Tongues

None of you tongues speakers have specifically answered the point Briguy raised about the different verbs and verb forms in I Cor 13. He got this information from me (his big bro), and I have posted it in earlier threads on this board. It seems a refresher course is in order at this time:

Now let's look carefully at the entire three verse passage:

In verse 8, three gifts are mentioned. One of them, tongues, is referred to differently from the other two, specifically indicating a DIFFERENT MANNER OF ENDING from the other two gifts (see above). When we get to verse 9, that different gift is no longer mentioned. Only the two gifts whose endings are referred to in an IDENTICAL manner in verse 8 appear in verses 9 and 10. This clearly indicates 1) that the manner of ending discussed in verses 9-10 for prophecy and knowledge does NOT apply to the gift of tongues; and 2) that the gift of tongues will end BEFORE the other two gifts.
Paul wrote these words carefully, employing different terms and different verb forms to describe the different ending points of the gifts. I Corinthians 13 not only does NOT teach that tongues will only end when the 'perfect' comes, it specifically teaches a DIFFERENT ending point for tongues than for knowledge and prophecy.
I hereby lovingly challenge any of the tongues speakers here to respond to this post POINT BY POINT, rather than just dealing in generalities that can be made to fit either side of the argument. Explain how the specific use by Paul of the different verb forms and tenses, and the fact that tongues is mentioned in verse 8 but NOT in verse 9, supports your position instead of mine. Explain why Paul went to so much trouble to distinguish tongues from prophecy and knowledge if they are all part of the same group of gifts with the same ending point. I contend that if your position were true, this passage would not have been written in such a precise way. I challenge anyone who disputes that to show me how I am wrong through a SPECIFIC anaylsis of the fine points of this text.

 

Thanks Brother, Brother Walguy, Very well said.

Singer, Carol, and H, If you do not feel educated enough to answer the question that both I and Walguy asked I can accept that. To purposely not answer the question just does not seem right on a board where we all are trying to "grow" and "learn" together. In this case the text is clear and something really cool is going on as we could see from what Walguy wrote. I think we can disagree and still discuss the finer points of the text without feelings being hurt. I never want anyone to feel like I am putting them down because of Tongues, I just look at the text, like Walguy and see a clear picture and so I want to share that with everyone.

Looking forward to your answers.

Hi Frank, thanks for the post. I hope you are well and that your TV show is reaching many with the gospel. Hey Frank, do you realize that you and DHK agree on what the "perfect" is! You two do not agree real often as I remember anyway.

Frank, I see you did not deal with the "face to face" issue that comes to play when dealing with the "perfect". I tend to believe face to face means what it says. Oh what a day that will be!!

In Christ our Lord,
Brian

 

Hi Singer, What you experienced was powerful, I can see that. I appreciate your passion for our Lord, never lose that as it is the driving forcr by which we share Christ with others, by actions and/or words.

You said to ask the Master, or maybe that you asked the Master, anyway for all of our questions God has answered and put them in book form. Now we look in the Book of God's Truths, the Bible and find our answers.

Singer, in life we are called to weigh the evidence and then draw conclusions. Right now I have what the Bible says verses what you have experienced, one time 25 years ago. I must believe God's Word and conclude that your experience was something else other then Biblical tongues. The Bible holds much more weight then any well intentioned experiences that people have had.

Back to the question, Paul wrote what he wrote for a reason. I want to see what you or Carol or any other tongue speaker can come up with in terms of reasons for Pauls words.

Take care, In Christ,
Brian

P.S. I am no scholar by a long shot. Walguy is more of a deep study guy then I am, but even he has no theology degree.

 

Hrhema:

Apostle means sent out. However, in the context in which it is written, it was a term used to designate the 12. If not, then the list is redundant. This reasoning is foolishness.

Furthermore, God said that the apostles in the specific sense of being chosen by Christ would confirm their word with signs. Mark 16:17-20. The test of authenticity for an apostle was to preform miracles. II Cor. 12:12. Some claimed to be just that in the time of the apostles, and they were tried and found to be LIARS. Rev. 2:2. Question : What was used to determine they were liars?

The same may be used today to expose these modern day religious charlatans. They should PROVE they are inspired. I Thes. 5:21. If they had what the apostles had, then, they can do what they did. However, to this date, no one in the presence of an unbeliever perform biblical miracle. the Bible teaches me this is not going to happen. John 20:30,31, II Cor. 12;12, Acts 8:17,18.

God said to PROVE ALL THINGS. Your assertion is false because it has no proof. I Thes. 5:21

 

Walguy:
I agree that spiritual gifts are no longer available. Acts 8:17,18. I also know the word perfect in the Greek is NEUTER GENDER and, therefore, cannot be Jesus, who was an aner or man. It cannot be heaven as Eph. 4:12-18 will not allow for such an interpretation.

Therefore, by implication the perfect must be the written completed will of God. The implication is that men would be completed by the scriptures. II Tim. 3:16,17.

 

Again these are personal intrepretations of what these scriptures meant. Just because a word is used different one way does not fully indicate what the writer may have been trying to say.
Anyone can twist Greek or Hebrew or any other language to meet what they believe just like they do in English.

Let us look at this scripture again:

"Charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies they shall fail, whether there be tongues they shall cease, whether they be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

For we KNOW in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Paul said we know in part (knowledge) we prophesy in part but he did not say anything about speaking in tongues in part. He said when that which is perfect comes then that which is in part shall vanish away. What do he say was in part?
Knowledge and prophecy.

Isn't it amazing that Paul himself did not agree with cessasionists.

 

Briguy:
The face to face phrase denotes the abiliity to see the whole truth or picture. If the Bible is not under consideration as the perfect, then we can not know the truth and it cannot set us free. John 8:32. This is exactly the argument continuing revelationist, by implication, must accept.
However, when men look into the word of God,the perfect law of liberty James 1:25, he has a face to face meeting with eternal truth and sees himnself as he truly is in a spirtual sense.

Thanks for asking about the work. We have had two to obey the gospel in the past two weeks.

 

Still holding the fort, are you hrema? I have been gone for about a week and thus have not been able to answer some of your objections. On the whole however, I find your conclusions illogical, non sequitor, and based on experience rather than the Word of God. It seems you have a disdain for studying the Word of God. Such statements as "anyone can twist Scripture with Hebrew and Greek," would lead one to believe that. Studying the Bible, especially in the original languages, is a good thing, not a bad thing.

As far as your statement: "It has been supposition for anyone to say that the IT is the Bible," is concerned: my position is not suppositional at all. It is a theological position based on:
1. the Greek.
2. the context of the passage.
3. history.

Your interpretation of the passage seems to be based on experience alone. It goes like this: "I've spoken in tongues, therefore don't judge me for my experience because I know I am right." That is one of the great deceptions of Satan. He knows the Word of God better than you do.
The Bible did not exist when Paul made this declaration. Paul had not even written all his letters yet to other churches. The writings of Peter and John and Jude and James etc had not been written. For individuals to claim this makes them look immature and desperate to prove something that has not happened as of yet.

Your quite right. Charismatics in general rely on their experience rather than the Word of God. Whether it be tongues, a prophecy, a Word of knowledge, visions, dreams, whatever their experience may be, they rely on it more than the Bible. Many of their experiences run directly contrary to the Word of God. Many testify that they have been to Heaven and have seen God, though the Bible says no man has seen God and lived. Some have testified that they have been to Hell and back. Some have outlandish prophecies and conversations with Jesus. Maybe they eat pickles and sour cream before going to bed, and wake up in some kind of altered state of consciousness. Who knows? But it is not of God, that it is what I know. I know it is not of God because of what the Bible teaches. The Bible is my foundation not experience. Everything I believe is tested by the Word of God. If it is not according to the Word of God, then it is not of God.

Isa.8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Why? Because...

because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
(1Pet.5:8)
That is why. Satan seeks to deceive you, as well as many others, and lead you astray into a false system belief. He seeks to confuse you that you may not have the truth. He seeks to make you an ineffective witness for Christ. He would like nothing more than for you to spread falsity and error instead of truth. You (from the age of 14) have most of your life to live. Satan got to you at a young and tender age, at an age where you would be abel to deceive many people for Satan's purposes. The Charismatic movement (tongues-speaking movement) is the one movement being used in conjunction with the ecumenical movement and will be instrumental in forming the great one world church of the anti-christ in the end times. It is not being used for good, but rather for evil--uniting all denominations, and world religions (Hindus, Voo-doo worshippers, Mormons, etc.) together. It will be a tool of the anti-christ. It is not from God.
DHK

 

Dear Singer,

If I was you, I would give up trying to convince anyone your experience was from God. It isn't doing any good, because noone seems to believe you, and at the same time it is probably raising your ire! (And theirs! lol)

The thing is, YOU know what happened, and it has created a deeper faith in Christ for you personally, and thats all that really matters.


Look at Jonah: I've heard now, (by an athiest) that it is physically/scientifically impossible for a human to live in a whales belly (or any "big fish") for 3 days and survive.
So, if he had tried to tell folks about it, would they have believed him?

Not only was it physically unable to happen, but many well meaning folks would work out many well meaning theories why God would never do this.

(They believe it now of course, 'cos it's in the Bible, and your experience isn't!! LOL)

However, I hope you get my point here .... if what happened helped deepen your faith and trust in God, then thats wonderful. If you listen too much to opposing, well thought out folks thoughts, it will make you mad (would make me mad, anyway!) and they will perhaps worst of all, affect your faith.

Better a millstone... and all that.

You love God. You take every opportunity to witness. You pray to Him. You have a relationship with Him.

Leave it at that.

These guys are never gonna believe you ... Page 31 and they still don't!!

 

I see here a disdain for serious Bible study. It is more like, "Any one can avoid using the Greek and Hebrew to find out what the true sense of the passage really is." That is really what is bothering you, isn't it? As far as personal interpretations are concerned, people will have some differences, but they will agree on some basics. I may disagree with Briguy on some things but we both arrive at the same conclusion that tongues have ceased.

You have stated your opinion which you are entitled to. Simply put, it is wrong. To say that Paul did not agree with himself or with what he wrote is a bit ludicrous, to say the least. It was Paul who wrote, "Tongues shall cease." He was a cessationist, now, wasn't he?

Consider once more the context. The context is given in chapter 12:1,

12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
--Paul then discusses in the next three chapters spiritual gifts. Even chapter 13, the chapter on love, is set in the context of spiritual gifts. The spiritual gifts are listed twice in chapter 12. One list is given in verse 28. Let's look at it:

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
--Notice here that Paul puts these gifts in order of importance. "First, secondarily, thirdly, after that..." And at the very bottom of the list, the least important of all the gifts, is tongues. Tongues was the least important of all the gifts. Isn't it ironic that most churches today consider the least important gift as the most important gift. They have things backwards, don't they?

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
--These next verses pose rhetorical questions, all of which have the same answer: NO! Not everyone has the same gift. Not everyone hast the gift of tongues, nor was everyone to seek it or expect to have it. It was only given to a few people in the early church.

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.
--The word covet simply means desire. Desire the best gifts. Don't desire tongues. It is at the bottom of the list, the least important of all the gifts. Desire to have gifts such as teaching, one of the greater gifts. But then he says, "I show unto you a more excellent way." Then begins chapter 13, where Paul spends the greater part of the chapter on the subject of love, which he says is better than all the spiritual gifts put together. If you don't have love, all of your spiritual count for naught.

Coming to the end of chapter 13 and continuing on into chapter 14 he picks up again with spiritual gifts. This time he limits himself to a specific type of spiritual gift: those spiritual gifts that deal with revelation. That is, revelation from God, specifically Divine revelation in relation to the Word of God. This is the context from 1Cor.13:8 right to the end of chapter 14. If you can understand that, then everything else will fall into its rightful place.
To make that transition from love to spiritual gifts again he makes some comparisons. Paul identifies three groups of gifts: permanent, semi-permanent, and temporary.

The one permanent gift that will last forever is love. 1Cor.13:8, says love never fails. In contrast to the other three gifts mentioned it will never cease or quit, or pass away. It will never fail. In verse 13, in contrast to hope and faith, Paul says that the greatest of these is love. The greatest of all the gifts is love. The reason--it is permanent. It will last forever.

There are two semi-permanent gifts: faith and hope. They will not last forever. How long will they last? They will last only until Jesus comes again. What does the Bible say?

(2 Cor 5:7 KJV) (For we walk by faith, not by sight
--When Jesus comes we will no longer walk by faith for we will see him as he is. Now we walk by faith.

Heb.11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What about hope?
Rom.8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
--We have no longer any need for hope when Jesus comes. He is our hope. When he comes we have nothing left to hope for. Thus both faith and hope will end at the coming of Christ.

Now there are three temporary gifts mentioned. What are they? They are mentioned in 13:8, prophecies, tongues, (revelatory) knowledge.

When will they end? Before love, and before faith and hope. In fact they have already ended. The context is revelation. When the revelation of God was completed (at the end of the first century) these gifts ceased). Paul goes on to explain how they will cease, or (to us) how they ceased.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
--Prophecy was the primary gift used (see chapter 14), and thus he uses this gift as an example out of the three. The other two are not excluded however. We know in part. They had part of the Word of God. They had the Old Testament. There was more of God's revelation coming to them. The Bible was not yet complete. Until the time that it would be complete God gave them these revelatory gifts: prophecy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge. They would all die out when revelation was completed or perfected. But until then it was the way that God ordained that God should speak to them for a temporary period of time. That is why he says, "we prophecy in part." It was to make up the Word of God that they were still lacking, i.e., the knowledge contained in the rest of the New Testament.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
--"That which is perfect" can only refer to one thing. I have already shown you context. The context determines largely the meaning. The context is revelation--the Word of God. The Greek word "that" is neuter, making it impossible to refer to Christ, or "His" Coming. The word is neuter. The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to put a neuter pronoun for the Greek speaking people for a purpose. That they would understand that this was not speaking of Christ, but the Word of God. It would be completed soon (the word perfect means complete). Thus it could be read:

When that (the Word) is complete, then that which is in part (prophecy, tongues, revelatory knowledge), shall be done away. History verifies this. At the end of the first century, when the Bible was completed with the completion of the Book of Revelation, tongues had already died out. There was no more need for them. They were the temporary gifts, used for a temporary period of time in history that had now fulfilled their purpose. By the end of the first century they had died out.
DHK

 

Briguy

What you stated about 1cor13:8-10 would be fully correct if Paul then in the folowing chapter didn't tell the Corithians to desire spiritual gifts. These gifts that you speak of; that you claim are done away with are stated in 1Cor12:7 as manifestaions of the spirit. I know we have the gospel it is the power of God unto salvation these gifts do not save us. But these operations are a gift from God. Are you stating that we no longer can heal,there are no miracles left in the church today,we can no longer discern spirits to see if they be of God or not, no wisdom, no faith. This may be the reason so many see us a powerless. We are scared to use what we have. According to 1Cor14:2 Singer was correct in his claim of the use of tongues. I have once spoke spanish and interpeted into english and back again. Where does it say that tongues was a sign for the unbeleiving Jew only.Yes i think there is a great misuse of spiritual gifts.

 

Time, I have no time(pun) right now but I will say that I only believe tongues, interpretations, miracles and healings are gone. The service gifts remain. More to come.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Briguy

Look forward to your post

 

Hrhema:
Jesus was an ANER a man. He was a male. The word perfect in I Cor. 13 is in the neuter gender case. It is obvious Jesus being a man or aner could not be in the neuter gender.

This cannot be twisted. Jesus was a man. If Jesus were in the neuter gender, you would have the scoop of all time.

 

I agree with that statement. Everything that we need to know about God is contained within the Word of God. The answers are in the Bible. Read Psalm 119. Every verse except for two (and there are 176 of them) speak of the Word of God. We are to measure everything against God's Word: every experience, every doctrine, teaching, etc.

If the "book form" is not clear it is only because of your lack of diligence in study. Paul said that the Bereans were noble because they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether what he was saying was according to the Word of God or not. That is our duty. Paul commended the Bereans for that. He didn't praise them for praying about doctrine, but rather studying about it.

You are beginning to sound like a Sufi mystic, or a Hindu guru, or a Buddhist monk. What do they all have in common? The spirit is more important than the book. The experience is more important than the doctrine. In each religion, they strive to have that experience, that time where: when they had a need God met them, and met their need. He helped them. Some of them call their ecstatic experience "nirvana." It is not Biblical, and their god is a false god. Just because one prays, and is "helped" does not mean that their experience is Biblical. Many unsaved have religious experiences. Most cults start that way.

"When all else fails" then Singer, consult the Book even more. That is where you will find Jesus. That is where God will reveal Himself to you.

1John 5:14--Ask according to the will of God.
John 16:24--Ask in Jesus name
Mat.21:22--Ask in faith
James 4:2,3--Ask for the right things.

"Where's our right to petition God?" We don't have such rights. It is a privilege to come before the throne of grace in a time of need. We don't deserve the grace of God. We have no rights. We deserve only the condemnation of God. Were it not for the great love of God, we would all suffer in Hell today. Thank God for His great grace that He has bestowed on all who believe.

Lean not unto your own understanding. Search the Bible and find out what God's understanding is. The Bible interprets itself. There is no excuse for laziness in Bible study. Don't blame lack of Bible study on prayer. Prayer doesn't bring you a knowledge of the Bible. We all need to pray. But the Lord also put a great emphasis on searching and studying the Scriptures.

Prayer without the Bible is foolhardy. It is prayer without Christ. Christ is revealed to us through the Scriptures. God speaks to us through the Scriptures. Conversation is not just one way. As you talk to God (prayer), you must allow Him to talk to you (through His Word). The one goes with the other.

Josh.1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Good question!

You failed to answer Brian's question. Prayer does no good without the Scriptures. Read Acts 17:11. Paul did not commend the Bereans for their prayer when they came to a decision concerning doctrine.

Often Mormon missionaries have knocked on my door. They invariably ask as they leave: "May we pray with you," or at least, "Will you pray about it?" My answer is always no! There are things I don't need to pray about. I don't need to pray about believing in a "Jesus" who was conceived by a sexual union between a god and a godess from another planet. Do you need to pray about whether you should believe that or not? I hope not. I tell them that I will pray for them, but not with them. And I will never pray about accepting false doctrine. I don't have to pray about tongues. The Bible clearly teaches that it is not for today, and what goes on in the name of tongues today is not of God. There is nothing to pray about. Study the Word. Seek the Scriptures. That is where you will find the answers.
DHK

 

When I began studying the subject of tongues some years ago, I wasn't coming from a specific position. I just wanted to figure out what the Bible says about this issue. It would have been impossible for me to 'twist' anything to meet what I believed, because my study was for the very purpose of trying to determine what I SHOULD believe. This is contrast to people who have spoken in 'tongues,' who then go to the Bible to find support for what they have already decided to believe. Which of the two of us has the motive to 'twist Greek or Hebrew or any other language to meet what they believe?' I certainly don't.
It's sad to say, but tongues speakers defending tongues always remind me of atheist scientists defending evolution. They start with, "There is no God, so evolution must have happened." Because of this, everywhere they look they find evidence for evolution, even though it's not really there. In the same way, tongues speakers say, "My experience feels too good to be wrong. Therefore tongues must be of God." Then they go to the Bible and find evidence to support tongues, even though it's not really there. Your little 'analysis,' which completely ignores all the specific points I raised, is a classic illustration of this.
People use words for reasons, and the Holy Spirit uses words more carefully than any human. Paul, inspired by the HS, used specific words, specific tenses of verbs, and specific grouping of terms to indicate a different ending point for tongues than for knowledge and prophecy. If you can explain how all these specific usages can be reconciled with a common ending for tongues, prophecy and knowledge, when alternate words and phrasing would have expressed that idea much more clearly, then please do so. If you cannot, then force yourself to consider the possibility that what you believe is wrong.