thought the togues speakers at Pentecost were drunk. That's how it
appeared to them....they may also have called it gibberish and repetition. Chinese
and Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese etc sounds like gibberish to me. What I spoke
probably would have sounded like gibberish to anyone listening. To me it was a
smoothe, peaceful and unstoppable blessing that I cannot describe properly.....
and it appeared at the height of a time of prayer when I was alone and seeking
wisdom from God.

I'm told on here that I should have been seeking answers from the bible and not
through prayer. (Which I don't accept either) I had read my bible for hours prior
to that experience and had compared verses on the subject for over two years in
advance of that night.

My advice: Don't pray, as it could happen to you

Although I have to say that whosoever believes can receive it and biblically speaking,
doubters will receive nothing from God. It's the doubter's loss as usual.

 

[Don]

(wooo eee ooooo aaaaaaahhhhhhh)

The Thread that Would Not Die!

(da dum dum da dum)

Brought to you in 3D living color!

(No, I have nothing worthwhile to add. I've said everything I have to say about this subject, and got tired of being ignored about a few of the things I had to say)

 

[Singer]

Don:

C'mon be a sport...hang in here.
I've found that one is not necessarily ignored on these boards.
Myself, I've read, enjoyed, learned and still not responded. Should have
I guess.

Did I just say....."learned" ???

)

Singer

 

[Walguy]

Originally posted by Singer:
Onlookers thought the tongues speakers at Pentecost were drunk. That's how it
appeared to them....they may also have called it gibberish and repetition. Chinese
and Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese etc sounds like gibberish to me. What I spoke
probably would have sounded like gibberish to anyone listening.

Although I have to say that whosoever believes can receive it and biblically speaking,
doubters will receive nothing from God. It's the doubter's loss as usual.

The onlookers at Pentecost did NOT call what was happening 'gibberish!' They said, "And how is it that we hear, each of us, in his own native language?" (Acts 2:8) The 'tongues' on Pentecost were real languages spoken to people present who could understand them.
What real language were you speaking, and who were you speaking it to who could understand it? If you were alone and don't know what language it was, you can't claim a parallel between your experience and Pentecost. The two are 180 degrees apart.
The truth is that what you spoke sounded like gibberish because it WAS gibberish. If that seems harsh I'm sorry, but the truth can be that way sometimes. I believe that SOMETHING happened to you, but the Bible tells me clearly that whatever it was it was NOT of God.
Also, are you implying that because I 'doubt' tongues I have received 'nothing' from God? I wish you could be inside me for a few seconds and feel the pure joy I'm experiencing these days. God gives me SO much all the time! I think it's a bit demeaning to both God and me to suggest that because I haven't babbled like you have I must not feel God's presence in my life the way you do. If that's not what you meant to say, you can amend your comments, but it does seem to be what you implied.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Walguy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Singer:
Onlookers thought the tongues speakers at Pentecost were drunk. That's how it
appeared to them....they may also have called it gibberish and repetition. Chinese
and Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese etc sounds like gibberish to me. What I spoke
probably would have sounded like gibberish to anyone listening.

Although I have to say that whosoever believes can receive it and biblically speaking,
doubters will receive nothing from God. It's the doubter's loss as usual.

The onlookers at Pentecost did NOT call what was happening 'gibberish!' They said, "And how is it that we hear, each of us, in his own native language?" (Acts 2:8) The 'tongues' on Pentecost were real languages spoken to people present who could understand them.
What real language were you speaking, and who were you speaking it to who could understand it? If you were alone and don't know what language it was, you can't claim a parallel between your experience and Pentecost. The two are 180 degrees apart.
The truth is that what you spoke sounded like gibberish because it WAS gibberish. If that seems harsh I'm sorry, but the truth can be that way sometimes. I believe that SOMETHING happened to you, but the Bible tells me clearly that whatever it was it was NOT of God.
Also, are you implying that because I 'doubt' tongues I have received 'nothing' from God? I wish you could be inside me for a few seconds and feel the pure joy I'm experiencing these days. God gives me SO much all the time! I think it's a bit demeaning to both God and me to suggest that because I haven't babbled like you have I must not feel God's presence in my life the way you do. If that's not what you meant to say, you can amend your comments, but it does seem to be what you implied. </font>[/QUOTE]Singer, since this is addressed to you, read the eighth chapter of Acts before you reply.

I love where it says, in verse eight, "And there was "great joy" in that city.

Also, in verse sixteen where it says, "(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Singer, see where Walguy has the joy, but not complete....yet?

Sorry, I guess I couldn't resist.

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Walguy:
Prophecy and knowledge are still important parts of God's plan for his people. When will that change? When everyone left already knows everything, because all the limits of sinfulness and mortality are gone. When will that be? Only when the present universe has been replaced by God's eternal kingdom, as described in Rev 21:1. Until that point there will still be mortal beings who don't know everything, people whose lives will be enhanced by those gifts.

Your argument falls apart here. The gift of knowledge had nothing to do with common knowledge. It was special revelatory knowledge given supernaturally for the purpose of revealing to God's people at that time the revelation that we now have in the New Testament in our time.

When everyone left already knows everything.
Unless you are a Mormon this will never happen. Only God is omniscient. To claim that attribute is akin to claiming Godhood. We will still be learning in Heaven. I look forward to sitting at the feet of Jesus and learning. I will never, in all eternity, know everything. If I did, then I too would be God.

This is a good reason to see why this gift is both supernatural and temporary. It is not speaking of common knowledge, but revelatory knowledge. If man had that gift today, his exercise of it would be adding to the Word of God, something that is expressly forbidden. Since the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, we know that this is not of God today. God does not give such gifts today. They go directly contrary to His will. And His gifts, and their nature do not change.

Please avoid being like the Charismatic. The Charismatic changes the use of the gift of tongues from a gift of speaking a real language unknown to him, but known by another, to some kind of gibberish. You seem to do the same thing with prophecy and knowledge. You change the genuine gift of prophecy used for revelatory and predictive edification, to preaching. You change the nature of revelatory knowledge that was a gift used to give the revelation that we have in the New Testament now to those early believers, to simple common knowledge. You change the original intent and meanings of these supernatural spiritual gifts, much like the Charismatics do. If the usage and meaning of the gift is the same now as it was in the first century, there is no way that these gifts are in operation today, as they were in the first century.
DHK